National Forum

Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Who said anything about the quality of football? Stop whinging about armchair fans."
Are you one?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 17:40:38    2472452

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Are you one?"
Of course. Just like yourself.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 22/04/2023 17:53:00    2472458

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo being Seed 2 above Mayo and Tyrone is ridiculous. If Sligo win Connacht, they will fully deserve Seed 1. If they fall short, Seed 4 is a fair reflection of their league and current provincial format performance."
So if they win Connacht, because no seeding gave them an easier route to Connacht Final, they should be first seeds even though they were a Division Four team this year. But if they lose the Connacht Final they should be fourth seeds. Strange logic.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 17:57:31    2472460

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "So if they win Connacht, because no seeding gave them an easier route to Connacht Final, they should be first seeds even though they were a Division Four team this year. But if they lose the Connacht Final they should be fourth seeds. Strange logic."
Winner of Ros/Galway should be handed the Nestor Cup.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2293 - 22/04/2023 18:15:07    2472464

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo being Seed 2 above Mayo and Tyrone is ridiculous. If Sligo win Connacht, they will fully deserve Seed 1. If they fall short, Seed 4 is a fair reflection of their league and current provincial format performance."
I thought the purpose of this new championship was to do away with teams getting hammered. If Sligo go into a group as 2nd seeds with the likes of Kerry, Tyrone as 3rd seeds and maybe Derry if they're beat next week what's going to happen? Hammering's.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2290 - 22/04/2023 18:18:29    2472467

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Of course. Just like yourself."
Not like myself.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 18:51:05    2472480

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Winner of Ros/Galway should be handed the Nestor Cup."
If they're good enough they'll win it.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 18:51:59    2472481

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Replying To Saynothing:  "I thought the purpose of this new championship was to do away with teams getting hammered. If Sligo go into a group as 2nd seeds with the likes of Kerry, Tyrone as 3rd seeds and maybe Derry if they're beat next week what's going to happen? Hammering's."
Exactly. Westmeath won the Tailteann Cup. They are entering the All-Ireland series with the respect of the country. Sligo qualifying for the All-Ireland series by beating London and New York does not have the respect of the country.
Kerry shouldn't have been playing Tipperary today. From the league placings, Clare and Limerick should have been taking on Tipperary and Waterford. Kerry and Cork then against the quarter-final winners.
Sligo should have had one of Mayo or Galway on their side of the draw. All provinces should have the the top 2 in their province on different sides of the draw. That is Tyrone and Monaghan in Ulster. Leinster through luck of the draw do have Dublin and Louth on opposite sides of the draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 18:55:14    2472484

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Not like myself."
Stop lying to yourself.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 22/04/2023 19:25:04    2472501

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Exactly. Westmeath won the Tailteann Cup. They are entering the All-Ireland series with the respect of the country. Sligo qualifying for the All-Ireland series by beating London and New York does not have the respect of the country.
Kerry shouldn't have been playing Tipperary today. From the league placings, Clare and Limerick should have been taking on Tipperary and Waterford. Kerry and Cork then against the quarter-final winners.
Sligo should have had one of Mayo or Galway on their side of the draw. All provinces should have the the top 2 in their province on different sides of the draw. That is Tyrone and Monaghan in Ulster. Leinster through luck of the draw do have Dublin and Louth on opposite sides of the draw."
'Sligo qualifying for the All-Ireland series by beating London and New York does not have the respect of the country'. Do you know everyone in the country? Why don't they just pick the top 4 seeds and have 2 semi finals and a final if seeding is so vital. Seeding based on a completely different competition played under different conditions to the championship. Because they won't get as much TV revenue as this years system. Talking out of both sides of their mouth. Trying to look concerned about player welfare but adding more games to the championship. Who can afford to go to that many games? More games that will make the strong counties stronger and the weak counties weaker. An 'upgrade' on the failed Super 8s where 3/4 teams are guaranteed at least 4 more games after the provincial games finish.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 19:44:05    2472505

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "'Sligo qualifying for the All-Ireland series by beating London and New York does not have the respect of the country'. Do you know everyone in the country? Why don't they just pick the top 4 seeds and have 2 semi finals and a final if seeding is so vital. Seeding based on a completely different competition played under different conditions to the championship. Because they won't get as much TV revenue as this years system. Talking out of both sides of their mouth. Trying to look concerned about player welfare but adding more games to the championship. Who can afford to go to that many games? More games that will make the strong counties stronger and the weak counties weaker. An 'upgrade' on the failed Super 8s where 3/4 teams are guaranteed at least 4 more games after the provincial games finish."
Players wanted more games. The training to games ratio was too high. The main scheduling flaw was not allowing for a week off after the league finals. The provincial championships are playing over 6 weekends but easily could have scheduled over 5 weekends. This would have allowed for a week off after the league finals.

Week -1. League finals.
Week 0. Rest weekend.
Week 1. Connacht and Munster quarter-finals. 2 Ulster quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster preliminary rounds.
Week 2. Leinster quarter-finals and 2 Ulster quarter-finals.
Week 3. Connacht and Munster semi-finals.
Week 4. Leinster and Ulster semi-finals.
Week 5. Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster finals.
Week 6. Rest weekend.
Week 7. Start of All-Ireland group stage.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 21:13:45    2472539

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If Sligo and Clare win a provincial title, they could be home to Mayo or Tyrone in Round 1 and away to a Seed 4 in Round 2.
If Sligo and Clare lose their provincial finals, they will be home to a Seed 4 in Round 1 which will give them their best opportunity of a win.
If provincial runners-up were seeded on league placing, Sligo and Clare would have no advantage in losing a provincial final.
For provincial titles to be relevant, provincial winners should be Seed 1 as is. All others should be seeded on league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 21:57:05    2472554

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Exactly. Westmeath won the Tailteann Cup. They are entering the All-Ireland series with the respect of the country. Sligo qualifying for the All-Ireland series by beating London and New York does not have the respect of the country.
Kerry shouldn't have been playing Tipperary today. From the league placings, Clare and Limerick should have been taking on Tipperary and Waterford. Kerry and Cork then against the quarter-final winners.
Sligo should have had one of Mayo or Galway on their side of the draw. All provinces should have the the top 2 in their province on different sides of the draw. That is Tyrone and Monaghan in Ulster. Leinster through luck of the draw do have Dublin and Louth on opposite sides of the draw."
I don't think having a pop at Sligo for having an "easy" run this year to a Connacht Final is useful. Could the same be said of Kerry for many years in Munster? If Kerry were in Ulster for example would ye have won as many All Irelands? I'm not so sure.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11561 - 22/04/2023 22:14:29    2472568

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Sligo and Clare win a provincial title, they could be home to Mayo or Tyrone in Round 1 and away to a Seed 4 in Round 2.
If Sligo and Clare lose their provincial finals, they will be home to a Seed 4 in Round 1 which will give them their best opportunity of a win.
If provincial runners-up were seeded on league placing, Sligo and Clare would have no advantage in losing a provincial final.
For provincial titles to be relevant, provincial winners should be Seed 1 as is. All others should be seeded on league placing."
You are 100% correct, but one of the seed 4's could be Derry (I know it's only an if right no) but my point being there us always going to be a flaw weather it be this system or that one. Also, there is no chance in hell any team is going to go out in any final and say we don't want to win because the next stage will be easier. You want to win every final you play in and if you don't well that there is a big problem.
BTW I do love your posts most of the time you talk an awful lot of sense and that's hard got on this forum lol

farneygael (Monaghan) - Posts: 300 - 22/04/2023 22:21:51    2472574

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Put yourself in these shoes and say you don't care about winning a provisional championship

-Monaghan, this year after changing manager and being told we were going down and expecting a good number of years of decline
-Donegal after the year they have had so far. What an achievement it would be to win Ulster for those guys.
- Armagh after years of progress but yet zero progress to show for it, especially in ulster.
- Roscommon, who were the team to beat at the start of the year, then dipped and now showing that they still have it. Wouldn't they love to take a Connaught title home

That's just the Division 1 teams I mentioned, but the provisional championships are well worth winning alibite. I agree that maybe some tweeking is needed.

I certainly hope I'm alive and fit to celebrate monaghan winning their next one.

farneygael (Monaghan) - Posts: 300 - 22/04/2023 22:55:13    2472586

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Replying To farneygael:  "You are 100% correct, but one of the seed 4's could be Derry (I know it's only an if right no) but my point being there us always going to be a flaw weather it be this system or that one. Also, there is no chance in hell any team is going to go out in any final and say we don't want to win because the next stage will be easier. You want to win every final you play in and if you don't well that there is a big problem.
BTW I do love your posts most of the time you talk an awful lot of sense and that's hard got on this forum lol"
Ah yeah, they will for sure be going all out for provincial success. Just amused by the flaw and wanted to back up the point that Seed 2, Seed 3 and Seed 4 should be based on league ranking.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 23:03:29    2472587

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Players wanted more games. The training to games ratio was too high. The main scheduling flaw was not allowing for a week off after the league finals. The provincial championships are playing over 6 weekends but easily could have scheduled over 5 weekends. This would have allowed for a week off after the league finals.

Week -1. League finals.
Week 0. Rest weekend.
Week 1. Connacht and Munster quarter-finals. 2 Ulster quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster preliminary rounds.
Week 2. Leinster quarter-finals and 2 Ulster quarter-finals.
Week 3. Connacht and Munster semi-finals.
Week 4. Leinster and Ulster semi-finals.
Week 5. Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster finals.
Week 6. Rest weekend.
Week 7. Start of All-Ireland group stage."
Fair point and fair enough Legend if players want more hames. Maybe I'm being too cynical thinking they're just for more revenue. But I think more than Tailteann is needed in a season to keep the interest high in intercounty football in so-called weaker counties.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 23/04/2023 09:44:48    2472637

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Fair point and fair enough Legend if players want more hames. Maybe I'm being too cynical thinking they're just for more revenue. But I think more than Tailteann is needed in a season to keep the interest high in intercounty football in so-called weaker counties."
Counties already have Division 3 and 4 titles to go for. Fair leagues at their current levels. 12 counties started with a realistic chance of provincial success. 12 of the Tailteann counties will have a reasonable chance of success. There seems to be enough there to keep the majority of counties chasing attainable silverware.
I don't think any of the Tailteann counties will be classified as provincial challengers. They need to attain Tailteann success and build from there for provincial success.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 23/04/2023 11:59:12    2472672

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Fair point and fair enough Legend if players want more hames. Maybe I'm being too cynical thinking they're just for more revenue. But I think more than Tailteann is needed in a season to keep the interest high in intercounty football in so-called weaker counties."
Such as?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2293 - 23/04/2023 12:33:22    2472693

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Roscommon v Galway like Tyrone v Monaghan was an interesting battle. All provinces have produced interesting battles so far whether teams are qualified or not. There have been a few chastening experiences but that goes with the territory when lower league teams are getting a one off opportunity to take on higher league opponents. Tipperary and Laois can regroup at their level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 23/04/2023 20:53:23    2472950

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