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National Forum

Wexford Club Hurling Championships 2023

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Look, there is a world of difference between fielding a team and actually being committed to the game. I would say many clubs in Wexford field football teams because 1. There's a few of the football "guerilla's" (to rob the term above) in their club who would kick up blue murder at the AGM if not and 2. Well, what else is there to do from mid-August if not?

I get people might say "Look at St. Annes Rathangan and how well they do in both" but that's just a handful of clubs and to be fair, I bet if Oulart or Rathnure committed 30-40% of their time to football they could be a good dual club and might win a couple of Wexford football titles. Instead, their ambition was higher and went all out and won Leinster titles and Oulart definitely should have won more. Rathnure if I remember right came up against a really great Kilruane McDonaghs team in the late 90s?

What Wexford are trying to do now is unsustainable and is not conducive to Wexford adult teams winning Leinster and All-Ireland titles. The county is big enough to sustain both but not in the current guise. If we want top players, and top Wexford teams in both codes, something has to give but that is the changing world we live in and the pursuit of top level achievement.

Players need to be playing more games, more meaningful games and having a championship which lasts longer than 6 weeks. If Wexford not being in the Leinster championship is the fall guy to allow our championships time to breathe, cest la vie."
100%

Someone above was referencing "before the split season came in" as some form of reference, ye might as well be referencing the 60's or 70's such has been the fundemental changes that has occurred hence.

Thats before the GAA HQ decided to bring in their own split season and shorten the intercounty season (another issue but nevertheless) and before Covid.

We currently run the same championship in 2023 as we did in 2019 (however back then we did alternate blocks of games) but crucially back then we had the opportunity to play 2 rounds in each code in March and April. We had scope and space to run it under those circumstances. Just for perspective in 2019 we got to an All Ireland semi final and our club season ended on the 27th of October. This year it will end on the 15th of October

We simply dont have the scope to run it now like that, something has to give, clubs dont even realise what theyre voting for half the time wanting whats impossible but not willing to deal with the fall out. Ive seen club delegates moan about not having a break during the championship but insisting on this structure and under no circumstances should we not play in the Leinster Club championships!

Its not currently sustainable.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1699 - 04/07/2023 15:21:39    2492187

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Replying To tearintom:  "100%

Someone above was referencing "before the split season came in" as some form of reference, ye might as well be referencing the 60's or 70's such has been the fundemental changes that has occurred hence.

Thats before the GAA HQ decided to bring in their own split season and shorten the intercounty season (another issue but nevertheless) and before Covid.

We currently run the same championship in 2023 as we did in 2019 (however back then we did alternate blocks of games) but crucially back then we had the opportunity to play 2 rounds in each code in March and April. We had scope and space to run it under those circumstances. Just for perspective in 2019 we got to an All Ireland semi final and our club season ended on the 27th of October. This year it will end on the 15th of October

We simply dont have the scope to run it now like that, something has to give, clubs dont even realise what theyre voting for half the time wanting whats impossible but not willing to deal with the fall out. Ive seen club delegates moan about not having a break during the championship but insisting on this structure and under no circumstances should we not play in the Leinster Club championships!

Its not currently sustainable."
Agreed but we only have the time we have for our club championships. That's set out by GAA/Leinster HQ. The time allowed is the same for every county though. And many have far shorter club championships with less games than we do.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 04/07/2023 15:55:23    2492208

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed but we only have the time we have for our club championships. That's set out by GAA/Leinster HQ. The time allowed is the same for every county though. And many have far shorter club championships with less games than we do."
I think that's the key thing here. Too many people blaming the club championship for failure at intercounty and for me that is just not valid. Could the championship be better, is it unfair that a lad gets injured and could miss all of the championship in his preferred sport, yes but so too are there advantages however I cannot see how it could be blamed for under performance at intercounty. Look at the size of the intercounty panels from underage up, a lot of the players are also playing third level which is just below intercounty, there is no way that these players are not getting the coaching and games already.
The club championship should be for the 90% of the players playing to game so that they continue to play and enjoy the game - do what is best for them and keep them in the game as long as possible so perhaps their own kids see them playing or even get to play with them. That's what will get the kids inspired and that's what we need, the younger generation to get out and work and work on the skills - as someone said, they need to be out in the backyard more practicing the skills more.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2235 - 04/07/2023 21:38:27    2492295

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Look, there is a world of difference between fielding a team and actually being committed to the game. I would say many clubs in Wexford field football teams because 1. There's a few of the football "guerilla's" (to rob the term above) in their club who would kick up blue murder at the AGM if not and 2. Well, what else is there to do from mid-August if not?

I get people might say "Look at St. Annes Rathangan and how well they do in both" but that's just a handful of clubs and to be fair, I bet if Oulart or Rathnure committed 30-40% of their time to football they could be a good dual club and might win a couple of Wexford football titles. Instead, their ambition was higher and went all out and won Leinster titles and Oulart definitely should have won more. Rathnure if I remember right came up against a really great Kilruane McDonaghs team in the late 90s?

What Wexford are trying to do now is unsustainable and is not conducive to Wexford adult teams winning Leinster and All-Ireland titles. The county is big enough to sustain both but not in the current guise. If we want top players, and top Wexford teams in both codes, something has to give but that is the changing world we live in and the pursuit of top level achievement.

Players need to be playing more games, more meaningful games and having a championship which lasts longer than 6 weeks. If Wexford not being in the Leinster championship is the fall guy to allow our championships time to breathe, cest la vie."
Last year we won 2 of the 6 mens Leinster club titles and reached a 3rd final. Fethard won Intermediate football, Adamstown reached the Junior football final, and Horeswood won the Junior hurling title. Thats far better than any other county's record last year or in fact most years since there were Leinster club titles. So our general club standard couldn't be said to be bad. Or our club championship format in general. Horeswood won the Leinster Junior hurling title despite being involved in our club Intermediate football championship right up until the final.
What we haven't had since Oulart is a Senior club side to compete with the Hurling superclubs currently dominating the Leinster and AI scene. Currently Ballyhale and Crokes have excellent teams. St Mullins in Carlow have 8 or 9 members of a Liam Mccarthy team. We haven't one club who had more than 2 players regularly start in the Senior Championship this year.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 05/07/2023 08:30:30    2492313

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Look, there is a world of difference between fielding a team and actually being committed to the game. I would say many clubs in Wexford field football teams because 1. There's a few of the football "guerilla's" (to rob the term above) in their club who would kick up blue murder at the AGM if not and 2. Well, what else is there to do from mid-August if not?

I get people might say "Look at St. Annes Rathangan and how well they do in both" but that's just a handful of clubs and to be fair, I bet if Oulart or Rathnure committed 30-40% of their time to football they could be a good dual club and might win a couple of Wexford football titles. Instead, their ambition was higher and went all out and won Leinster titles and Oulart definitely should have won more. Rathnure if I remember right came up against a really great Kilruane McDonaghs team in the late 90s?

What Wexford are trying to do now is unsustainable and is not conducive to Wexford adult teams winning Leinster and All-Ireland titles. The county is big enough to sustain both but not in the current guise. If we want top players, and top Wexford teams in both codes, something has to give but that is the changing world we live in and the pursuit of top level achievement.

Players need to be playing more games, more meaningful games and having a championship which lasts longer than 6 weeks. If Wexford not being in the Leinster championship is the fall guy to allow our championships time to breathe, cest la vie."
Last year we won 2 of the 6 mens Leinster club titles and reached a 3rd final. Fethard won Intermediate football, Adamstown reached the Junior football final, and Horeswood won the Junior hurling title. Thats far better than any other county's record last year or in fact most years since there were Leinster club titles. So our general club standard couldn't be said to be bad. Or our club championship format in general. Horeswood won the Leinster Junior hurling title despite being involved in our club Intermediate football championship right up until the final.
What we haven't had since Oulart is a Senior club side to compete with the Hurling superclubs currently dominating the Leinster and AI scene. Currently Ballyhale and Crokes have excellent teams. St Mullins in Carlow have 8 or 9 members of a Liam Mccarthy team. We haven't one club who had more than 2 players regularly start in the Senior Championship this year.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 05/07/2023 08:31:22    2492314

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Replying To Viking66:  "Agreed but we only have the time we have for our club championships. That's set out by GAA/Leinster HQ. The time allowed is the same for every county though. And many have far shorter club championships with less games than we do."
And we need shorter championship also. With the time we have, its too rushed, too many games.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 1093 - 05/07/2023 09:26:36    2492321

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Players need games. The Wexford hurling championship is close, it's intense, it's exciting. It's also more open than it's ever been. I've lived through where Rathnure and Buffers Alley were utterly dominant, then Oulart. This year at least eight teams think they can go very deep into the championship.
As for the "dead rubber" theory, the last round last year saw great games, great drama, and no team coasting. The structure of the championship means teams are trying to build momentum week-to-week, so the foot stays on the pedal.
I'm not sure how good the quality is, but it's no worse than when we'd have a match on Whit weekend, and then no game until the August Bank Holiday.
With a county final played in muck and gutter.
I'm not saying the current format is perfect, but less games is not better, and more time is not available.
The split season is an issue, but the simple truth is that if we revert to a blended season, we will still have a game every week. We'll just be alternating between hurling and football. Which means club players training in both codes simulaneously.
That's a bigger source of burnout and injury, in my opinion. I haven't seen any analysis of injury frequency since the championship's went the way they did.
There is one thing that might be a new truism. County players, especially coming to the later stages of their careers, may not be able to play both codes at club level. Their bodies need a rest at some stage of the year, and their county obligations see them flat-out from December (even if it is only individual training) to the end of June.
I know it's not fair on football that it follows hurling, but the upside is everybody fully commits to club football for those two months.
As for the inter-couinty club championships, we should as a a county propose that our 2023 champions play in the 2024 Leinster championships. A lot of other counties would follow suit. I'd bet. That would take a lot of pressure off the overall calendar.

wendellgee (Wexford) - Posts: 33 - 05/07/2023 10:52:30    2492345

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Replying To countyman2022:  "And we need shorter championship also. With the time we have, its too rushed, too many games."
Clubs voted 100% against shorted championship at Convention .. 3 Groups of 4 was proposed .. For teams training 10 months and maybe only get 3 championship games

MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 367 - 05/07/2023 11:07:55    2492353

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Replying To Viking66:  "Last year we won 2 of the 6 mens Leinster club titles and reached a 3rd final. Fethard won Intermediate football, Adamstown reached the Junior football final, and Horeswood won the Junior hurling title. Thats far better than any other county's record last year or in fact most years since there were Leinster club titles. So our general club standard couldn't be said to be bad. Or our club championship format in general. Horeswood won the Leinster Junior hurling title despite being involved in our club Intermediate football championship right up until the final.
What we haven't had since Oulart is a Senior club side to compete with the Hurling superclubs currently dominating the Leinster and AI scene. Currently Ballyhale and Crokes have excellent teams. St Mullins in Carlow have 8 or 9 members of a Liam Mccarthy team. We haven't one club who had more than 2 players regularly start in the Senior Championship this year."
I don't get your point.
You are using very nuanced examples, yes they did but the flagship team were well beaten by the Carlow champions and had 1 player on the county team this year, wasn't it?
It clutching straws to say St. Mullins had 8 or 9 member of a Liam McCarthy cup team, they are Joe McDonagh team and you'd still expect the Wexford champions to be beating them if Wexford really is a hurling powerhouse, no? Ballyhale beat them because they believed they were better than them, albeit they are a special club.

Its not just this year, I don't think Wexford bar Oulart have produced a decent county champion in about 20 years. I get the argument that talent is spread across more clubs but is it not worrying that Ferns had 1 (?) player on the inter county team this year?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1635 - 05/07/2023 12:41:27    2492394

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How about 16 teams in each grade but with an A sub-division and a B sub-division in every grade?

16 teams in Senior; 8 in Senior A and 8 in Senior B
2 group of 4

Top 2 in the two Senior A groups advance to the QFs

Bottom 2 in the two Senior A groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are in Senior B the next year

Top 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are out

Bottok 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners are done for the year, losers then play each other in a relegation playoff

That way, every team would have at least four Championship games. It would also reduce the number of weeks needed to complete the Championship from 8 to 7.

Maybe 16 is too much and would mean fewer teams winning a trophy at the end of the season but I suppose no proposal is without fault.

ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 1530 - 05/07/2023 13:38:27    2492406

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "I don't get your point.
You are using very nuanced examples, yes they did but the flagship team were well beaten by the Carlow champions and had 1 player on the county team this year, wasn't it?
It clutching straws to say St. Mullins had 8 or 9 member of a Liam McCarthy cup team, they are Joe McDonagh team and you'd still expect the Wexford champions to be beating them if Wexford really is a hurling powerhouse, no? Ballyhale beat them because they believed they were better than them, albeit they are a special club.

Its not just this year, I don't think Wexford bar Oulart have produced a decent county champion in about 20 years. I get the argument that talent is spread across more clubs but is it not worrying that Ferns had 1 (?) player on the inter county team this year?"
MLR won a Leinster club championship. You still don't get it. If MLR and St Mullins were playing in our championship they might very well win it. They regularly beat Kiljenny Senior clubs in challenge games the last few years.
Carlow are less successful than us because they have way less Senior and Intermediate clubs, not because those clubs are of a worse standard. Another example. Antrim clubs have a better AI club record overall than ours, Tipps, Clares, Limericks, Waterfords and Dublins, giving 1 point for an AI final appearance and 2 for an AI win. Dunloy gave Ballyhale their strongest challenge all year.
Club hurling success isn't related to Senior intercounty success neccessarily.
To answer your question a club can be successful without many Senior intercounty players. Ferns is the proof of it though they had 5 players I saw play for Wexford this year maybe you didn't go to too many games? They have a few former intercounty players also. Rapps won it with just 2 also. 3 if you include Pepper.
Isn't it better that our Senior club championship is no longer dominated by 1 or 2 clubs? When Oulart had 7, 8, 9, lads on our intercounty team in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, did it do us any good? Has Ballygunners dominance done Waterford any good? Though they don't have many on the Waterfird 1st team either. NaP and Kilmallock are dominating in Limerick. Not too many of their players on their county teams either. Not too many Ballyea players on Clares team either.
I don't really understand any of your post tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 05/07/2023 14:13:15    2492422

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "I don't get your point.
You are using very nuanced examples, yes they did but the flagship team were well beaten by the Carlow champions and had 1 player on the county team this year, wasn't it?
It clutching straws to say St. Mullins had 8 or 9 member of a Liam McCarthy cup team, they are Joe McDonagh team and you'd still expect the Wexford champions to be beating them if Wexford really is a hurling powerhouse, no? Ballyhale beat them because they believed they were better than them, albeit they are a special club.

Its not just this year, I don't think Wexford bar Oulart have produced a decent county champion in about 20 years. I get the argument that talent is spread across more clubs but is it not worrying that Ferns had 1 (?) player on the inter county team this year?"
MLR won a Leinster club championship. You still don't get it. If MLR and St Mullins were playing in our championship they might very well win it. They regularly beat Kilkenny Senior clubs in challenge games the last few years.
Carlow are less successful than us because they have way less Senior and Intermediate clubs, not because those clubs are of a worse standard. Another example. Antrim clubs have a better AI club record overall than ours, Tipps, Clares, Limericks, Waterfords and Dublins, giving 1 point for an AI final appearance and 2 for an AI win. Dunloy gave Ballyhale their strongest challenge all year.
Club hurling success isn't related to Senior intercounty success neccessarily.
To answer your question a club can be successful without many Senior intercounty players. Ferns is the proof of it though they had 5 players I saw play for Wexford this year maybe you didn't go to too many games? They have a few former intercounty players also. Rapps won it with just 2 also. 3 if you include Pepper.
Isn't it better that our Senior club championship is no longer dominated by 1 or 2 clubs? When Oulart had 7, 8, 9, lads on our intercounty team in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, did it do us any good? Has Ballygunners dominance done Waterford any good? Though they don't have many on the Waterford 1st team either. NaP and Kilmallock are dominating in Limerick. Not too many of their players on their county team either. Not too many Ballyea players on Clares team either.
I don't really understand any of your post tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 05/07/2023 14:14:51    2492425

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Replying To ElGranSenor:  "How about 16 teams in each grade but with an A sub-division and a B sub-division in every grade?

16 teams in Senior; 8 in Senior A and 8 in Senior B
2 group of 4

Top 2 in the two Senior A groups advance to the QFs

Bottom 2 in the two Senior A groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are in Senior B the next year

Top 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are out

Bottok 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners are done for the year, losers then play each other in a relegation playoff

That way, every team would have at least four Championship games. It would also reduce the number of weeks needed to complete the Championship from 8 to 7.

Maybe 16 is too much and would mean fewer teams winning a trophy at the end of the season but I suppose no proposal is without fault."
Not a bad plan either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 05/07/2023 14:15:50    2492427

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Replying To ElGranSenor:  "How about 16 teams in each grade but with an A sub-division and a B sub-division in every grade?

16 teams in Senior; 8 in Senior A and 8 in Senior B
2 group of 4

Top 2 in the two Senior A groups advance to the QFs

Bottom 2 in the two Senior A groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are in Senior B the next year

Top 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners go to the QFs, losers are out

Bottok 2 in the two Senior B groups play off; winners are done for the year, losers then play each other in a relegation playoff

That way, every team would have at least four Championship games. It would also reduce the number of weeks needed to complete the Championship from 8 to 7.

Maybe 16 is too much and would mean fewer teams winning a trophy at the end of the season but I suppose no proposal is without fault."
Again molly coddling teams with Senior A and Senior B terms.

Having 16 senior teams just for the sake of it.

Senior B is intermediate

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 05/07/2023 15:21:02    2492458

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Replying To beano:  "If only Wexford Park had state of the art floodlights!"
There's a condition in the planning permission for the floodlights that they can only be used a certain number of times per year. Would have to look up what that number is, but pretty sure it's somewhere in the region of 15 or 16.

Means that using the lights for hurling matches now in July would greatly reduce the opportunity to put football championship matches under lights in September/October.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4052 - 05/07/2023 16:26:23    2492484

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Round 2 Predictions hopefully more than last round

Gorey v Harriers: Gorey should have too much firepower but would expect an improved Harriers performance. Gorey by 4

Glynn V Martins: Martins to bounce back and win by 5+
Anne's v Oilgate: Think this will be a close one, a lot depending if Dee O Keefe is available, a Draw

Crossabeg V Rapps: Rapps seem to back to their free scoring form and should win this by 3
Ferns v Oulart: County champions should win this by 5+
Shels v rathnure : big game for both teams after opening round defeats shels will have too much. Shels by 4

WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 369 - 05/07/2023 18:10:17    2492509

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "There's a condition in the planning permission for the floodlights that they can only be used a certain number of times per year. Would have to look up what that number is, but pretty sure it's somewhere in the region of 15 or 16.

Means that using the lights for hurling matches now in July would greatly reduce the opportunity to put football championship matches under lights in September/October."
No restrictions on use of floodlights except they are not allowed be on after 10 pm. Were do lads come up with these stories?

LarryOBrother (Wexford) - Posts: 412 - 06/07/2023 09:20:41    2492562

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Replying To LarryOBrother:  "No restrictions on use of floodlights except they are not allowed be on after 10 pm. Were do lads come up with these stories?"
Hmmm. Okay, I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong.

I was told earlier this year by somebody who's normally in the know about such things that there's a limit to the number of times the lights can be used. That's where I "came up with the story".

But have just looked up the planning file online, and you're right - only condition there as regards use is that they can only be used between 9 a.m. and 10 p.m. Says nothing about how many times a year. I stand corrected.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 4052 - 06/07/2023 10:51:26    2492599

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Replying To WexMurph:  "Round 2 Predictions hopefully more than last round

Gorey v Harriers: Gorey should have too much firepower but would expect an improved Harriers performance. Gorey by 4

Glynn V Martins: Martins to bounce back and win by 5+
Anne's v Oilgate: Think this will be a close one, a lot depending if Dee O Keefe is available, a Draw

Crossabeg V Rapps: Rapps seem to back to their free scoring form and should win this by 3
Ferns v Oulart: County champions should win this by 5+
Shels v rathnure : big game for both teams after opening round defeats shels will have too much. Shels by 4"
I was woeful with the Senior predictions last week only 2 right!
Senior-
Gorey
Martins
Anne's
Rapps
Ferns
Shels
Intermediate-
Bunclody v Rocks- Bunclody just about- Bunclody looked sharp at the start of the last game and JJ Doyle will have had them working hard during the week. Conor Devitt will quarterback the Rocks team and Curtis, Kinsella, Hughes and Co will be full of running so I'd be expecting it to be close.
Adamstown v Askamore- Askamore by plenty- Adamstown are badly hit by injuries although PJ a big loss for Askamore if he's still out.
Jimmy's v Taghmon- Taghmon by 1 or 2- Taghmon started poorly but then improved as the game went on against Bunclody. Matthew a big loss for the Jimmys though they have 2 quick, scoring forwards in O Grady and Shane Murphy who will be dangerous, along with a solid back 8.
Fethard v Blackwater- Fethard by a couple- forwards surely couldn't be as bad as the last day, and Cian Byrne will never miss as many frees in a game as the last day if he plays til he's 40, and the short passing game will have improved with another weeks training. Hard to see where Blackwater are going to score enough from.
Horeswood v Buffers Alley- the Alley by a good few. Horeswood missing too many players and while this year might be a year or 2 too soon for the Alley to go up they should have enough even with Kenny out again.
Gusserane v Cloughbawn- Cloughbawn but might be closer than lads think. Gusserane have power and pace aplenty and the lads who haven't held a hurl for the last 7 or 8 months will be getting sharper week on week.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 20706 - 06/07/2023 11:06:30    2492606

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Replying To WexMurph:  "Round 2 Predictions hopefully more than last round

Gorey v Harriers: Gorey should have too much firepower but would expect an improved Harriers performance. Gorey by 4

Glynn V Martins: Martins to bounce back and win by 5+
Anne's v Oilgate: Think this will be a close one, a lot depending if Dee O Keefe is available, a Draw

Crossabeg V Rapps: Rapps seem to back to their free scoring form and should win this by 3
Ferns v Oulart: County champions should win this by 5+
Shels v rathnure : big game for both teams after opening round defeats shels will have too much. Shels by 4"
Gorey; when they hit form they're the best goal scorers in Wexford club hurling. Win by 3
Martin's; like always, don't know what Martin's will show up, could win by 10 or loose by 3, always hard to know but if they're serious about going far need to win and win by 5.
Anne's; think nearly always guaranteed a performance by them, win by 2
Rapps; looked very impressive, albeit playing a very limited Rathnure side, but still look good, win by 4
Ferns; Ferns by 4, Oulart will work hard but don't have the hurlers to punish on scoreboard, Ferns looking good again this year.
Shels; Shels to bounce back and win by 4/5. Will be there there abouts.

Throughthemidfieldhewasstormin (Wexford) - Posts: 332 - 06/07/2023 12:09:18    2492624

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