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Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo for example as Seed 2 increases the risk of dead rubbers in Round 3. It is doing more harm than good and damaging for the championship."
And either way. I'm agreeing that the provincial seeding needs to change. One change here fixes this. No need for an additional change to try and over engineer something. The finalists seeding works when the provincials are seeded so anyone coming through to a final will ahve earned it by beating big teams

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/04/2023 14:24:40    2472214

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Time taken for the Provincials and proximity to the start of the All Ireland proper isn't great.

Too many games still being played in February and March. All the percentage of games being played is down at least.

Fact that league and Provincial championship matter more than the previous season's All Ireland is a weird system too."
100% agree. We play bulk of our games in Spring, and come late June July when Championship should be getting into gear on hard ground, we'll only have a handful of games left. Play early part of the year on poor ground, very few games when the ground is actually good

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/04/2023 14:33:19    2472221

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "100% agree. We play bulk of our games in Spring, and come late June July when Championship should be getting into gear on hard ground, we'll only have a handful of games left. Play early part of the year on poor ground, very few games when the ground is actually good"
That's because the clubs also need time to play their championships. The club players also deserve some decent pitches on which to play their big games.
Running the intercounty season later pushes big club matches back into winter. We've been through this so many times already.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2318 - 21/04/2023 16:08:50    2472254

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You're completely missing my point there. With seeded provincials, the likes of Sligo getting to a final without playing Ros/Mayo/Galway won't happen. If they get to a final they'll deserve it by now beating a top team, and will deserve the seeding based on that final outcome. Seeding provincials makes the 2nd seed for losing finalists work. Making the losing finalists lesser seeds than league placings from months before makes no sense.

Yes, and the other way is the case too. How about if Derry beat Monaghan in Championship, but rank below them in seeding if they lose a final? Simply, Championship form needs to have the highest ranking. The League is just the fall back for the last 7 places to fill out. It can't be the driver to reward failure in your Championship to date"
The whole point of change was so the League would become more important. It has but the provincials still hold too much sway over the All-Ireland. It's a messy format which is why so many people are unhappy with it.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 21/04/2023 16:09:27    2472255

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Something that frustrates me too is that there'd be a really good opportunity to get a better season for all if the Provincials were separated.

A big issue with the scheduling was that the qualifiers meant there was no certainty around when the county team would be playing.

If you had Provincial championships spaced out over April and May and a draw before the year starts counties would know when they could be playing and have club games scheduled with county players.

You could have a 2 tier All Ireland championship with 2 groups of 8 in each tier played through June, July and August.

Again everyone could know when they are scheduled for at the start of the year and club can be played around County and in the best time of year.

Late August and September for All Ireland quarterfinals on in each code.

October to finish club county championship.

February/March for Provincial club and Intercounty preseason.

It's a healthy calendar and with the county games more spaced out more can be seen by spectators but county players are still getting a good program of games at the best time to play games."
It would be good if Prov pairings were somehow merged into an extended group phase as well, as the league points would be ultimately counting toward the AIC playoffs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3236 - 21/04/2023 21:06:52    2472287

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "There cannot be any dead rubbers in Round 3. No situation allows it, as no matter what happens, all teams have something to play for in the final game. With 1st straight through, 2nd and 3rd going to a preliminary QF, no situation exists that a team that loses their first 2 games does not have an option of catching 3rd place. It cannot happen"
No, that's not the case. The last round of matches has Seed 1 v Seed 2. That is a dead rubber if Seed 1 has won the previous two matches and Seed 2 has lost the previous two matches. The table in that case would be:

Seed 1: 4 points
Seed 3: 2 points
Seed 4: 2 points
Seed 2: 0 points

Seed 1 is guaranteed top spot regardless of the result between Seed 3 v Seed 4 as Seed 1 has already beaten both of them and so wins any head-to-head.

Similarly Seed 2 will come last regardless of the Seed 3 v Seed 4 result as Seed 2 has already lost to both of them and so will lose any head-to-head.

So neither Seed 1 nor Seed 2 have anything to play for.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 135 - 21/04/2023 23:47:09    2472306

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "No, that's not the case. The last round of matches has Seed 1 v Seed 2. That is a dead rubber if Seed 1 has won the previous two matches and Seed 2 has lost the previous two matches. The table in that case would be:

Seed 1: 4 points
Seed 3: 2 points
Seed 4: 2 points
Seed 2: 0 points

Seed 1 is guaranteed top spot regardless of the result between Seed 3 v Seed 4 as Seed 1 has already beaten both of them and so wins any head-to-head.

Similarly Seed 2 will come last regardless of the Seed 3 v Seed 4 result as Seed 2 has already lost to both of them and so will lose any head-to-head.

So neither Seed 1 nor Seed 2 have anything to play for."
Exactly. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 2 exacerbates the possibility of a dead rubber in Round 3. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 4 however increases the possibility of everyone having something to play for in Round 3.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 11:41:55    2472354

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo for example as Seed 2 increases the risk of dead rubbers in Round 3. It is doing more harm than good and damaging for the championship."
It's damaging the championship for who? Sligo have a right to be there as first seeds if they could win Connacht or second seeds if they reach that final. This is the All Ireland Football Championship. Not a Netflix algorithm cherry picking out the most entertaining games for people to watch on their telly.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 13:22:06    2472377

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's damaging the championship for who? Sligo have a right to be there as first seeds if they could win Connacht or second seeds if they reach that final. This is the All Ireland Football Championship. Not a Netflix algorithm cherry picking out the most entertaining games for people to watch on their telly."
A route to a provincial final can be helped by the draw. There can only be one provincial winner. It is fair to seed provincial winners as Seed 1 and all others by league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 13:40:34    2472380

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Exactly. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 2 exacerbates the possibility of a dead rubber in Round 3. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 4 however increases the possibility of everyone having something to play for in Round 3."
Surely the flaw is that a "weak" provincial winner or finalist - defined as one not expected to win or be in the final! = has not only to beat one of the "strong" teams once or twice, but maybe the same team again?

The one plus about the Covid championships was that it meant that teams like Tipp and Cavan were rewarded properly for their achievement in winning their province. If Dublin get beaten in Leinster I would be just as happy to see them out of the championship as to come crawling back through the group stage.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3515 - 22/04/2023 13:43:00    2472381

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A route to a provincial final can be helped by the draw. There can only be one provincial winner. It is fair to seed provincial winners as Seed 1 and all others by league placing."
Fair for who?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 13:55:16    2472384

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's damaging the championship for who? Sligo have a right to be there as first seeds if they could win Connacht or second seeds if they reach that final. This is the All Ireland Football Championship. Not a Netflix algorithm cherry picking out the most entertaining games for people to watch on their telly."
It is damaging if they only have to beat London and NY and get the second seed even though other counties have defeat Div 1 and 2 sides to get there.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 22/04/2023 14:14:23    2472389

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Exactly. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 2 exacerbates the possibility of a dead rubber in Round 3. A weak provincial runner-up as Seed 4 however increases the possibility of everyone having something to play for in Round 3."
Yes, a weak Seed 2 has that effect but that doesn't justify, in my opinion, downgrading the losing provincial finalists just because it happens that there may be on occasion a weak team. You could equally have a provincial winner that turns out to be weak in the group stage or a weak league qualifier (e.g. possibly Donegal this year whose relatively high league ranking (10th overall) belies their current weakness). It is the championship and performance in it should trump league performance.

A way to eliminate such a dead rubber above would be to have teams separated by score difference (as is the case in the soccer World Cup) rather than head-to-head. In that case, in the scenario above, Seed 1 could be knocked off top position, if they lost to Seed 2, by the winner of Seed 3 v Seed 4. Similarly Seed 2 would have a chance to supplant the loser of Seed 3 v Seed 4 for third place.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 135 - 22/04/2023 14:40:07    2472400

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "Yes, a weak Seed 2 has that effect but that doesn't justify, in my opinion, downgrading the losing provincial finalists just because it happens that there may be on occasion a weak team. You could equally have a provincial winner that turns out to be weak in the group stage or a weak league qualifier (e.g. possibly Donegal this year whose relatively high league ranking (10th overall) belies their current weakness). It is the championship and performance in it should trump league performance.

A way to eliminate such a dead rubber above would be to have teams separated by score difference (as is the case in the soccer World Cup) rather than head-to-head. In that case, in the scenario above, Seed 1 could be knocked off top position, if they lost to Seed 2, by the winner of Seed 3 v Seed 4. Similarly Seed 2 would have a chance to supplant the loser of Seed 3 v Seed 4 for third place."
Score difference could be a league rule. Head to head is more suitable for championship. A knockout within the group format.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 14:54:57    2472404

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It is damaging if they only have to beat London and NY and get the second seed even though other counties have defeat Div 1 and 2 sides to get there."
Who is is damaging for? Armchair football fans who want to see entertaining games of higher standard football of evenly matched teams towards the end of the championship maybe? There's more games now but only after the round robin stage does the knockout football begin, arguably the best games to watch. There's 31 counties plus London and New York playing football. But the 'top' teams are given every oportunity to play as many championship games as possible so the GAA can cash in on armchair fans TV revenue. The league in bad pitches in bad weather isn't such a good indicator of how a team will play on the better pitches and weather in championship either. I'm probably too old fashined for commenting here but what's wrong with playing league, put provincial schedule within league calendar with no bearing or seeding for All Ireland. Then 8 round robin groups of 4 teams from each division. Top 2 in All Ireland Senior Championship. Bottom 2 in Tailteann. Knockout championship after that. I'll get my coat!

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 14:59:36    2472407

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Score difference could be a league rule. Head to head is more suitable for championship. A knockout within the group format."
Well, then you have to live with the chance of a dead rubber arising. The only other way to avoid it would be to change the sequence of matches after the first round has been played so that the two first round winners (assuming no draws) don't meet each other in the second round. But that brings its own problems.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 135 - 22/04/2023 15:22:45    2472412

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "Well, then you have to live with the chance of a dead rubber arising. The only other way to avoid it would be to change the sequence of matches after the first round has been played so that the two first round winners (assuming no draws) don't meet each other in the second round. But that brings its own problems."
Or, rugby-style points system?:
Bonus point for scoring a certain number of goals (e.g. two in football, four in hurling), and possibly a losing point for losing by a small margin.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3236 - 22/04/2023 15:30:51    2472415

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Replying To omahant:  "Or, rugby-style points system?:
Bonus point for scoring a certain number of goals (e.g. two in football, four in hurling), and possibly a losing point for losing by a small margin."
That will make games more defensive than they are now.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 22/04/2023 15:46:53    2472419

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Who is is damaging for? Armchair football fans who want to see entertaining games of higher standard football of evenly matched teams towards the end of the championship maybe? There's more games now but only after the round robin stage does the knockout football begin, arguably the best games to watch. There's 31 counties plus London and New York playing football. But the 'top' teams are given every oportunity to play as many championship games as possible so the GAA can cash in on armchair fans TV revenue. The league in bad pitches in bad weather isn't such a good indicator of how a team will play on the better pitches and weather in championship either. I'm probably too old fashined for commenting here but what's wrong with playing league, put provincial schedule within league calendar with no bearing or seeding for All Ireland. Then 8 round robin groups of 4 teams from each division. Top 2 in All Ireland Senior Championship. Bottom 2 in Tailteann. Knockout championship after that. I'll get my coat!"
Who said anything about the quality of football? Stop whinging about armchair fans.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 22/04/2023 16:25:27    2472427

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Sligo being Seed 2 above Mayo and Tyrone is ridiculous. If Sligo win Connacht, they will fully deserve Seed 1. If they fall short, Seed 4 is a fair reflection of their league and current provincial format performance.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/04/2023 17:37:42    2472450

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