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National Forum

Tailteann Cup 2022

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The tailteann cup will fail.
A competition for weaker is needed because they need more games in the summer to develop their teams.
This format just doesn't do it.
Entry to the following years sam maguire is not a reward
Entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).

The points on the league (while not directly relevant to the tailteann cup) are relevant to the ever increasing gap between top and bottom


In the old div 1A/B days there was a greater spread of league finalists, all ireland q finalists, provincial winners and provincial finalists.
Since the current league format was introduced, the quality of the top 6 is much higher but the overall competitiveness of both league and championship has declined

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 2045 - 05/05/2022 18:08:22    2415126

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Championship became less competitive since they moved to 4 divisions. The pundits will say it looks better and there are less beatings but that wasn't the point. The 1A/1B structure allowed 8 more counties to have experience of playing the best teams in the country and that made for a better championship. I'd be willing to put money on people still arguing about why only a small number of teams can win Sam a decade from now.

Another thing is that people worry too much about hammerings. Derry beat Tyrone by 11 and it should have been more. Laois and Westmeath get in the Leinster hurling but they'd rather be there instead of the Joe McDonagh which gets little attention and less gate receipts.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 746 - 05/05/2022 18:16:31    2415127

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "What do ye want?
Don't allow the best teams play in the League?
Make them play reserve teams?

P.s title of thread is Tailteann Cup."
Maybe we should just let everyone play in Division 1 with no relegation...

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 05/05/2022 19:18:10    2415141

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You don't get to dictate what we talk about. You have posted and cheerleaded dozens of posts on this thread and the other one, shutting down any talk of adjusting the system layout, lest it be a threat to your beloved Kerry and the other too teams. I've shown the data that it's a closed shop, and this is absolutely related to the Tailteann Cup. And ladder is getting pulled up, the best will play in their own closed shop, which suits you just fine, and we're supposed to take our pat on the head, and be told well done, here's your own tournament, you might get a chance once in a blue moon for us to thrash you and down you go again. All while they ignore it and will let it rot. One place for a winner? It's a joke, and will widen the divide by letting the best become uncatchable more than they already are. Just find it so rich. Like billionaires telling paupers how to be poor better. Leave it off"
But what is the alternative for lower teams? Keep slogging away all winter for a couple of hidings come championship then the whole cycle keeps repeating itself?
There's teams out there that have to be honest with themselves in regard to what level they are really at.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2684 - 05/05/2022 19:52:39    2415143

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "You don't get to dictate what we talk about. You have posted and cheerleaded dozens of posts on this thread and the other one, shutting down any talk of adjusting the system layout, lest it be a threat to your beloved Kerry and the other too teams. I've shown the data that it's a closed shop, and this is absolutely related to the Tailteann Cup. And ladder is getting pulled up, the best will play in their own closed shop, which suits you just fine, and we're supposed to take our pat on the head, and be told well done, here's your own tournament, you might get a chance once in a blue moon for us to thrash you and down you go again. All while they ignore it and will let it rot. One place for a winner? It's a joke, and will widen the divide by letting the best become uncatchable more than they already are. Just find it so rich. Like billionaires telling paupers how to be poor better. Leave it off"
I'll be in Austin Stacks Park on Saturday week, May 14th, for Kerry v Offaly in the Joe McDonagh Cup.
The league this year had a Top 11. Roscommon, Galway and Derry were the 3 teams battling for promotion. Realistically Dublin, Kildare and Derry will be the 3 battling for promotion next year. Meath, Clare and Cork are not being closed out from closing the gap. Cork for example won the league in '10, '11 and '12. So much for our Munster rivals being part of a closed shop!!!
The top 6 in Division 1 fought like dogs to remain in the division. Roscommon and Galway are not being closed out of Division 1. They happen to be coming up against 6 strong opponents. The league is an equal opportunities provider.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 05/05/2022 20:37:08    2415147

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This debate about a perfect football championship has gone on for years and still nobody has come up with the answer that pleases everyone. I personally would separate the provincial championships from the All Ireland series altogether and have an open draw for the All Ireland. That way the weaker counties will have maybe have two opportunities of been hammered. Throw in a qualifier or backdoor and that makes three opportunities. This argument about the stronger counties always been in the top divisions is true. That's why we call call them strong. The only thing that will change the powers that be ways of thinking is if the crowds for expeted one-sided games get so small they start to be a drain on finances.

Rossieforever (Roscommon) - Posts: 137 - 05/05/2022 21:48:40    2415155

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Championship became less competitive since they moved to 4 divisions. The pundits will say it looks better and there are less beatings but that wasn't the point. The 1A/1B structure allowed 8 more counties to have experience of playing the best teams in the country and that made for a better championship. I'd be willing to put money on people still arguing about why only a small number of teams can win Sam a decade from now.

Another thing is that people worry too much about hammerings. Derry beat Tyrone by 11 and it should have been more. Laois and Westmeath get in the Leinster hurling but they'd rather be there instead of the Joe McDonagh which gets little attention and less gate receipts."
Fully agree. We can either let the small few run away from the rest like we currently do, or we can help the majority raise their level by exposing them better teams consistently with a 1a and 1b system. The current system shows it works for the few only

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 06/05/2022 09:59:33    2415172

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Division 2 Galway beat Division 1 Mayo. Division 2 Derry beat Division 1 Tyrone. Division 2 provides competitive football ahead of the All-Ireland championship. 50% of Division 2 teams will be playing in different division next year. How is that a closed shop?
Division 3 Limerick knocked out Division 2 Clare.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 06/05/2022 10:05:06    2415174

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Division 2 Galway beat Division 1 Mayo. Division 2 Derry beat Division 1 Tyrone. Division 2 provides competitive football ahead of the All-Ireland championship. 50% of Division 2 teams will be playing in different division next year. How is that a closed shop?
Division 3 Limerick knocked out Division 2 Clare."
Galway are Division 1 now. Derry missed Division 2 with a points total that would get you promoted any other year. And Limerick are Division 2 now. Not sure any of this is proving your point. They're effectively same level. I've given you the data. You can't argue with it, it's right there in front of your eyes

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 06/05/2022 10:19:24    2415180

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Replying To Rossieforever:  "This debate about a perfect football championship has gone on for years and still nobody has come up with the answer that pleases everyone. I personally would separate the provincial championships from the All Ireland series altogether and have an open draw for the All Ireland. That way the weaker counties will have maybe have two opportunities of been hammered. Throw in a qualifier or backdoor and that makes three opportunities. This argument about the stronger counties always been in the top divisions is true. That's why we call call them strong. The only thing that will change the powers that be ways of thinking is if the crowds for expeted one-sided games get so small they start to be a drain on finances."
And counties that think they are strong get hammered when they get up against the big sides too, isn't that true?

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 06/05/2022 10:26:49    2415181

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The tailteann cup will fail.
A competition for weaker is needed because they need more games in the summer to develop their teams.
This format just doesn't do it.
Entry to the following years sam maguire is not a reward
Entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).

The points on the league (while not directly relevant to the tailteann cup) are relevant to the ever increasing gap between top and bottom


In the old div 1A/B days there was a greater spread of league finalists, all ireland q finalists, provincial winners and provincial finalists.
Since the current league format was introduced, the quality of the top 6 is much higher but the overall competitiveness of both league and championship has declined"
agree on entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).
Good point and a real carrot for entrants.

But I honestly think we should not write this competition off yet

gaelsboy (Leitrim) - Posts: 830 - 06/05/2022 10:28:42    2415182

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Replying To gaelsboy:  "agree on entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).
Good point and a real carrot for entrants.

But I honestly think we should not write this competition off yet"
I agree it shouldn't be written off either. But needs huge adjustment already. There needs to be better links with Leagues, more chances to move up or down, and better reward for winning than just not being in the cup next year.

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 06/05/2022 10:53:07    2415190

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The tailteann cup will fail.
A competition for weaker is needed because they need more games in the summer to develop their teams.
This format just doesn't do it.
Entry to the following years sam maguire is not a reward
Entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).

The points on the league (while not directly relevant to the tailteann cup) are relevant to the ever increasing gap between top and bottom


In the old div 1A/B days there was a greater spread of league finalists, all ireland q finalists, provincial winners and provincial finalists.
Since the current league format was introduced, the quality of the top 6 is much higher but the overall competitiveness of both league and championship has declined"
I hate formats that give lower level a late entry to the All Ireland.

Devalues all the competitions.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 06/05/2022 10:55:51    2415191

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Replying To gaelsboy:  "agree on entry to the all ireland q finals for the two tailteann cup finalist is the answer (just like hurling).
Good point and a real carrot for entrants.

But I honestly think we should not write this competition off yet"
Sometimes it seems people just don't think things through.

Tailteann Cup, by the very structure of the competition, can't start until after the provincial semi-finals are played. It will take six rounds of matches to play the competition (three group games, quarter-finals, semi-finals, and final).

Even if it starts on the weekend of the provincial finals, it means the actual provincial finalists themselves are then going to be sitting around for five weeks before the Sam Maguire championship can resume, because it can't resume until you find out which two of the Tailteann Cup teams are going to be allowed back into it.

The system works in hurling because the Joe McDonagh Cup counties don't actually play in the provincial championships, and instead play their own competition alongside the provincial ones. But any suggestion to do the same in football would likely be shot down too.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4002 - 06/05/2022 11:38:04    2415210

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Whatever the format, the hammerings handed out last weekend show that a 2nd tier competition is necessary.

Does everybody have a right to play Dublin etc ? Only if you have earned it and improved.

Wicklow do not play Limerick in the hurling, and they certainly should not be playing Kerry etc in the football.

sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 3045 - 06/05/2022 11:47:49    2415213

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The Joe McDonagh qualification for the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals is a unique situation. For the McDonagh counties to accept the provincial structure, the compromise was the preliminary quarter-final route.
The Tailteann Cup winner qualifies for the Sam Maguire 16. That is a big reward. If Cavan get back to Division 2, they have every opportunity to establish themselves in Division 2 just like Clare have. Cavan also have every opportunity to push on and challenge for promotion like Roscommon and Derry. The league is very much an equal opportunities provider.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 06/05/2022 11:50:38    2415216

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I agree it shouldn't be written off either. But needs huge adjustment already. There needs to be better links with Leagues, more chances to move up or down, and better reward for winning than just not being in the cup next year."
I do think division 2 should be widened to 12 teams and have division 1 and 3 10 teams each.
Have provincials in parallel with league and only provincial champions qualifying.
You'd probably need to cut the championships to straight knockout but the leagues are where the action is at and would be played right up to the end of May.

That division 2 is where the scrap for qualifying should happen and it needs to be widened out.

Yes there'd be 10 teams languishing a little but it'd add spice to the new division 3 to get up to division 2. You could also have 3rd place playing 10th in division 2 for promotion to keep the flow of teams wider.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 06/05/2022 12:07:03    2415220

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Joe McDonagh qualification for the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals is a unique situation. For the McDonagh counties to accept the provincial structure, the compromise was the preliminary quarter-final route.
The Tailteann Cup winner qualifies for the Sam Maguire 16. That is a big reward. If Cavan get back to Division 2, they have every opportunity to establish themselves in Division 2 just like Clare have. Cavan also have every opportunity to push on and challenge for promotion like Roscommon and Derry. The league is very much an equal opportunities provider."
But but but...all the best teams are in the top Division....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 06/05/2022 12:31:28    2415230

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Replying To sponger:  "Whatever the format, the hammerings handed out last weekend show that a 2nd tier competition is necessary.

Does everybody have a right to play Dublin etc ? Only if you have earned it and improved.

Wicklow do not play Limerick in the hurling, and they certainly should not be playing Kerry etc in the football."
So all the Wicklow football supporters I talk to, would love to see Wicklow compete against Kerry some day. A question; will Wicklow playing and potentially winning the Tailteann cup enable them to compete with Kerry or any other of the top 8 counties in the next few years? Surely the whole premise of structure competitions is that a county can move up through the grades and eventually be able to compete against a traditionally strong county. If the Tailteann cup enables this to happen then I will be all for it but in my opinion, it will not achieve this and so it is just a way to cast the weaker counties aside and allow the big boys to play and win amongst themselves.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2273 - 06/05/2022 12:53:11    2415238

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I do think division 2 should be widened to 12 teams and have division 1 and 3 10 teams each.
Have provincials in parallel with league and only provincial champions qualifying.
You'd probably need to cut the championships to straight knockout but the leagues are where the action is at and would be played right up to the end of May.

That division 2 is where the scrap for qualifying should happen and it needs to be widened out.

Yes there'd be 10 teams languishing a little but it'd add spice to the new division 3 to get up to division 2. You could also have 3rd place playing 10th in division 2 for promotion to keep the flow of teams wider."
So you want 11 weeks for the League, instead of only seven. How are you going to shoehorn these extra fixtures into the calendar? Please don't disregard the club game when answering.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4002 - 06/05/2022 12:58:34    2415240

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