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Div 3 senior football

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If Drumaness and Dromara are to play off then this stinks to the heavens.

Yet again the smaller rural clubs are being sh*t on and it seems to be that clubs with members in officialdom seem to be pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Drumaness should have played Bright on the dates suggested by Bright (who are still willing to play the match I am told)or else take the chance with the 0-5 to 0-0 option which they clearly knew would be the case under the JFC competition rules.

They were probably hoping that dromara and ardglass would draw which they very nearly did (Dromara winning by a point). And also hoping Aughilsnafinn v Killyleagh game would be close one way or other. Killyleagh won by 6 or 7.

Had the Finn beaten killyleagh and/or Mitchels beaten Teconnaught you can bet your last penny that there would have been no five way play off.

Dromara should be the best runner up under competition rules and anything other than that is a serious precedent which will have all sorts of ramifications in the league also.

Last year and this year JFC games were moved for Ballykinlar as teams wanted to play them than run the risk of a forfeit result.

Ballykinlar v Aghaderg on sunday was dead rubber and them not fielding was inconsequential as was St Pauls v St Michaels and even Dundrum v Ballymartin, clubs should not be hammered as its not their fault they cant field, its a volunteer sport after all. the £100 fine and the forfeit result is in the rules and so they should be applied accordingly. This should be changed to expulsion from the following seasons championship or a 0-20 to 0-0 as suggested but the fine should not put the clubs that don't field in financial diffs.

It seems to me Drumaness took a gamble and it did not come off and now (if this is true)they have run back to daddy to get something done about it.

However I have yet to see official word on this and if this is not official any moves for a play off should be shelved for the reasons stated.

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 03/09/2013 18:01:07    1474353

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Perhaps someone is calling in the loan????

allseeingeye (Down) - Posts: 65 - 03/09/2013 20:58:35    1474523

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Sorry - i had Aghaderg winning the league tonight prematurely. They duly beat St Michaels and now only need one point from any of 4 matches - Ardglass, Killyleagh, Dromara or Ballykinlar. It is a forgone conclusion. Not like the Junior Championship.

Any more word on the Junior Championship? It seems this competition is creating all the interest judging by the numberer of posts. I cant see nor hear anything of the Intermediate or the Senior Championships - they appear to be lifeless at the minute.

The Junior Championship seems to have divided opinion with some siding with Dromara and then others saying Drumaness deserve the playoff. Perhaps there should be a poll created like the one on the homepage asking about James McCartan.

Here is the question - Should Dromara be made playoff against Drumaness for the 4th semi-final place in the Junior Championship? A Yes B No

Lets ask the audience.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 03/09/2013 20:59:18    1474525

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No they shouldn't have to, rules and rules and can't be changed to suit one team. I'm sure if Dromara were in Drumaness' situation there would be no play off!!

Down18 (Down) - Posts: 12 - 03/09/2013 21:12:58    1474545

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Another day - On reflection (and contrary to what I advocated in earlier posts) the only solution to this sorry state is for Drumaness to play Bright and to fulfill the fixture list that was agreed by all clubs at the start of the competition. The rules legally cannot be changed.

We need to set Dromara aside - they are currently just an interested onlooker - they have done absolutely nothing wrong. They therefore cannot be penalised in any shape or form.

Drumaness must play and beat Bright for Drumaness to have 4 points and then and only then will the points differential become important. The +5 Drumaness got for Bright not fielding is taken off Drumaness and therefore Drumaness start the match with + 13 which was the way it was before this all occurred. They therefore have to beat Bright by +21 to overhaul Dromara's +33.

The only way Dromara can come back into the picture is if Drumaness win the Bright match by exactly 20 points. 19 or less Dromara progress, exactly 20 a playoff, 21+ Drumaness progress.

If the County Board insist on a Dromara v Drumaness playoff then Dromara should refuse and go to whatever lengths they have to to stop such a match.

What everyone - including myself - did not see or ignored or simply forgot about is Drumaness can now progress to a semifinal by winning a match by just one point if they play and beat Dromara which is a damned side easier than winning a match by 21 points or better which is what they would have had to do if they played Bright. I now actually believe that Drumaness came to this conclusion and are trying to force the County board into something that it fundamentally wrong. Boy are they quick thinkers and shrewd tacticians.

the_wanderer had it right all along when he said:

"why would and how could the Co Board let themselves be held to ransom by any club? How can Drumaness have it both ways. Refuse to accept a fixture alteration request then cry foul when another team qualifies for the knockout stages? If that's the case then this thing really does reek of, at the very best, unsportsmanship and opportunism on the part of Drumaness and negligibilty and favouritism on the part of our darling County Board. There is absolutely no way Drumaness should get away with that."

PLAY THE DRUMANESS V BRIGHT MATCH AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. If Drumaness happen to beat Bright by 21+ points then they deserve their semi-final place and I'm sure Dromara would not begrudge them that.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 04/09/2013 09:45:59    1474665

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My god some of you people are just crazy!! How can someone try and justify Bright when they were the ones not to field! 'Drumaness should play Bright on the dates suggested by Bright' - NO THEY SHOULDNT - the date was set and Bright refused to play, Drumaness were well within their rights not to change it.

The rule is that if the +5 for non fielding of a team MATERIALLY AFFECTS the outcome of a league or group then a play off must ensure. In this case the relevant teams are Drumaness and Dromara - Bright no longer have any part of this due to their refusal to field.

RedAdmiral (None) - Posts: 85 - 04/09/2013 09:52:33    1474668

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red admiral

you forgot to add the bit or risk the forfeit !! don't take things out of context to try and make a point

change the fixture or take the risk of forfeit result. you cant have it both ways.

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 04/09/2013 10:19:27    1474696

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The rule is that if the +5 for non fielding of a team MATERIALLY AFFECTS the outcome of a league or group then a play off must ensure.


where is this rule by the way ?

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 04/09/2013 10:21:43    1474701

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Where I'm glad to see you've changed your mind anduna, I still have reservations in regard to your solution. EIREANNACH summed the whole thing up perfectly by suggesting that what this whole affair is beginning to look like is a case of Drumaness taking a gamble, that gamble not paying off, and running to the County Board, knowing that they hold sway within, demanding they be bailed out out and the county board duly obliging. Believe me, the same would not have been done for a Dromara, a Bright, a St Michaels. Fair play to Drumaness helping out the county board whenever they can, but that should not carry any influence in the running of what is to these lads playing and management teams, the premier competition open to them each year. Simply for their downright arrogance, any just minded individual would have to agree that Drumaness should lay in the bed of their own making, take it on the chin, dust themselves down, I'd go as far as apologise (not likely), and have a crack again next year.

Just to point out too, that if the game between Drumaness and Bright was to go ahead, and Drumaness did win that game by 20 points exactly, it would only be brought to a playoff if there was a similar points scored between Dromara and Drumaness. Ie with Dromara sitting on a points scored of 58, if Drumaness got to 59 but still with a points diff of 20 then Drumaness would qualify.

the_wanderer (Down) - Posts: 12 - 04/09/2013 10:22:05    1474702

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If Dromara succumb to pressure and play Drumaness in a playoff match then they are the crazy ones. There is no call for them to be part of a fudged solution. They can hold their heads high. Under the rules of the competition they are the rightful semifinalist.

What would you take? - a match to win by one point or a match where you have to win by 21 points - it is actually a no brainer. I wish the rest of you would wake up to this. If I were Drumaness i would take my chances in a playoff where i only had to win by 1 point. They have shrewdly manipulated the situation around to where they are the sinned against team and a sizeable majority of you are being blinded by that.

The County Board have screwed up massively and they are behaving like idiots in forcing such a playoff match solution on Dromara. I admit originally i advocated the playoff but on analysing the facts and listening to others i have changed my mind which i am entitled to do. I wish i saw it originally like the_wanderer. He got it right.

Can i repeat DROMARA DID NOTHING WRONG. We all need to get behind Dromara and show our support for them. If Drumaness beat Bright in a rearranged fixture by 21 points then more power to them. Only then will they deserve their place in the semifinal.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 04/09/2013 10:33:08    1474724

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I would be interested to see the full rules for the Junior Championship. I do not think our glorious leaders would have thought through how points differential is actually applied and all the intricacies of it. They would most probably view +20 points for what it is and not how it was arrived at taking into account points scored for and points conceded against. Points differential is actually a tricky affair come to think of it.
Where does goals come into it. Is it better for example for say 50 points to be made up of 13 goals and 11 points (24 scores) or 12 goals and 14 points (26 scores). Too messy. +20 is simply +20. I'd doubt if County Board had the brains to delve into it at such fine a detail.
See the mess they made with +5 points for a forfeited win.

anduna (Down) - Posts: 210 - 04/09/2013 11:01:05    1474767

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Anduna you either have a hyperactive imagination or too much time on your hands. Also you appear to have changed your mind since hearing about the dogs on the streets saying that Bright had forewarned both Drumaness and the county board of being unable to fulfil this fixture and requested it to be changed. As both never agreed to it for whatever reason, (I'll leave it your your imagination but previous posts sounds plausible) then Bright forfeited the game and took the punishment by way of the fine and the loss of the two points. I cant imagine forcing any team to replay a previously conceded game otherwise you are also into the scenario of forcing teams to replay and fulfill conceded games in the league if it affect positions there. If this is what you are suggesting ( the abolishion of teams to forfeit games) then leagues will be never ending as it will have to continue until all games are played. Totally unrealistic. As I said before I think the only resolution to this is for the County Board to wise up to the actions of Drumaness (only alledged I add) and continue with the draw for the semis. Drumaness should then just put it down to bad luck, and put their efforts into seeking a change to the tournament for next year.

Upyourgame (Down) - Posts: 15 - 04/09/2013 11:22:35    1474800

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Anduna, you would appear to be relishing this saga - you're probably a silly wee soap fanatic and have all the time in the world to keep up to date with what happens in Albert Square, Rosmamund Street and Carrigstown. Which is a world apart from the County Board folks who are mainly made up of good people who give any free time they have voluntarily to the benefit of all the Clubs in Down - I would bet you are giving up someone elses time to sit and snipe behind the anonomity of a computer screen!! If the CB have made a mistake, well so be it - sometimes we dont have time to fully research or consider all of the implications of a decision which has to be made quickly especially when we are trying our best to juggle a busy lifestyle of family commitments, work commitments and GAA club and county activity. And if the CB need time to reconsider this and then have to change their current determination,they will come up with a sensible solution which is in keeping with the rules and they certainly dont need any input from the likes of you or your childish co-contributors.So why dont you just crawl back into your hole and let those who have a genuine interest sort the issue out.

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 04/09/2013 12:29:07    1474878

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Eirennach it was in the County Bye Laws that used to be on the County wesbite but are no longer there!! Cant prove it to you unfortunately but i can assure you it is the most recent Bye Laws issued by the County Board.

RedAdmiral (None) - Posts: 85 - 04/09/2013 12:30:14    1474881

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Dundeal - while I agree with your argument in theory (County Board members are for the most part well meaning voluntary individuals, who give up their free time to ultimately progress The GAA and its games in the county, and are essential to the maintenance of any competition and administration within that county) I have issues with the County Board with regard to this matter. I'm going to point a few out to you and I'd be quite happy to read a reply, assuming you are either a County Board member or at least someone who finds sympathy for them in this matter.

1. The League Format at Championship simply does not work at Junior Level within the County, when you consider that A) Of the twelve teams involved in the Junior Championship, say six of them are seriously seriously struggling to get fifteen players on to a field week in week out and B) This being the case, the decision to stage a mini league system prior to knockout becomes threatened by a high likelihood of unfulfilled fixtures.

2. And this links with point one, I fear there is an element of "dismissiveness" at County Board level to Division 3 / Junior Clubs in comparison to their Senior and even Intermediate colleagues. A sort off, sort it out amongst yourselves kind of attitude. Highly de-motivating for anyone associated with the clubs in question, because the likelihood is that it is indeed these clubs that need more help than most. This begs the question, if this scenario had have happened in the Senior Championship, with Burren or Mayobridge or Castlewellan or Bryansford, would there be the same silence from the County Board - three days now after this was brought to light and still no firm line as to what's happened, what's going to happen and why it's going to happen.

3. If, indeed, the County Board have sanctioned this playoff match, I fear they have done so under a make the rules as you go along strategy. If this is the case, and I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong here, but if it is the case, then as a voluntary investor into Club Down, I'd be severely disappointed that the County Board didn't admit their mistake. Like you said, we are all human and each has our own limitations, but if an error has occurred at Co Board level then I'd expect them to hold their hands up and not try and scuttle about trying to cover their tracks.

4. The age old question of favouritism has reared it's head again. It's a widely known fact that Drumaness are more of an asset to the County Board than most other clubs participating in the Junior Championship. Again, I'd be seriously concerned if I thought that that was affecting the progression of any other team in a Gaelic Football Tournament, after all football is played on the pitch not behind closed doors in a committee or treasury room.

There are further minor details with regard to this matter that I could raise in relation to the County Boards management of this matter but again, human error is more likely to blame and so wouldn't want to pin anything on any one person in particular. but those are my main concerns.

the_wanderer (Down) - Posts: 12 - 04/09/2013 13:31:58    1474960

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DoneDeal it is good to finally hear of a county board members viewpoint, assuming from the tone of your posting that you are indeed so. I take point with your response though when you say to the posters on this forum "why dont you just crawl back into your hole and let those who have a genuine interest sort the issue out". A very arrogant response indeed. I think that the reason why people are commenting on this forum is out of interest in what is happening fueled by the silence from the county board. Would it have been too hard to have posted a message on the official county website explaining the situation, the outcome and the reason for the outcom, but from history club teams in Division 3 rarely if ever are afforded any time from the county board.

Also and I repeat everything is from the dogs in the street due to silence from the county board, but if the county boards response was to arrange a playoff match involving Dromara and Drumaness, overturning all rules relating to the abilty of club teams to forfeit a match if they are unable to field and the 5 points compensation award to the fielding team (with dramatic consequences for all teams in league and championship in all divisions) then I dont have much confidence in the county board to sort this issue out.

I would also like to know DoneDeal if you could clarify if any attempts had been made by Bright to rearrange this match in advance. If so and it was not agreed to by Drumaness and the county board and both knew Bright would not field, then it means both were in acceptance of the 2 match points and the 5 compensation points being awarded so why is there now a problem.

Upyourgame (Down) - Posts: 15 - 04/09/2013 14:40:44    1475042

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the_wanderer, - a well written & thoughtful contribution, albeit stinging in CB critism and laced with a large dose of pro junior/small club rhetoric'

Regarding the points you make and in the order you make them:-

1. I am not aware of 6 clubs struggling to get 15 each week - B'kinlar have had their problems this year but they are the only ones - the rest have managed to field, possibly weak, teams but at least all the lads got their game. And when Round 1 championship came along, all Clubs managed to handsomely field 15 enthusiastic players! The issue arises when teams are being asked to fulfil fixtures which are actually meaningless to THEM - and thats a different problem and one not unique to the JFC - that happens at SFC/IFC as well and the same propensity exists for no show. So where's the problem? Is it with the system, the CB or the Club? I would suggest the Clubs have to examine their conscience.

2. There has been no silence from the CB on this issue and your comments are obviously in ignorance of the below email from the CB which clearly sets out the direction of the CB - this was sent in a timely fashion to all Clubs still involved in the JFC

From: Paul Blaney <[email protected]>
Date: 2 September 2013 14:42
Subject: JFC Play-off
A chara, there will be a Play-Off between Dromara and Drumaness for thebest Runner-Up spot in the JFC . The non-fielding of Clubs yesterdayand the fact that both Clubs are equal on points we cannot usescore difference to determine the best placed Runner-up. This game will take place on Sunday Sept 15th at a neutral venue. Also the Draw for the Semi-finals will now not take place until after the Play-Off.
Is mise, Pól Bléine


Regarding your points about treatment of larger Clubs vs smaller Clubs - that has been the subject of much debate over many years on several fronts - finances/tickets etc etc etc. But we have to deal with reality & live in the real world - the larger Clubs have more clout - why? - because they are a larger Club!!! Its down to simple democracy and the focus of the small club must be to become a large club - not sit in the corner bewailing their woes while the strong continue to trample them. And to be fair to the CB - look at the set up of the CB - one delegate from each Club, whether you are a big club or a small club - everyone has the same voice in CB admin.

3. Dealt with in part above. The CB dont make decisions up as they go along - there are rule books,precedents,county byelaws etc etc to deal with these situations. There are obviously those who disagree in interpretation of the rules and who dont agree with the decision the CB have come up with. And maybe some blame for that can be laid at the door of the CB - maybe a clear unequivocal statement of how and under what rules/byelaws they have made the decision would be helpful.

4. This is utter speculation and shame on you for raising such an accusation! If you were in any way familiar with the administration of the CB, you would be aware that different committees look after different functions. The Games Admin committee certainly dont ring up the Finance committee to see seek approval to have a Dromara & Drumaness play-off - thats absolutely ridicolous and is an awful slur on the integrity of those who give up so much voluntarily. And if the CB are indebted to Drumaness in any way, well done Drumaness for putting their money where their mouth is when so many so called "large" clubs couldnt even sell 20+ county draw tickets. All clubs, big and small, should aspire to be "Drumaness" in this regard.

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 04/09/2013 15:01:09    1475074

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red admiral

if said bye law does indeed exist then that's different

as it stands its all conjecture on here as nothing is in the public domain as official other than the JFC draw did not take place as planned so something is definitely amiss.

its a sorry state of affairs and as another has said on here the junior clubs as whole seem to get a raw deal which is not right

JFC as straight knock out seems to be easier to run

EIREANNACH (Down) - Posts: 241 - 04/09/2013 15:08:56    1475085

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upyourgame & fellow posters, I withdraw my comment about crawling back into a hole - a most regrettable and unhelpful comment made in frustration.

upyourgame, there is simply no provision to reschedule a championship match due to a wedding, whether its in Portugal or Downpatrick!! Drumaness did absolutely nothing wrong in not acceding to Brights request! And it is very unfair to accuse Drumaness of "accepting" anything in making that decision. And if in the opinion of Drumaness, that decision, rightfully made, would advantage them to the extent that a JFC semifinal spot would be available on 1 point victory over Dromara as opposed to a 20 odd point victory over Bright, then why wouldnt Drumaness play that card? Would any astute club, maybe more aware of the rules than most posters on this board, not take the same decision? Would you not?

dundeal (Down) - Posts: 27 - 04/09/2013 15:19:05    1475093

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There you have it confirmed that a request had been made by Bright to reschudle a match they knew they would have difficulty in fielding a team for, due to players having other commitments which you can't blame them for as they are unpaid amateur players. Which choice would you make if you were a player. Attend a good friends wedding in Portugal or stay at home to fulfill a fixture they had no chance of progressing from? Its not as if Bright didnt want to play the game as they had sought to reschedule it to an earlier date. Its also now apparant from DoneDeal that Drumaness were just right in exploiting the plight of Bright and had no ntention of fulfilling this fixture at a rescheduled date. Therefore most people would now say hard luck Drumaness, you took the gamble and it hasnt paid off. Tough dry your eyes. Clearly Bright not fielding has been a smokescreen to mask the point that they would be given a playoff with Dromara in which a one point victory would suffice rather than overcoming a 20 point deficit against Bright. To quote DoneDeal "Why wouldnt Drumaness play that card? Would any astute club, maybe more aware of the rules than most posters on this board, not take the same decision? Would you not?" This totally stinks of unsportsmanship and appears to be backed by the county board because as DoneDeal said in an earlier posting, all clubs should aspire to be Drumaness!!!!!!!!
At a time when the ethos and spirit of the game is called into question at county level following the Sean Cavanagh debacle, its astounding to hear the responses from DoneDeal, a county board member or spokesperson.
I wonder what Joe Brolly would make of this!!!!
Maybe someone should drop him a little tweet to take a look at this forum.

Upyourgame (Down) - Posts: 15 - 04/09/2013 15:46:18    1475122

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