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Tailteann cup winners should play off on an rotational basis against one of the provisional winners as a reward!!! This would ensure interest is maintained longer!
fifty (Mayo) - Posts: 109 - 09/05/2022 15:53:45
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The Tailteann Cup semi-finals both being on a Sunday in Croke Park and being the live matches on RTÉ, is a respectful platform.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 10075 - 09/05/2022 17:12:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "Round 1 and the Quarter Finals shall be organised on a geographical basis with
Northern and Southern Sections." I can see the point for Round 1 but the Qtr Finals should be open draw.
Which Section will NY be in?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2558 - 09/05/2022 17:19:17
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Replying To oneoff: "You know what I think you and others want but just won't come out and say it? You want a championship format where the stronger teams draw each other more often and knock each other out and hope for a soft draw to progress without having to actually put in the effort to get there.
A few years ago Munster counties got the hump about the draw being seeded. It probably shouldn't have been seeded but that's not the point. They essentially wanted Kerry and Cork to be drawn with each other in the semi finals every year therefore giving them an easier route to the Munster final.
It's similar with the league. You want counties to be moved up grades without them having to actually put in the effort to get there. You've been given the example of Clare in this regard but you just choose to ignore that as it doesn't suit your agenda." Your last paragraph. You want others to put the effort in. You think they aren't? It's not just a case of git gud. How do you help these when the system is against them? Do we just keep a lopsided inequitable system, and just expect teams to build their own ladder while trying to climb it at the same time? The system exists for the top teams, and to keep the others down and out of sight, and it's a death spiral trying to get out of it. The 4 tier league is unnatural in GAA. We've only had it in this format since 2008, and 4 divisions stacked on top of each other clearly widens gaps. Other systems worked better. Are we not in the business of helping counties, rather than telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Our League is secondary, and needs to be set to help, not hinder teams. You all have it backwards, it needs to feed the best it can into Championship, not the worst. Some are obsessed with the prestige and exposure being in Division 1 gives, and are wanting to hold to this by any means. That's insanity when others can't get proper help.
Clare have done decently for sure. But I've given many examples of the closed off issues with Division 1, more so than one team example. Like why the resistance to the idea? Many posters from lesser teams agree...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 09/05/2022 17:44:20
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Established method how? The Leagues have always been fluid, and have changed as needed with the times. The current iteration has been for 2008, and nothing needs to be forever. Indeed some of the most open Championships in recent memory have been the championships pre-2008 when we had 10 different winners in 18 seasons, we've had 5 in 15 since. Look, by any measure there is no doubt that the system is closing off at the top (as I referenced a few pages back). At the end of the day, the league (while good and competitive) is our secondary competition. But some act as if it's sacrosanct. If needs must, to increase competition, then we absolutely should use it to adjust, expose more teams to different levels, and make it feed into our Championships to make them more competitive. Like, why the resistance to changing the Leagues, but happy for the Championship to change? We can do both.
My suggestion would help the like of your county if you got promoted up. You'd have a chance to pit yourself against the best teams and seeing where to improve, while also playing ones at your level so you've a chance to stay up. We need to use the League correctly, not just as the top shop for those at the very top, where they get all the exposure and media. It's really a head scratcher to me why some are happy to adjust Championship, but resist all talk of changing the League. try it, help bring things on. What's the worst that can happen? Surely it'll be better than the system we can see, with the gap clearly widening." Go back 40 years, and the 1A/1B/2A/2B league structure existed for maybe 10 of the 40 years. So it is not just a 2008 and later structure. There were some exceptions when open draws were done to move from one format to another or instead of Division 4 there was a North and South Division 3, but for 30 of the last 40 years we have had a 4 Divisions structure or something almost identical. For me, the leagues work. It is a meritocracy. Anyone can do well in a season, get promoted and move upward (just as my county did to move between every one of the 4 divisions over the past 20 years, including division 1). The adjustments to Championship (which I support) helps make the cup competition more of a meritocracy too by ensuring competitive games exist within two tiers rather than all on same tier and praying for a once-in-a-lifetime surprise outcomes between say my county and Dublin and going home with a 30 point beating which drags the show backwards. Crucially it also gives silverware for Tier 2 counties rather than a qualifier competition towards inevitable oblivion. The combination of the current league structure and the 2023 Tailteann Cup structure (but with North/South nonsense removed from the structure) gives me exactly what I want as a Longford supporter. Others will disagree i'm sure, but that's my two cents.
LongfordgaaAbú (Longford) - Posts: 699 - 09/05/2022 19:05:51
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But they already get an award; the Tailteann Cup . On top of that they'll get promotion to Sam Maguire the following year where they'll be drawn in a group with a reigning provincial champion.
In any case the Tailteann Cup winner won't be known until after the All Ireland Senior semi finals so they can't be slotted back into the AI Senior Championship.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1759 - 09/05/2022 21:23:53
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This question I have is neither here nor there but when is Kilkenny going to start fielding a team to be able to take part in this? Does their county board have any plans on putting out a football team beyond playing club teams from England? Even their wikipedia page hasn't had an updated mention about them since 2015. Any word? More curious than anything else.
Tydavnet (Monaghan) - Posts: 16 - 09/05/2022 21:33:15
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Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this.
Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner.
Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 08:33:08
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this. Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner. Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too."
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8760 - 10/05/2022 09:45:13
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Replying To GreenandRed: " Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this. Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner. Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too." It's a very low base of opinions here. What counts is the opinions of intercounty players and coaches."
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 10:03:02
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Your last paragraph. You want others to put the effort in. You think they aren't? It's not just a case of git gud. How do you help these when the system is against them? Do we just keep a lopsided inequitable system, and just expect teams to build their own ladder while trying to climb it at the same time? The system exists for the top teams, and to keep the others down and out of sight, and it's a death spiral trying to get out of it. The 4 tier league is unnatural in GAA. We've only had it in this format since 2008, and 4 divisions stacked on top of each other clearly widens gaps. Other systems worked better. Are we not in the business of helping counties, rather than telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Our League is secondary, and needs to be set to help, not hinder teams. You all have it backwards, it needs to feed the best it can into Championship, not the worst. Some are obsessed with the prestige and exposure being in Division 1 gives, and are wanting to hold to this by any means. That's insanity when others can't get proper help.
Clare have done decently for sure. But I've given many examples of the closed off issues with Division 1, more so than one team example. Like why the resistance to the idea? Many posters from lesser teams agree..." Again with this Div 1 bring a closed shop thing. It's not. Any team can be promoted to Div 1 if they get the results and this has been shown to you plenty of times.
Also this thing of helping counties. As I've said even though you won't admit it what you want if for counties to be put into a higher division just because. You're trying to claim to "weaker" counties were somehow better off with the league pre 2008. I might be wrong but were the likes of Carlow, Waterford, Leitrim etc winning all around them before that?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1651 - 10/05/2022 10:06:27
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: " Replying To GreenandRed: "[quote=Loughduff Lad: "Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this. Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner. Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too." It's a very low base of opinions here. What counts is the opinions of intercounty players and coaches."
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8760 - 10/05/2022 10:22:00
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Replying To oneoff: "Again with this Div 1 bring a closed shop thing. It's not. Any team can be promoted to Div 1 if they get the results and this has been shown to you plenty of times.
Also this thing of helping counties. As I've said even though you won't admit it what you want if for counties to be put into a higher division just because. You're trying to claim to "weaker" counties were somehow better off with the league pre 2008. I might be wrong but were the likes of Carlow, Waterford, Leitrim etc winning all around them before that?" It is. I've highlighted the data above if you want to go back and read it. The Top 6 essentially have a cabal going where the ladder is pulled up behind them. Over the last 8 seasons, only 3 times has a promoted side stayed up. The Top 6 are a constant there and practically no one can break in for a sustained time. Other posters have recognised this when i pointed it out. It is by its very definition, a closed shop. Don't be so blind
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 10:38:27
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Replying To LongfordgaaAbú: "Go back 40 years, and the 1A/1B/2A/2B league structure existed for maybe 10 of the 40 years. So it is not just a 2008 and later structure. There were some exceptions when open draws were done to move from one format to another or instead of Division 4 there was a North and South Division 3, but for 30 of the last 40 years we have had a 4 Divisions structure or something almost identical. For me, the leagues work. It is a meritocracy. Anyone can do well in a season, get promoted and move upward (just as my county did to move between every one of the 4 divisions over the past 20 years, including division 1). The adjustments to Championship (which I support) helps make the cup competition more of a meritocracy too by ensuring competitive games exist within two tiers rather than all on same tier and praying for a once-in-a-lifetime surprise outcomes between say my county and Dublin and going home with a 30 point beating which drags the show backwards. Crucially it also gives silverware for Tier 2 counties rather than a qualifier competition towards inevitable oblivion. The combination of the current league structure and the 2023 Tailteann Cup structure (but with North/South nonsense removed from the structure) gives me exactly what I want as a Longford supporter. Others will disagree i'm sure, but that's my two cents." That's the point I'm trying to make. The Leagues have never been set for so long. We have had many different iterations over the years, and they have switched and adjusted as required. Sure at one point in the 90s they played half the league in the Autumn after the All Ireland final, and the other half in the Spring. That's when the League was used as a building competition. people here have got too obsessed with the League and forget what it is for. It is to get teams ready for Championship. We're losing sight of that. A league should help Championship, no widen the divide. We can easily change the structure as we've done before, especially now we have tiered the Championship. like it seems nonsensical to have 2 different types of tiers structure for each, and such stringent qualifying criteria between them. What is the opposition to it, what's to lose? Going to 2 16 team divisions is hardly going to make things worse. It can't make it any worse that this structure seems to be doing. Of all our competitions, the League should be the one we can adjust as required for the demands of the game. I'm actually scratching my head at the opposition to adjusting our secondary competition, to try and help other teams get better. It's literally what it is there for
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 10:45:19
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Replying To oneoff: "Again with this Div 1 bring a closed shop thing. It's not. Any team can be promoted to Div 1 if they get the results and this has been shown to you plenty of times.
Also this thing of helping counties. As I've said even though you won't admit it what you want if for counties to be put into a higher division just because. You're trying to claim to "weaker" counties were somehow better off with the league pre 2008. I might be wrong but were the likes of Carlow, Waterford, Leitrim etc winning all around them before that?" Was to add, about your 2nd paragraph. No they weren't winning all around them, but that's other failings as well, both with the GAA and internal in those counties. But that doesn't mean we look at a clearly bad structure, and say, well they're rubbish anyway, so lets do nothing. What would be the point in that? We need to do all we can to help counties, and yes, my suggestions aren't a fix all. But if they use that with other things that the GAA should be doing, then maybe we might have a chance to change things. But cutting them off to Div 4, and a secondary championship alone will never help these teams, and mad to think so.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 10:53:01
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this. Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner. Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too."
Blame Horan for wanting a legacy from his presidency.
Next year's edition is the future Tailteann cup proper.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 10/05/2022 11:03:16
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Replying To CastleBravo: "But they already get an award; the Tailteann Cup . On top of that they'll get promotion to Sam Maguire the following year where they'll be drawn in a group with a reigning provincial champion.
In any case the Tailteann Cup winner won't be known until after the All Ireland Senior semi finals so they can't be slotted back into the AI Senior Championship." Exactly and one of the main reasons for having a Tailteann Cup at all is so that the lower division teams play later into the season.
The competitions need to be separate.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 10/05/2022 11:05:09
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Replying To LongfordgaaAbú: "Go back 40 years, and the 1A/1B/2A/2B league structure existed for maybe 10 of the 40 years. So it is not just a 2008 and later structure. There were some exceptions when open draws were done to move from one format to another or instead of Division 4 there was a North and South Division 3, but for 30 of the last 40 years we have had a 4 Divisions structure or something almost identical. For me, the leagues work. It is a meritocracy. Anyone can do well in a season, get promoted and move upward (just as my county did to move between every one of the 4 divisions over the past 20 years, including division 1). The adjustments to Championship (which I support) helps make the cup competition more of a meritocracy too by ensuring competitive games exist within two tiers rather than all on same tier and praying for a once-in-a-lifetime surprise outcomes between say my county and Dublin and going home with a 30 point beating which drags the show backwards. Crucially it also gives silverware for Tier 2 counties rather than a qualifier competition towards inevitable oblivion. The combination of the current league structure and the 2023 Tailteann Cup structure (but with North/South nonsense removed from the structure) gives me exactly what I want as a Longford supporter. Others will disagree i'm sure, but that's my two cents." As an Antrim supporter I agree.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4731 - 10/05/2022 11:07:17
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Replying To GreenandRed: " Replying To Loughduff Lad: "[quote=GreenandRed: "[quote=Loughduff Lad: "Well boys, unfortunately I think our dear Tailteann Cup is dead on arrival. Now that more details are out, there's not a lot of happy people out there, including a lot involved with sides in it this year. See link. New York get a bye through 2 rounds, straight to the quarters. The preliminary round and Round 1 will be divided on a geographical basis (which worked really well in leagues last year. Not). Bit mad when you consider 4 of the top 5 in the bookies would be in the North. Way to lopside the draw lads, the North teams will likely knock each other out, and leave an odd situation where some better teams will be out before the quarters. We want to play different teams too, not the same we meet in Ulster every year, and I'd imagine some in the South are the same too. Jeez but they've made a right mess out of this. Like I've consistently said, I want this to work, but with some tweaks. But they've killed this on arrival. You're all acting like this is the saviour of football, but they couldn't even organise a 16 team knockout tournament properly? And you think the GAA have the best interests of the weaker counties at heart? Give over. This is a pat on the head and a shoving out of the way into a dark corner. Someone said it well elsewhere: "A common theme is that the less likely your county is to be involved in the Tailteann, the more you are in favour of it. And vice versa". This is literally what's happening here too." It's a very low base of opinions here. What counts is the opinions of intercounty players and coaches."
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2488 - 10/05/2022 11:12:07
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its a dead duck already after last nights press release, teams were hard sold on it as it was but now this just puts the tin hat on it. it will fail because the hierarchy don't care about the smaller counties, they're just an itch that won't go away. if you want this to work the games would have to be run on neutral ground in conjunction with qualifier games to garner some interest from the overall public then finish by having the final on same day as the All Ireland.
it should be scrapped imo and market the league properly. THATS a competition where teams play against other teams of their own level
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 10/05/2022 11:19:20
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