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Div 3 senior football

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Well said upyourgame!!!!!!

Down18 (Down) - Posts: 12 - 04/09/2013 16:01:56    1475142

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Despite our quite obvious differences of opinion DunDeal, I fully respect your choice to come on here and address the stuff I said. Fair play to you, you've given the County Board a voice for the ordinary people outside of club committee members to listen to.

I still hold grave reservations, and far be it from your job to put my mind at ease, but just to respond to the points you've made...

1. With regard to squads sizes, I take your point. Ballykinlar are to my knowledge the only club in the league not to fulfil a fixture. The point I was trying to make is that at championship level, if the scenario occurs that a team such as Bright have a championship match coinciding with what is being purported was a wedding in Portugal where up to, say for arguments sake, five team members were set to attend, then they are not going to have the man power that a senior club would have where they can dip into the reserves or thirds teams. Mayobridge had 19 substitutes warming up at half time in Hilltown the other night. 19 showing up for one game at junior level in a year would be a feat for some clubs. And if the county board fails to open its eyes and see that as a problem in running the JFC in the format they've ran it this year, then I argue that the problem lies with the County Board.

2. I appreciate you putting that email into the public domain. I would have obviously expected chairmen of the clubs involved to have been contacted over the issue. The grievance I have, and where for the ordinary person with an active interest in junior football within the county would possibly agree, is that had this been a senior championship issue, that email or news with regard to the matter would have been put on the county website at this stage. As I was trying to outline, my fear is that junior football as a general rule is at best put on the back burner and at worst overlooked from time to time.

3. It sounds to me here that you've more or less agreed that, if the County Board hasn't been making the rules up as they go along, that they have at least failed in implementing the understanding of these rules in a clear and concise manner across all active and participating clubs in the tournament.

4. You yourself quoted in your response to me to deal with reality and live in the real world . I applaud your bravado. My issue is this, if you're gonna sit there and tell me that this real world you talk about doesn't involve those clubs who can stump up cash for the county board at whim being offered favourable treatment in relation to that which smaller less affluent, less contributory clubs receive over a wide range of issues which include the favourable treatment in matters such as this, then I think it is you and not me who needs a dose of reality. And if that slurs the good people of the county board then so be it, this is an open forum and I'm entitled to my opinion. I know what way the world works, as do you by the sound of it, but don't insult the intelligence of anyone here to suggest for one minute that that doesn't go on. It's a fact of life, we don't like it, but seemingly we have to deal with it.

the_wanderer (Down) - Posts: 12 - 04/09/2013 16:03:17    1475144

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so there you have it in a nut shell, if you know the rules don't play the game.

calculating and gamesmanship or cute heures who know the rules?. scoring an advantage off the field of play to try get into a semi final ahead of another team who should be there on merit on the field of play. and a small club getting a penalty cos they couldn't field.

I hope dromara get justice on the field.....

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 04/09/2013 16:13:14    1475155

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As a South Down neutral reading these posts over the last couple of days I can't see the logic in why posters are having a pop at Drumaness who I am led to believe had a request to change the Bright game to the Friday night to accommodate a wedding in Bright however the reason Drumaness could not change is because they had a wedding on the Friday with a number of players attending. I also am lead to believe that Drumaness travelled to play the game only to be informed that Bright were only able to gather 11 or 12 players only an hour before the throw in so I assume Bright were still intending to field right up to the last minute, So why slate a team who were not able to change a game in which they had no obligation to do so against Bright who they had beat in the league comfortably by 24 points on the 2nd August. Drumaness seem to be getting hammered from all angles without reason I would also imagine if the same situation happened involving any other teams you would still require a playoff game.
Maybe the JFC should be 4 group of 3 with the winner going through to avoid similar issues from 2014.

Down12345 (Down) - Posts: 1 - 04/09/2013 17:21:08    1475217

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Well folks - i've stayed quiet for a while and let others have a go. Despite banter and debate unfortunately there still has not been a solution in sight. So lets take stock of things as new readers may need a quick update.
Bright did not field aganist Drumaness last Sunday. It seems there can be no Bright v Drumaness refixture as both Drumaness and County Board have accepted the fact that Bright did not field and County Board have awarded Drumaness 2 points for the victory with a winning margin of +5 which Drumaness have accepted as the "victory" was needed. Where does that leave us now? Dromara have 4 points and Drumaness have 4 points. The scoring points differential between the two teams which should have been the separator has been flatly rejected by both County Board and Drumaness and a playoff set up for Sunday week even though under normal rules Dromara go into the semifinal as the best 4th placed team on scoring points differentials where two teams from different groups are tied.
Page after page has been written and one would have thought a consensus agreement would have emerged by now. It looks that we are still no where near a solution. Then is it safe to say that the County Board are still in a dither about this when we, the All Seeing Eyes and Fonts of All Knowledge haven't come up with a solution. No it is not. County Board sanctioned a playoff. County Board are happy and have made it public now via an email that was sent to clubs stating that a playoff is their solution. Drumaness have gratefully accepted this because it means they can get to a semi final by beating Dromara by 1 point when a massive points victory would have been needed against Bright.
Any new views gladly accepted.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 04/09/2013 18:46:47    1475271

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anduna, there is only one solution Dromara should appeal all the way to Croke Park as the CB have ignored their own competition rules either through ignorance, stupidity or fear. Remember the saying "dont bite the hand that feeds you"

allseeingeye (Down) - Posts: 65 - 04/09/2013 21:42:48    1475427

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allseeingeye, we need to be aware of the limitations of the appeals process. Dromara are not in a position to appeal "all the way to Croke Park". Protocol dictates that one can only appeal one level up plus one. So if hypothetically, Dromara appeals to the CB and the decision goes against them, Dromara can appeal to the Ulster Council. If the decision still goes against them then thats the end of the matter. Alternatively, if the Ulster Council ruled for Dromara, the CB would have the option of an appeal to Central Council to overturn the Ulster Council ruling.

You also refer to the CB ignoring their own

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 05/09/2013 10:07:32    1475515

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Sorry, hit the wrong key!! I was saying - alleseeingeye, you refer to the CB breaking their own competition rules - I think the competition rules are key to the whole issue. Look, the GAA is amateur in name only - it does actually have a comprehensive set of rules covering the vast majority of situations (including this one).Individual counties can rely on those rules or use their own rules - if they use their own rules, properly drawn up and implemented, then those rules prevail. Historically the CB have operated a +5 system for a no field in both our leagues and in these mini league style championship competitions - thats a Down rule. An earlier post referred to a Down byelaw that catered for a playoff in situations where the +5 rule materially affected a Clubs league/championship position. If thats the case, and that rule exists, then its game over for Dromara (or should I say game on for Dromara!). But do Down have other rules? Different rules for leagues and maybe different again for Championship? And different for Junior championship , intermediate and senior? And how are those rules drawn up and implemented? I simply dont know but I believe that it is incumbent on the CB to make the basis of this particular determination absolutely clear, and late though it is in the season (which is actually a busy time for the rule book)to publish the rules under which our Down competitions are ran. And it is worth remembering, the GAA rules make it mandatory for the rules to be properly drawn up and implemented BEFORE the competition and not to effect changes during competitions - thats an over-riding rule of the GAA.

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 05/09/2013 11:01:53    1475555

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Dundeal, im fully aware of how the appeal system works, but I have no doubt that the Ulster Council will uphold any Dromara appeal

allseeingeye (Down) - Posts: 65 - 05/09/2013 11:24:31    1475574

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Dundeal I posted before your last post. You are right we need to see the rules which hopefully weren't drafted last Sunday night

allseeingeye (Down) - Posts: 65 - 05/09/2013 11:38:54    1475586

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Dundeal - give us your call on this. Playoff or no playoff?. Please state your reasons either way.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 05/09/2013 11:41:24    1475589

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Anduna, I see Dromara appealing to the CB, if they havent already done so. Knowing the CB, they will stick. So Dromara will go to the Ulster Council who will want to see chapter and verse of the rules under which this particular JFC is run. And when its all put down in black & white (evidenced fact and evidenced fact only), the UC will have no option but to side with Dromara's position. And the CB will be happy with that becasue that will close this rather unpleasant can of worms which has maybe rather hastily and unwittingly been opened.

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 05/09/2013 11:56:08    1475602

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Thanks Dundeal

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 05/09/2013 12:02:27    1475609

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Any potential timeframe for appeal and counter appeal? May not suit St Pauls keeping them waiting as traditionally many of their younger players go to university across the pond and may well be unavailable.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 05/09/2013 13:01:33    1475680

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y can drumaness not play bright what have the count board and drumaness to lose.if both of them say that drumaness gets 2 points/ for win plus 5 and they agree then dromara go through. what is wrong by making bright play drumaness. I believe bright is willing to do ???
is drumaness afraid to play bright,r do they see a easy way out.
what is pay back everyone is talking about, what hold have drumaness over county board???
simple way out of this refix fixture

racing (Down) - Posts: 11 - 05/09/2013 15:32:52    1475870

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good input from dundeal, thanks for taking the time to inform us all

i think dromara are being shafted, in my opinion

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 05/09/2013 15:36:52    1475876

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Lads, see the Rule 6.20 (5) exception to part C (1) pages 87 & 88 of the GAA Official Guide 2013. Hope this will end the debate.

(1) A County Committee shall organise its
Championships on a Knock-Out, League, or a

Combination of League and Knock-Out basis.

(2) A County may be divided into districts for these

Competitions.

(3) A County Committee shall arrange its draws to

permit Byes in the first rounds only, unless prior

approval for proposed divergence has been given by

Central Council.

(4) The Committee-in-Charge shall draw up and

approve all other Regulations governing the

Organisation of a Championship, in advance of its

commencement. A Regulation once adopted shall

remain in force unless altered or deleted by a simple

majority of those present, entitled to vote and

voting.

Alterations may be considered only on an annual

basis.

(5) If a Championship is partly organised on a League

basis, the following Regulations shall apply:

(a) League results shall be credited as follows: 2

points for a win, and one for a draw.

(b) If a Team is Disqualified or Retires during the

course of the League Stage, its played Games

shall stand and its unplayed Games shall be

awarded to the Opposing Teams.

(c) Except where provided for otherwise in County

Bye-Law or in Competition Regulation, when

Teams finish with equal points for Qualification

for the Concluding Stages, or for Promotion

or Relegation, the tie shall be decided by the

following means and in the order specified:

(i) Where two Teams only are involved - the

outcome of the meeting of the two Teams

in the previous game in the Competition;

(ii) Scoring Difference (subtracting the total

Scores Against from total Scores For

(iii) Highest Total Score For;

(iv) A Play-Off.

Exceptions to (c):

(1) In relation to means (ii) and (iii) above,

if the accumulated scores of a team, so

involved, are affected by a disqualification,

loss of game on a proven objection,

retirement or walk over, the tie shall be

decided by a Play-Off.

Square ball (None) - Posts: 62 - 05/09/2013 18:28:00    1476035

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Square Ball - that's the rule in question OK - straight out of the official guide. But before you contend that this rule should close the matter, maybe you should read the rule a little more closely. There is an important condition to the application of this rule which I think you have missed . Read it again & maybe you will understand the issue in question and why it has generated so much debate on this forum.

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 05/09/2013 21:13:11    1476163

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I think this rule says it all

(4) The Committee-in-Charge shall draw up and

approve all other Regulations governing the

Organisation of a Championship, in advance of its

commencement. A Regulation once adopted shall

remain in force unless altered or deleted by a simple

majority of those present, entitled to vote and

voting.

Alterations may be considered only on an annual

basis

allseeingeye (Down) - Posts: 65 - 05/09/2013 21:34:06    1476179

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Dundeal - give us all a clue? From my reading of the rule i think the crucial point is the +5 scoring margin awarded to Drumaness. The official GAA rule just awards a victory worth two league points but Drumaness got a brucey bonus of +5 due to an internal Down competition rule.
Therefore we are back to Down County Board making a mess of the rule. There should been no scoring margin awarded. If no score was recorded then and only then could Drumaness argue for the playoff.
Are you in the legal profession by any chance?

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 05/09/2013 21:46:16    1476186

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