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National Forum

Tailteann Cup 2022

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post

Replying To Pikeman96:  "So you want 11 weeks for the League, instead of only seven. How are you going to shoehorn these extra fixtures into the calendar? Please don't disregard the club game when answering."
It fits

You'd need 19 game weeks for this.

11 league,
4 provincials
4 All Ireland straight knockout.

The current system is talking 19 game weeks

8 league
4 Provincials
7 All Ireland

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 06/05/2022 13:22:33    2415248

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Football has 4 even divisions of 8. Hurling doesn't have that luxury. The football league ranks counties fairly from 1 to 32. It is an equal opportunities provider. So much so that league qualification has taken over from the traditional qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 06/05/2022 14:27:20    2415278

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Football has 4 even divisions of 8. Hurling doesn't have that luxury. The football league ranks counties fairly from 1 to 32. It is an equal opportunities provider. So much so that league qualification has taken over from the traditional qualifiers."
Ok but can it be improved.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 06/05/2022 16:31:46    2415317

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Replying To Bon:  "But what is the alternative for lower teams? Keep slogging away all winter for a couple of hidings come championship then the whole cycle keeps repeating itself?
There's teams out there that have to be honest with themselves in regard to what level they are really at."
We need a system that helps them, not just cut them off. Go back to 2 divisions of 16, split into A and B and at least this way, the lower teams are exposed to a mix of Division 3 and 4, not just 4 cut off way on their own. There's solution's there. Just needs tweaks to prevent the gap widening between those at the top and the bottom even further. My solution isn't perfect by any means, it's an idea, but it's vastly better than this current one

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 06/05/2022 17:47:31    2415333

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'll be in Austin Stacks Park on Saturday week, May 14th, for Kerry v Offaly in the Joe McDonagh Cup.
The league this year had a Top 11. Roscommon, Galway and Derry were the 3 teams battling for promotion. Realistically Dublin, Kildare and Derry will be the 3 battling for promotion next year. Meath, Clare and Cork are not being closed out from closing the gap. Cork for example won the league in '10, '11 and '12. So much for our Munster rivals being part of a closed shop!!!
The top 6 in Division 1 fought like dogs to remain in the division. Roscommon and Galway are not being closed out of Division 1. They happen to be coming up against 6 strong opponents. The league is an equal opportunities provider."
Fair play to you. But when you're trying to compare the system for hurling against football, then you're losing. We all know for a very long time that Hurling is a handful of elite counties. Why you'd want to turn football into this, I don't know. We have multiple examples going back of previously unheralded football teams breaking through, with a system that mixed teams more evening in League. This current one won't allow that, as I've shown you with data.

What's your deal though? Why do you constantly come to tell us repeatedly that this will be good for us? What's your agenda? As I said yesterday, you have posted dozens of times, trying to tell everyone this is a good idea. You can't know that, especially when all available info points thr opposite direction. You'd swear you were personally involved, like you had shares bought in it or something. Like you're obsessed with trying to tell us many times, despite you having no involvement in it

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 06/05/2022 17:53:17    2415337

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Replying To sponger:  "Whatever the format, the hammerings handed out last weekend show that a 2nd tier competition is necessary.

Does everybody have a right to play Dublin etc ? Only if you have earned it and improved.

Wicklow do not play Limerick in the hurling, and they certainly should not be playing Kerry etc in the football."
It's something I've never understand why counties think they've a right to play the top teams in football but have no problem with not playing them in hurling.

The qualifiers haven't been a huge success for weaker counties but that's never something that's spoken about. Leitrim went 10 years before they won a qualifier game and without looking at it I wouldn't think Waterford have a much better record. So what does the open draw, the answer to everything according to some, do to help them?

People will use Carlows run a few years ago to justify their idea about not having a second tier. The two games they won were against two other Div 4 teams and they were beaten by Monaghan.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 07/05/2022 07:56:51    2415359

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The attraction of the provincial championships is that teams of all levels can meet. All teams enter the provincial championships with the possibility of winning the All-Ireland. Leitrim v Roscommon. Cavan v Donegal. Westmeath v Kildare. The lower league seeds have the possibility of an upset. It's an interesting match up.
The players respect the ranking of the league. It's a great competition. 4 competitive divisions. Everyone is getting on with the game. Respect to that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 07/05/2022 11:15:59    2415381

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Fair play to you. But when you're trying to compare the system for hurling against football, then you're losing. We all know for a very long time that Hurling is a handful of elite counties. Why you'd want to turn football into this, I don't know. We have multiple examples going back of previously unheralded football teams breaking through, with a system that mixed teams more evening in League. This current one won't allow that, as I've shown you with data.

What's your deal though? Why do you constantly come to tell us repeatedly that this will be good for us? What's your agenda? As I said yesterday, you have posted dozens of times, trying to tell everyone this is a good idea. You can't know that, especially when all available info points thr opposite direction. You'd swear you were personally involved, like you had shares bought in it or something. Like you're obsessed with trying to tell us many times, despite you having no involvement in it"
The same way you and others are obsessed with the opposite side of it?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 07/05/2022 11:31:10    2415385

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The attraction of the provincial championships is that teams of all levels can meet. All teams enter the provincial championships with the possibility of winning the All-Ireland. Leitrim v Roscommon. Cavan v Donegal. Westmeath v Kildare. The lower league seeds have the possibility of an upset. It's an interesting match up.
The players respect the ranking of the league. It's a great competition. 4 competitive divisions. Everyone is getting on with the game. Respect to that."
Respectfully, try having that attraction if you are from a county like Longford. Played 160 games in Leinster Championship since 1903, won only 50 of them. Since 1970 we reached the Leinster semi final only twice!!! Only been in the Leinster final twice in the history of the competition, and won it once in 1968. This century alone we played 36 Leinster Championship games and won only 10!!! I remember losing to Meath in the Leinster QF in 1990 and we never won another game in Leinster until Wexford in 1998 (after a replay and were then thrashed by Westmeath in the next round). Players have been subject to some horrific thrashings in return for the possibility of the impossible, and the game has gone backwards in the county as a result. The provincial championship for some of us has been an abject disaster, year after year after year after year. A lucky bag has the advantage of surprise, but when you reach into it year after year only to pull back out an empty hand (often bruised by an historic whipping) you get a bit fed up of all that talk of tradition or surprise element nonsense.

LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 699 - 07/05/2022 13:09:50    2415398

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Replying To oneoff:  "The same way you and others are obsessed with the opposite side of it?"
The opposite? I'm simply stating that this system is messed up, as we can clearly see. All I'm saying is that it needs adjustment which it does, rather than cheerleading a clearly bad system. So not the opposite at all, just tweak it. Do we want to effectively kill football? As this current system will do that

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 07/05/2022 14:45:54    2415407

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Replying To LongfordgaaAbú:  "Respectfully, try having that attraction if you are from a county like Longford. Played 160 games in Leinster Championship since 1903, won only 50 of them. Since 1970 we reached the Leinster semi final only twice!!! Only been in the Leinster final twice in the history of the competition, and won it once in 1968. This century alone we played 36 Leinster Championship games and won only 10!!! I remember losing to Meath in the Leinster QF in 1990 and we never won another game in Leinster until Wexford in 1998 (after a replay and were then thrashed by Westmeath in the next round). Players have been subject to some horrific thrashings in return for the possibility of the impossible, and the game has gone backwards in the county as a result. The provincial championship for some of us has been an abject disaster, year after year after year after year. A lucky bag has the advantage of surprise, but when you reach into it year after year only to pull back out an empty hand (often bruised by an historic whipping) you get a bit fed up of all that talk of tradition or surprise element nonsense."
The GAA was open to the idea of counties moving to another province. The idea gained very little traction. Longford for tradition do not want to go west to Connaught?
If Longford make the semi-finals and final of the Tailteann Cup, it'll be interesting to see the respect that comes with that. Gaining qualification to the Sam Maguire 16 will be respected currency. The Tailteann Cup offers that lucrative reward.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 07/05/2022 15:00:06    2415413

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I'm looking forward to the Tailteann cup to be honest. I was at both of Wicklow's championship matches this year and while we actually played reasonably well against Meath, there was never any possibility of us actually beating them. I'm genuinely looking forward to being able to go to championship games at this time of the year with the hope that we could progress to a semi final or final.

I really wish that the GAA made an agreement with TG4 that they could show any Tailteann cup game they want. The ethos of the GAA does still pertain to promoting Irish culture and I think that allowing TG4 show the games in the Tailteann Cup free of charge would be a great way to get the competition up and running in it's first few years at least.

Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 610 - 07/05/2022 15:08:19    2415415

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA was open to the idea of counties moving to another province. The idea gained very little traction. Longford for tradition do not want to go west to Connaught?
If Longford make the semi-finals and final of the Tailteann Cup, it'll be interesting to see the respect that comes with that. Gaining qualification to the Sam Maguire 16 will be respected currency. The Tailteann Cup offers that lucrative reward."
Don't underestimate the importance to players and progression of the sport in counties with smaller populations of winning a competition as its own reward. Teams can aspire to actually win silverware in Tailteann Cup rather than being constant fodder within a competition they can't statistically or realistically ever win (we have almost a century of data so might be time to start reflecting on it rather than wishing things might change next time out). Telling a Leinster county that the answer to their current provincial miasma is for them to jump into a different province, just underpins the dysfunction. Nobody under 60 in Longford remembers us getting to a Leinster Final or winning one. Bring on the Tailteann Cup and good riddance to the Leinster Championship when it is eventually put out to pasture.

LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 699 - 07/05/2022 15:20:29    2415418

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Replying To oneoff:  "It's something I've never understand why counties think they've a right to play the top teams in football but have no problem with not playing them in hurling.

The qualifiers haven't been a huge success for weaker counties but that's never something that's spoken about. Leitrim went 10 years before they won a qualifier game and without looking at it I wouldn't think Waterford have a much better record. So what does the open draw, the answer to everything according to some, do to help them?

People will use Carlows run a few years ago to justify their idea about not having a second tier. The two games they won were against two other Div 4 teams and they were beaten by Monaghan."
The open draw is about fairness. Do league two teams complain if they get a huge defeat in the FA Cup to a premier league team? Of course not. Because they've been beaten fair and square by a better team in a luck of the draw scenario. A div four team might get lucky and get through two rounds against similar opposition into a quarter final in an open draw competition, or further even. Wouldn't that be of huge benefit and boost to them?

They'll have to change the name of the All Ireland to the parts of Ireland considered elite cup.

Hurling is a different matter entirely, the GAA has failed in its promotion of the national sport down through decades and decades, and there doesn't seem to be a will to improve its outlook for a few generations.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 07/05/2022 15:51:52    2415427

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Replying To sponger:  "Whatever the format, the hammerings handed out last weekend show that a 2nd tier competition is necessary.

Does everybody have a right to play Dublin etc ? Only if you have earned it and improved.

Wicklow do not play Limerick in the hurling, and they certainly should not be playing Kerry etc in the football."
Of course everyone should have the right to play Dublin, it is called the All Ireland for a reason. Otherwise it is time to scrap the name of the competition. And Dublin are only a division two side remember so what is the big deal about them?

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 07/05/2022 15:56:04    2415429

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Replying To LongfordgaaAbú:  "Don't underestimate the importance to players and progression of the sport in counties with smaller populations of winning a competition as its own reward. Teams can aspire to actually win silverware in Tailteann Cup rather than being constant fodder within a competition they can't statistically or realistically ever win (we have almost a century of data so might be time to start reflecting on it rather than wishing things might change next time out). Telling a Leinster county that the answer to their current provincial miasma is for them to jump into a different province, just underpins the dysfunction. Nobody under 60 in Longford remembers us getting to a Leinster Final or winning one. Bring on the Tailteann Cup and good riddance to the Leinster Championship when it is eventually put out to pasture."
Tailteann Cup winners should be targeting provincial success next. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 07/05/2022 16:52:43    2415436

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Replying To kentuckytucky:  "Of course everyone should have the right to play Dublin, it is called the All Ireland for a reason. Otherwise it is time to scrap the name of the competition. And Dublin are only a division two side remember so what is the big deal about them?"
And tell me what benefit Dublin and Wexford got from that game last week.

Im all ears.

sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 3045 - 07/05/2022 17:56:08    2415446

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Replying To sponger:  "And tell me what benefit Dublin and Wexford got from that game last week.

Im all ears."
Who cares what benefit Dublin got. Wexford are a division four team, and it showed. But they competed as equals on paper at least, we'll not get into the funding here.

Leitrim_12 (USA) - Posts: 207 - 07/05/2022 18:04:07    2415447

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In many counties, you have divisional club championships. Clubs scrap for the e.g. junior (division 3) or intermediate (division 2) championship, and are delighted to win it. They know its guaranteed promotion to the next division up, in the league, also.

I've never heard anyone in Tyrone calling for an open-draw championship, one that might e.g. pitch a Div 3 club against a Div 1 heavyweight. Because it'd be carnage, and no use to anybody.

So why is all the angst for with the Tailteann? Do Div 4 teams really love "participating" in the race for Sam, in a competition they know they're sure to get hosed in? Would they not rather win something?

I had to laugh at one of the Down players saying recently he had no interest in the Tailteann; he felt it was beneath him.

Well, why not prove it lads, by going out and winning the Tailteann by a bagful? Because the shift in mentality required to win ANY competition is always useful.

So my q remains - for teams that currently have no realistic chance of competing for Sam, if the Tailteann is so terrible, what is your alternative? No alternative at all, and getting bate out the gate every year?

Seems like a massive inconsistency between the generally favourable attitude to tiered competitions inside counties and the roars of disapproval at any suggestion that something similar might be tried at inter-county level.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 07/05/2022 18:09:29    2415448

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Replying To essmac:  "In many counties, you have divisional club championships. Clubs scrap for the e.g. junior (division 3) or intermediate (division 2) championship, and are delighted to win it. They know its guaranteed promotion to the next division up, in the league, also.

I've never heard anyone in Tyrone calling for an open-draw championship, one that might e.g. pitch a Div 3 club against a Div 1 heavyweight. Because it'd be carnage, and no use to anybody.

So why is all the angst for with the Tailteann? Do Div 4 teams really love "participating" in the race for Sam, in a competition they know they're sure to get hosed in? Would they not rather win something?

I had to laugh at one of the Down players saying recently he had no interest in the Tailteann; he felt it was beneath him.

Well, why not prove it lads, by going out and winning the Tailteann by a bagful? Because the shift in mentality required to win ANY competition is always useful.

So my q remains - for teams that currently have no realistic chance of competing for Sam, if the Tailteann is so terrible, what is your alternative? No alternative at all, and getting bate out the gate every year?

Seems like a massive inconsistency between the generally favourable attitude to tiered competitions inside counties and the roars of disapproval at any suggestion that something similar might be tried at inter-county level."
Let it run for a few years, see how it goes. But try improving the standards of so-called weaker counties outside of championship by giving them some competitive games against counties from a higher standard. Be it scrapping provincial leagues and having a National League Cup. So-called weaker counties progressed to All Ireland semi finals in the backdoor championships but couldn't sustain the level. I know it's very naive to expect the GAA to try improving standards of weaker counties, they have to show an appetite within the counties first.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8760 - 07/05/2022 18:58:57    2415454

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