National Forum

2021 Hurling Championship

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Replying To Canuck:  "I supposed you would have to ask when Joe,Tony,T. J. and Austin cuts the ball over the bar from 70 meters is that not ground hurling?"
TJ side line cuts? Don't think so.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 03/08/2021 09:42:23    2367142

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Replying To baire:  "What you're doing there Oldtourman is kitchen-sinking and diverting - throw everything into the argument and avoid the main issue i.e that the soccer mentality of possession, percentages, huge professional back room teams and analysts has taken over the game and that the emphasis on wrist work, fast movement of ball, first time hurling, off the cuff play etc is a thing of the past. I don't think the GAA is going to change it, as long as the money keeps rolling into headquarters they will turn a blind eye. I'm not referring to any particular county here btw, it's widespread in both hurling and gaelic football."
It's the modern way in most or all team sports. Makes sense if you want to win. And pretty pointless any team running out on the pitch at all if they dont want to win. Agreed it's not always the best spectacle but the reason behind team sports from the get go was to beat the other teams and try to be the best. Entertaining spectators would be a distant second. And even more so for amateur players as they dont get a cent of any extra income generated by having more spectators.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 09:53:36    2367145

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Replying To baire:  "TJ side line cuts? Don't think so."
Not what TJs famous for but the point is still valid. Numerous goals scored by pulls at all levels without the ball being taken in hand too.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 09:55:49    2367146

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Replying To baire:  "What you're doing there Oldtourman is kitchen-sinking and diverting - throw everything into the argument and avoid the main issue i.e that the soccer mentality of possession, percentages, huge professional back room teams and analysts has taken over the game and that the emphasis on wrist work, fast movement of ball, first time hurling, off the cuff play etc is a thing of the past. I don't think the GAA is going to change it, as long as the money keeps rolling into headquarters they will turn a blind eye. I'm not referring to any particular county here btw, it's widespread in both hurling and gaelic football."
Look baire games change. If you want to talk about past glory days, look at championship games on utube from the oughties/nineties and the first touch of players to day is light years faster . The players are more athletic and the accuracy of most players is way better than it was twenty years ago. The game has changed and evolved, but I can tell this much that if you took hand passing totally out of the game in the morning completely- and that is the only way you can do it- Players like Hannon, Finn, Lynch Casey, Gulland & Co would probably be one of the best players in Ireland, and you would only have succeeded in slowing down the game further. The fact is that since 1897 when a Limerick team (who else!) brought a new tactic called hook and block to an All Ireland Final to successfully frustrate a possibly more skillful KKK team in an All Ireland Final new tactics have been frowned upon by some people. Mick Mackey was criticized for solo running even within his own county. If you think the game moved faster before, look at any of the two '18 semi finals and then look at any of the nineties championship games that are on utube, as I have done recently, and the '18 games are way better spectacles. As for professional back room teams some teams always been ahead of the frame. Going back to '87 Tipp were running huge fund raising nights when other counties were not. Back in the '70s In Cork good hurlers were guaranteed well paid jobs in the business houses of the city, while in limerick rugby players got those plum jobs and many good hurlers in the county had to emigrate.. There has never been an even playing field and there never will be. Anyway how are you going to stop well funded back room teams- ? insist that every county has one trainer and two selectors and no back room team as it was back in the fifties- I dont think so.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4495 - 03/08/2021 10:19:41    2367155

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's the modern way in most or all team sports. Makes sense if you want to win. And pretty pointless any team running out on the pitch at all if they dont want to win. Agreed it's not always the best spectacle but the reason behind team sports from the get go was to beat the other teams and try to be the best. Entertaining spectators would be a distant second. And even more so for amateur players as they dont get a cent of any extra income generated by having more spectators."
It's equally pointless for a team that abides by the ethos of the association to go out against a professional set-up playing under the guise of amateurism.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 03/08/2021 10:28:24    2367159

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Replying To baire:  "It's equally pointless for a team that abides by the ethos of the association to go out against a professional set-up playing under the guise of amateurism."
By and large Wexford abide by the ethos of the GAA. Our clubs are nearly all genuinely dual clubs fielding adult teams in both codes at the highest level they can get to. We are unlike most other counties which have numerous hurling only and football only areas and clubs. Yes this has probably hurt us in both hurling and football over the years but we have still won multiple all Irelands in both codes and I hope in the future that Liam and Sam might return one day. As regards funding backroom teams etc it's up to every county board how much money they raise and how they choose to spend it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 11:03:55    2367174

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Replying To baire:  "It's equally pointless for a team that abides by the ethos of the association to go out against a professional set-up playing under the guise of amateurism."
And I suppose Galway are one of the heroes of this story. The pure amateur angels fighting the good fight

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 03/08/2021 11:11:22    2367178

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Look baire games change. If you want to talk about past glory days, look at championship games on utube from the oughties/nineties and the first touch of players to day is light years faster . The players are more athletic and the accuracy of most players is way better than it was twenty years ago. The game has changed and evolved, but I can tell this much that if you took hand passing totally out of the game in the morning completely- and that is the only way you can do it- Players like Hannon, Finn, Lynch Casey, Gulland & Co would probably be one of the best players in Ireland, and you would only have succeeded in slowing down the game further. The fact is that since 1897 when a Limerick team (who else!) brought a new tactic called hook and block to an All Ireland Final to successfully frustrate a possibly more skillful KKK team in an All Ireland Final new tactics have been frowned upon by some people. Mick Mackey was criticized for solo running even within his own county. If you think the game moved faster before, look at any of the two '18 semi finals and then look at any of the nineties championship games that are on utube, as I have done recently, and the '18 games are way better spectacles. As for professional back room teams some teams always been ahead of the frame. Going back to '87 Tipp were running huge fund raising nights when other counties were not. Back in the '70s In Cork good hurlers were guaranteed well paid jobs in the business houses of the city, while in limerick rugby players got those plum jobs and many good hurlers in the county had to emigrate.. There has never been an even playing field and there never will be. Anyway how are you going to stop well funded back room teams- ? insist that every county has one trainer and two selectors and no back room team as it was back in the fifties- I dont think so."
I agree, life evolves and the game changes but lets not pretend it's still an amateur sport. You are right, the better resourced teams with clout at provincial and headquarter's level, counties not badly hit by unemployment and emigration were obviously more 'successful'. I'm not talking about past glory days, they belonged mostly to KK, Tipp and Cork. Comparing amateur players of the 50s - 80s, before the introduction of professionalism and a lighter sliotar to the modern era is unfair and somewhat superior.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 03/08/2021 11:13:04    2367180

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Replying To baire:  "Personally I'd prefer an open draw, non-provincial championship and a level-playing field for all. The Munster championship could still be run off as a separate knockout competition, as it used to be. Unfortunately provincial politics has ruled the GAA since 1884 and it hasn't helped to develop the game outside of the usual 8-10 counties."
Neither provincial or open draw or any other type of championship will change the lot of the weaker hurling counties. Truth is it's only from within that they can improve and most could not be bothered.

I would say more people from the traditional hurling counties know and care that Mayo and Fermanagh just won trophies than the people in those counties

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 03/08/2021 11:17:30    2367181

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Replying To Breezy:  "Neither provincial or open draw or any other type of championship will change the lot of the weaker hurling counties. Truth is it's only from within that they can improve and most could not be bothered.

I would say more people from the traditional hurling counties know and care that Mayo and Fermanagh just won trophies than the people in those counties"
I'm not sure that the traditional hurling counties care overly for the progress of the weaker counties. They're more concerned with themselves.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 03/08/2021 11:36:42    2367188

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "But still it took a fair team to beat Kilkenny about 10 points in each of three different finals and took them to a replay in '14- Who else has done it- and yes KK were the greatest team ever, but even in 2009, when they were at there Zenith Tipp did take them down to the wire. Don't get wrong as a Limerick man, I am no big fan of Tipps, but you to admit they too are often a tough nut to crack."
What defined Kilkenny as the great team were the games against Tipp. Tipp put it up to Kilkenny in every way and Kilkenny answered them most of the time. When you think back about Kilkenny they will always be married to the numerous games with Tipp that were so skillfull ,and exciting. If Kilkenny weren't so good at the time Tipp may well have been considered one of the greatest teams of all time. To be great you have to beat great teams.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 03/08/2021 11:36:44    2367189

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Replying To Viking66:  "By and large Wexford abide by the ethos of the GAA. Our clubs are nearly all genuinely dual clubs fielding adult teams in both codes at the highest level they can get to. We are unlike most other counties which have numerous hurling only and football only areas and clubs. Yes this has probably hurt us in both hurling and football over the years but we have still won multiple all Irelands in both codes and I hope in the future that Liam and Sam might return one day. As regards funding backroom teams etc it's up to every county board how much money they raise and how they choose to spend it."
Viking. Not attempting o be sarcastic, but if Sam ever comes to your county or mine, although Wexford has five All Irelands and the Treaty have two, it will not be 'returning' as neither of us have won it before. I do feel that if both Limerick and Wexford had concentrated on maybe hurling in the early oughties All Ireland success might have been achieved.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4495 - 03/08/2021 11:46:22    2367193

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Replying To gatha:  "What defined Kilkenny as the great team were the games against Tipp. Tipp put it up to Kilkenny in every way and Kilkenny answered them most of the time. When you think back about Kilkenny they will always be married to the numerous games with Tipp that were so skillfull ,and exciting. If Kilkenny weren't so good at the time Tipp may well have been considered one of the greatest teams of all time. To be great you have to beat great teams."
That's exactly it gatha. In order to achieve greatness you have to defeat greatness. That's what Kilkenny did when they defeated Tipperary in those magnificent contests. Those two teams will forever be bound together as a result of those contests. Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier are forever bound together in peoples minds. Their legacy and greatness was seared in to the public consciousness as a result of their epic fights. It is the exact same with Kilkenny and Tipperary.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6180 - 03/08/2021 12:31:18    2367210

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Replying To gatha:  "What defined Kilkenny as the great team were the games against Tipp. Tipp put it up to Kilkenny in every way and Kilkenny answered them most of the time. When you think back about Kilkenny they will always be married to the numerous games with Tipp that were so skillfull ,and exciting. If Kilkenny weren't so good at the time Tipp may well have been considered one of the greatest teams of all time. To be great you have to beat great teams."
They were the dominant team for a period of 20 years for a number of reasons, but Brian Cody as a driven, obsessive, ruthless and intelligent manager was the main reason - a manager who got himself onto the GAA rules committee while still managing KK - the GAA not having the cojones to prevent such a conflict of interest and abuse of power.
Other reasons:
KK obviously have tradition and hurlers (having been weaned off the cricket).
Success breeds success.
Other competing sports are frowned upon if not prohibited in KK, eg gaelic football, soccer, rugby.
A strong Norman ancestry with a huge history of conquest and subjugating gaels!
An insatiable desire to win, not for the sake of winning, but to boast about being the best team of all time, to convince themselves that Shefflin was a better hurler than Canning and to constantly remind others of their huge haul of medals and All Ireland titles!
Not being satisfied to beat teams but to humiliate and obliterate them off the pitch while publicly claiming that the game was competitive!
Years of abuse from Tipp!
The dark arts - shhhhh!

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 03/08/2021 12:46:57    2367217

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I'm not sure that the traditional hurling counties care overly for the progress of the weaker counties. They're more concerned with themselves."
I don't think that the county boards in traditional hurling counties care about weaker ones and nor should they.

I meant that fans in those counties are more likely to check the results and watch the highlights of Joe McD and the other divisions than fans from the counties involved would

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 03/08/2021 13:34:11    2367237

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Viking. Not attempting o be sarcastic, but if Sam ever comes to your county or mine, although Wexford has five All Irelands and the Treaty have two, it will not be 'returning' as neither of us have won it before. I do feel that if both Limerick and Wexford had concentrated on maybe hurling in the early oughties All Ireland success might have been achieved."
Suppose it wasnt Sam back then lol!!!! Point I was making who knows what the lay of the land in football or hurling might be in 50 or 100 years. Might be a Limerick v Wexford Football final for Sam or his successor in 30 years time!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 13:53:28    2367245

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Replying To baire:  "They were the dominant team for a period of 20 years for a number of reasons, but Brian Cody as a driven, obsessive, ruthless and intelligent manager was the main reason - a manager who got himself onto the GAA rules committee while still managing KK - the GAA not having the cojones to prevent such a conflict of interest and abuse of power.
Other reasons:
KK obviously have tradition and hurlers (having been weaned off the cricket).
Success breeds success.
Other competing sports are frowned upon if not prohibited in KK, eg gaelic football, soccer, rugby.
A strong Norman ancestry with a huge history of conquest and subjugating gaels!
An insatiable desire to win, not for the sake of winning, but to boast about being the best team of all time, to convince themselves that Shefflin was a better hurler than Canning and to constantly remind others of their huge haul of medals and All Ireland titles!
Not being satisfied to beat teams but to humiliate and obliterate them off the pitch while publicly claiming that the game was competitive!
Years of abuse from Tipp!
The dark arts - shhhhh!"
That's a bit harsh on the lads. I travel through Kilkenny quite a lot with work etc and you see young lads out pucking a ball all year round in the little villages and towns. Might this not have more to do with their recent success than Norman ancestry perhaps?!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 13:58:33    2367249

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Replying To Breezy:  "I don't think that the county boards in traditional hurling counties care about weaker ones and nor should they.

I meant that fans in those counties are more likely to check the results and watch the highlights of Joe McD and the other divisions than fans from the counties involved would"
I do and so do you and I'd guess most posters on this thread.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15895 - 03/08/2021 13:59:52    2367250

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Replying To baire:  "TJ side line cuts? Don't think so."
Okay is it still not ground hurling or am I missing something like the ball maybe up in the air ?

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3057 - 03/08/2021 14:25:26    2367265

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Replying To baire:  "They were the dominant team for a period of 20 years for a number of reasons, but Brian Cody as a driven, obsessive, ruthless and intelligent manager was the main reason - a manager who got himself onto the GAA rules committee while still managing KK - the GAA not having the cojones to prevent such a conflict of interest and abuse of power.
Other reasons:
KK obviously have tradition and hurlers (having been weaned off the cricket).
Success breeds success.
Other competing sports are frowned upon if not prohibited in KK, eg gaelic football, soccer, rugby.
A strong Norman ancestry with a huge history of conquest and subjugating gaels!
An insatiable desire to win, not for the sake of winning, but to boast about being the best team of all time, to convince themselves that Shefflin was a better hurler than Canning and to constantly remind others of their huge haul of medals and All Ireland titles!
Not being satisfied to beat teams but to humiliate and obliterate them off the pitch while publicly claiming that the game was competitive!
Years of abuse from Tipp!
The dark arts - shhhhh!"
LOL

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 03/08/2021 14:35:54    2367273

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