National Forum

Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Agree.I would never write Tyrone off.Posters writing a team off that were beaten by a late goal is silly.Monaghan were class but still needed a late sucker punch to flatten Tyrone.Tyrone are like a wounded animal when written off and they have some brilliant footballers.They have probably the best goalie in the country a solid midfield and classy forwards.Write them off at your peril."
I'd say very few would write tyrone off .and they have super players through out the field. But they did empty the tank on Sunday , and were still beat by a better team on the day . A lot of games left for both teams

stoneygrey (Monaghan) - Posts: 232 - 19/04/2023 10:21:42    2471719

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Replying To eoinog:  "That's exactly my point. If Tyrone or Mayo or a similar team don't win the All Ireland then they have nothing to show for the year. There's no honour attached to losing a semi or quarter final"
For a Tyrone or Mayo I don't know if a Provincial title is much consolation either way. Yeah getting to a semi is probably a fine performance for them but they've nothing to show for it, I don't think the addition of a provincial title smooths things much.

The Provincial titles would mean a lot to the next tranche of teams more. Louths, Kildare's, Clare's, Corks, maybe Armagh. Is there an asterisk over them now if a Kerry, Tyrone, Dublin, Galway are focusing on the AI coming straight down the line.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 19/04/2023 11:43:39    2471758

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Provincial success does not guarantee All-Ireland success. What's the the longest gap from winning an All-Ireland to having won a provincial championship?
The introduction of the qualifier system (commonly known as the "back door") in 2001 enabled Galway to reach and win that year's final despite losing to Roscommon in the Connacht semi-finals; a further five teams have since claimed the All-Ireland after coming through the qualifiers (Tyrone in 2005 and 2008, Kerry in 2006 and 2009, and Cork in 2010).
Galway 2000-2001
Tyrone 2003-2005
Kerry 2005-2006
Tyrone 2007-2008
Kerry 2007-2009
Cork 2009-2010

In the qualifier era a provincial title has been won in the previous 2 years. Provincial champions of 2021, 2022 and 2023 are the most likely All-Ireland champions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 19/04/2023 16:38:45    2471819

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When the GAA was at its best was when it was simple and pure before the thirst for money got involved. Straight knockout from day 1, 4 teams in an all Ireland final. Yes that means Dublin and Kerry have a big advantage initially but it'll bring impetus back into those provinces where smaller teams will say "if we can get over Kerry/Dublin, we could have a great year". It'll open the whole thing up and make it far more exciting. A big upset will have real ramifications.

For ****heads who say "sure we'll miss out on seeing Dublin v Kerry - make the league a double league and the championship shorter.. but to be honest I lost all interest in the all Ireland series for a few years there when Dublin were winning 7 in a row. I couldn't care less about Dublin, Kerry and Mayo year in year out.

Give me an all Ireland final of Roscommon v Wexford, both counties would go mad for a month just by getting there and the spectacle would actually mean something, unlike the nonsense of the last decade.

Jjoniel79 (Monaghan) - Posts: 199 - 19/04/2023 17:04:17    2471824

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial success does not guarantee All-Ireland success. What's the the longest gap from winning an All-Ireland to having won a provincial championship?
The introduction of the qualifier system (commonly known as the "back door") in 2001 enabled Galway to reach and win that year's final despite losing to Roscommon in the Connacht semi-finals; a further five teams have since claimed the All-Ireland after coming through the qualifiers (Tyrone in 2005 and 2008, Kerry in 2006 and 2009, and Cork in 2010).
Galway 2000-2001
Tyrone 2003-2005
Kerry 2005-2006
Tyrone 2007-2008
Kerry 2007-2009
Cork 2009-2010

In the qualifier era a provincial title has been won in the previous 2 years. Provincial champions of 2021, 2022 and 2023 are the most likely All-Ireland champions."
Two of Kerry's titles therefore come with an *

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3515 - 19/04/2023 17:34:22    2471838

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Replying To yew_tree:  "To answer the title thread it all depends where you're coming from and at what stage of development you're at. I'd argue they still mean a lot but they do seem to be heading down the road of being devalued. When Mayo were winning 5 in a row Connacht titles we were told by everyone else they were worthless…

If Mayo went on to win an all Ireland, Connacht titles wouldn't even be mentioned. If we don't win the all Ireland (most likely) then looking back after the season a Connacht title would have been nice although a division 1 league is also "nice" silverware to have but bottom line failure to land the big one and the season is deemed a failure like every other year."
Correct. An Ulster last year for Derry was important for them in terms of development. A Leinster would be huge for anyone outside of Dublin. Likewise Munster outside of Kerry. A Connacht is less important to Mayo and Galway this year as both will be aiming for an AI but it was important for Galway last year.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1000 - 19/04/2023 18:43:15    2471851

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Replying To Whammo86:  "For a Tyrone or Mayo I don't know if a Provincial title is much consolation either way. Yeah getting to a semi is probably a fine performance for them but they've nothing to show for it, I don't think the addition of a provincial title smooths things much.

The Provincial titles would mean a lot to the next tranche of teams more. Louths, Kildare's, Clare's, Corks, maybe Armagh. Is there an asterisk over them now if a Kerry, Tyrone, Dublin, Galway are focusing on the AI coming straight down the line."
I think you can make the argument for an Ulster or Connacht title still mattering but not for Kerry or Dublin when they win 90% of the time. Now the provincial councils will say the other counties should pull themselves up. Leinster would be fine if Meath, Kildare, Louth, ect were competitive. The new format is a step forward but I'm not sure about linking all these competitions together. The LGFA have the right idea.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 19/04/2023 18:46:59    2471853

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Replying To hyperache:  "Qualifiers can skew things a bit because it really comes down to the draw. For example, Cork were miles off last year - watched Meath throttle them in Navan in the league and we know how far Meath are off the pace. But they went out of the Munster championship and got a qualifier run of Louth & Limerick which saw them in an All Ireland 1/4 final.

While Kildare on the other hand were beaten Leinster finalists and had to play Mayo in the qualifiers, so it really is all luck. Of course there will be exceptions, Clare's run through the all Ireland series last year was brilliant.

Since 2010, out of a possible 12 Munster titles, Kerry have won 10 (2012 and the Covid yeah being the exception). In what way is that not a problem? and it is in Leinster?

I've gone through the All Ireland series since 2010 and if you compare Munster/Leinster's appearances in All Ireland 1/4 finals, it's fairly even. There have been 23 appearances from Munster teams (Kerry, Cork, Clare & Tipperary, and 21 from Leinster (Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Laois). And outside of Dublin and Kerry since 2010, only Cork and Kildare have managed to win a game in the 1/4 final and onwards (Cork 2010 & 2012, Kildare 2010). So no Munster teams outside of Kerry have won a game in the 1/4 finals or onwards for 10 years, similar situation in Leinster. But I'm not sure how that points to Munster teams have been "competing well in the All-Ireland series".

The reality is, none of the provincials are fit for purpose, and the GAA have now made them even more pointless because they're only relevant for a couple of teams. Tyrone and Mayo not get a nice break to prepare for the All Ireland series, lovely reward for getting knocked out of their respective championships.

The problem is the structure and layout, all of the provincials bar Ulster are heavily skewed towards the bigger sides. I'm heavily in favour of a restructured championship that dumps the provincials. But I suspect and know the GAA will never go that route because there's too many people in positions of power within the provincials councils that don't want to give up their position so would never go for it. It's a shame because there is a format that works out there, the GAA just won't explore it"
Tipperary were in all ireland semi final in 2020 (but maybe you don't want to call munster final win a quarter final) but they did win a quarter final in 2016 beating Galway before losing to Mayo in a tight semi final.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3904 - 19/04/2023 19:51:41    2471865

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Agree.I would never write Tyrone off.Posters writing a team off that were beaten by a late goal is silly.Monaghan were class but still needed a late sucker punch to flatten Tyrone.Tyrone are like a wounded animal when written off and they have some brilliant footballers.They have probably the best goalie in the country a solid midfield and classy forwards.Write them off at your peril."
In the terms of winning the AI I would. 2-17 conceded on Sunday against non contender on top of the big scores they conceded against Derry,Armagh last year in the championship. The All Ireland winning Tyrone team was all solid in defence this current Tyrone team have major issues in defence.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3609 - 19/04/2023 21:28:11    2471877

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think you can make the argument for an Ulster or Connacht title still mattering but not for Kerry or Dublin when they win 90% of the time. Now the provincial councils will say the other counties should pull themselves up. Leinster would be fine if Meath, Kildare, Louth, ect were competitive. The new format is a step forward but I'm not sure about linking all these competitions together. The LGFA have the right idea."
I'd see them either have to be linked sensibly (which I don't think they are currently) or not at all. This halfway house situation does no one any favours. You always have to look at the motivation for why these things happen and it's a political decision to keep Provincial councils happy and I think it's bad for the competitions.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 20/04/2023 09:54:19    2471897

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'd see them either have to be linked sensibly (which I don't think they are currently) or not at all. This halfway house situation does no one any favours. You always have to look at the motivation for why these things happen and it's a political decision to keep Provincial councils happy and I think it's bad for the competitions."
It's a bit early for making that final verdict. It's interesting to see how Clare, Limerick, Meath, Cavan and Down get on in their efforts to make a provincial final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 20/04/2023 12:11:00    2471937

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It's a bit early for making that final verdict. It's interesting to see how Clare, Limerick, Meath, Cavan and Down get on in their efforts to make a provincial final."
I think what isn't too early to be said is that decisions are taken for the right reasons and the process that came up with this structure left a lot to be desired.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/04/2023 09:32:38    2472084

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think you can make the argument for an Ulster or Connacht title still mattering but not for Kerry or Dublin when they win 90% of the time. Now the provincial councils will say the other counties should pull themselves up. Leinster would be fine if Meath, Kildare, Louth, ect were competitive. The new format is a step forward but I'm not sure about linking all these competitions together. The LGFA have the right idea."
Something that frustrates me too is that there'd be a really good opportunity to get a better season for all if the Provincials were separated.

A big issue with the scheduling was that the qualifiers meant there was no certainty around when the county team would be playing.

If you had Provincial championships spaced out over April and May and a draw before the year starts counties would know when they could be playing and have club games scheduled with county players.

You could have a 2 tier All Ireland championship with 2 groups of 8 in each tier played through June, July and August.

Again everyone could know when they are scheduled for at the start of the year and club can be played around County and in the best time of year.

Late August and September for All Ireland quarterfinals on in each code.

October to finish club county championship.

February/March for Provincial club and Intercounty preseason.

It's a healthy calendar and with the county games more spaced out more can be seen by spectators but county players are still getting a good program of games at the best time to play games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/04/2023 09:41:05    2472086

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think what isn't too early to be said is that decisions are taken for the right reasons and the process that came up with this structure left a lot to be desired."
The biggest flaw is not using league places for seeding the provincial draws. The second flaw then is not allowing a week off after the league finals. The third flaw is seeding provincial runners-up as Seed 2. Provincial winners should be Seed 1 as is. All others should be seeded on league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/04/2023 10:18:49    2472100

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The biggest flaw is not using league places for seeding the provincial draws. The second flaw then is not allowing a week off after the league finals. The third flaw is seeding provincial runners-up as Seed 2. Provincial winners should be Seed 1 as is. All others should be seeded on league placing."
I'd agree with your first 2 flaws, but the third one isn't a flaw. It needs to be like that to reward some Championship form. It makes it far worse if it's not finalists seeded, and you go back to League. Derry could beat Monaghan in Championship, lose the final, and then be ranked lower than Monaghan a few weeks later? Come on. That's not right.

Getting to a final is rewarded as it is Championship games, and if seeded with your first 2 flaws corrected, then teams will have gained 2nd seed on merit. With those corrected, teams will see that getting to a final and getting 2nd seed at a minimum is worth it. 2nd seed will also play the 4th seed (possibly at home?) in the first match of the round robin, so a chance to get back in the saddle after their final loss.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/04/2023 12:29:06    2472152

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I'd agree with your first 2 flaws, but the third one isn't a flaw. It needs to be like that to reward some Championship form. It makes it far worse if it's not finalists seeded, and you go back to League. Derry could beat Monaghan in Championship, lose the final, and then be ranked lower than Monaghan a few weeks later? Come on. That's not right.

Getting to a final is rewarded as it is Championship games, and if seeded with your first 2 flaws corrected, then teams will have gained 2nd seed on merit. With those corrected, teams will see that getting to a final and getting 2nd seed at a minimum is worth it. 2nd seed will also play the 4th seed (possibly at home?) in the first match of the round robin, so a chance to get back in the saddle after their final loss."
The second seed should the top 4 in the League. Sligo will beat London and NY to get there. And yet Mayo are the third seed because they lost to a fellow Div 1 side.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 21/04/2023 13:43:57    2472181

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "The second seed should the top 4 in the League. Sligo will beat London and NY to get there. And yet Mayo are the third seed because they lost to a fellow Div 1 side."
You're completely missing my point there. With seeded provincials, the likes of Sligo getting to a final without playing Ros/Mayo/Galway won't happen. If they get to a final they'll deserve it by now beating a top team, and will deserve the seeding based on that final outcome. Seeding provincials makes the 2nd seed for losing finalists work. Making the losing finalists lesser seeds than league placings from months before makes no sense.

Yes, and the other way is the case too. How about if Derry beat Monaghan in Championship, but rank below them in seeding if they lose a final? Simply, Championship form needs to have the highest ranking. The League is just the fall back for the last 7 places to fill out. It can't be the driver to reward failure in your Championship to date

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/04/2023 13:54:43    2472193

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I'd agree with your first 2 flaws, but the third one isn't a flaw. It needs to be like that to reward some Championship form. It makes it far worse if it's not finalists seeded, and you go back to League. Derry could beat Monaghan in Championship, lose the final, and then be ranked lower than Monaghan a few weeks later? Come on. That's not right.

Getting to a final is rewarded as it is Championship games, and if seeded with your first 2 flaws corrected, then teams will have gained 2nd seed on merit. With those corrected, teams will see that getting to a final and getting 2nd seed at a minimum is worth it. 2nd seed will also play the 4th seed (possibly at home?) in the first match of the round robin, so a chance to get back in the saddle after their final loss."
Sligo for example as Seed 2 increases the risk of dead rubbers in Round 3. It is doing more harm than good and damaging for the championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/04/2023 14:02:51    2472199

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo for example as Seed 2 increases the risk of dead rubbers in Round 3. It is doing more harm than good and damaging for the championship."
There cannot be any dead rubbers in Round 3. No situation allows it, as no matter what happens, all teams have something to play for in the final game. With 1st straight through, 2nd and 3rd going to a preliminary QF, no situation exists that a team that loses their first 2 games does not have an option of catching 3rd place. It cannot happen

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 21/04/2023 14:07:14    2472207

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Time taken for the Provincials and proximity to the start of the All Ireland proper isn't great.

Too many games still being played in February and March. All the percentage of games being played is down at least.

Fact that league and Provincial championship matter more than the previous season's All Ireland is a weird system too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/04/2023 14:22:48    2472213

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