National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah if it's straight knockout, I just think everyone should just enter.

I do agree what I proposed above could be seen as an expanded super 8s. You'd just hope that with there being 2 championships in the same format starting at the same time that it'd feel like the start of a new competition."
A group stage can work after the provincial championships. It's down to the fixture scheduling which they would have looked at for the Super 8s third year except for the pandemic.
An example of a Final 16 group of 4;
Weekend 1: Match 1 has provincial winner at home versus an opponent. Match 2 between the 2 other teams.
Weekend 2: The winners of Match 1 and Match 2. The losers of Match 1 and Match 2. (In the event of a draw or draws in Weekend 1, the team from the higher pot ranking takes the place of winner for scheduling purposes.)
Weekend 3: Guaranteed that at least 1 match is a winnner takes it all and this will be the live game on TV getting the media focus.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 25/10/2021 14:08:21    2387296

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I want to see 16 in the all Ireland and 16 in the Tailteann Cup.

10 from league
Div 1 - 5
Div 2 - 3
Div 3 - 1
Div 4 - 1

The following 6 will qualify too.
Provincial winners - 4
Previous All Ireland winner - 1
Previous Tailteann Cup winner - 1

In an average year there will be overlap so allocate extra places by league position
Div 1 6th
Div 2 4th
Div 1 7th
Div 2 5th
Div 1 8th
Div 2 6th

Typically the following will qualify:
Div 1 - 8
Div 2 - 6
Div 3 - 1
Div 4 - 1

I think the only year in the last 10 where more than one team was not qualified by league position was when Tipp and Cavan won their provinces. That year would have had:
Div 1 - 7
Div 2 - 5
Div 3 - 3
Div 4 - 1

Based on the past year the following will be in the All Ireland
Dublin
Kerry
Donegal
Tyrone
Armagh
Monaghan
Mayo
Galway
Kildare
Roscommon
Clare
Meath
Cork
Down
Derry
Antrim

Straight knockout, 4 groups of 4, seeded or open draw. Doesn't matter.

You'll have the league really mattering and the provincial championships offering a way into the All Ireland for div 3 counties.

The Tailtean Cup will have a guaranteed spot in next years All Ireland and be an achievable target for many counties in it. For ref based on last year the Cup would have:
Laois
Westmeath
Offaly
Limerick
Tipperary
Wicklow
Cavan
Fermanagh
Longford
Louth
Sligo
Leitrim
Carlow
Waterford
Wexford
London

Side note: New York can still play in the Connacht championship

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 100 - 25/10/2021 15:21:22    2387305

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Listening to these debates over the past few years i'm now more convinced than ever we are not even sure what problem we are trying to solve. The allireland competition in its current format has existed for over a 100 years. In those years many a heavy beating has been handed out and this will continue to happen no matter what structure you implement. But more importantly is that so called weaker teams have had days in the sun with Cavan, Tipperary, louth & Wexford to name a few.

We changed our structure a few years ago and introduced the famous super 8's and this had its own issues with dead rubbers and mismatches. What made it worse is that the bigger team could even afford a few bad days at the office and still win an Ireland.

To me, the issue is not with the structure of the competition, its with the structure of the individual counties. By this i mean the capability of any county to produce a panel of 30 that are competitive and capable to take part in competitions. Addressing the competition structure is not addressing the root causes within these counties.

So, lets address structure within the counties, funding, games development etc because thats where the real beatings and hammering are taking place.

If you have a pain in your wrist , you don't keep trying different painkillers until the pain goes away. You have to look deeper for the real problem.

ponger (Cavan) - Posts: 477 - 25/10/2021 19:29:14    2387332

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There will never be a change until a rule is brought in which states that each club must have at least 3 ex players from within this past 7 years on there Committee. One of these must be one if there club to county delegates.This could then be mirrored at county level. Again at least 3 players who retired within the past 7 years. At least one of these players must become a county to national delegate
Too many stalwarts from clubs and counties are far too politically motivated and vote to suit this political stance. Not a thought given to what their county meetings decided.

border Gael (Monaghan) - Posts: 823 - 25/10/2021 20:00:20    2387336

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Replying To Saynothing:  "We're living in a world of people looking something for nothing, teams that are not good enough shouldn't be taking the place of lower Div 1 and 2 teams for the sake of playing against the big boys. Earn your right ithrough the qualifiers if your beat early on in championship."
Complete nonsense once again from you, everyone is well aware realistic all ireland hopes are limited to 4 or 5 teams but everyone is entitled tona proper programme of games further into the year.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 25/10/2021 21:19:52    2387353

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Here's an idea. Have your Champions League-style group stage, 4 groups of 8, and top two go into the knockout rounds. Then play it out to a final four. Then, either afterwards or dispersed through the CL thing, play the provincial championships, and that will give you four provincial champions. These four teams plus the four teams from the other thing are your All-Ireland quarterfinalists. And if any teams qualify both ways, they get a bye to the semifinals. Not perfect but it keeps the provincials intact and important and it introduces extra games for everyone.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 699 - 26/10/2021 07:15:19    2387360

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Listening to OTB and Tom Parsons and they don't seem to understand that a slightly bigger financial package and a few tweaks won't get this over the line. No provincial link and granting lower tier teams with a place in Sam over teams competing in Div 1 will ensure it remains dead. Parsons mentioned they had over 20 proposals to pick from and B was the best. I doubt that. Come back with a similar proposal and it will fail again.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 26/10/2021 08:53:34    2387362

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Can someone explain what I'm missing here? Joe Brolly wrote in the Sunday Independent ( whilst advocating the retention of the provincial championships ) that the primary goal of every player in Ulster is to win the Ulster Final. If that's true, then why does it need to be linked to the All Ireland ?

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 55 - 26/10/2021 09:53:38    2387374

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I must admit to being relieved with the vote on Saturday. As I said on here before I think breaking the provincial link would have been a massive mistake. I think this is why it failed to pass.

I was happy that it did get 50% of the vote. This sends a message that we believe change is needed and wanted just not this change.

Lets hope a better proposal is brought forward as soon as the next congress.

There a few on here talking about a "champions league" style qualifying tournament. The 8 groups of 4 format is definitely stale. The champions league is changing to a single group structure (based on the Swiss style) to get more variety in the games; get the bigger teams playing each other more often but still give a very equitable chance to lower ranked teams. I believe that structure could serve the GAA Championship very well. I don't think it would have much of a chance passing congress though.

As for a change that keeps tradition; take some good from proposal B and has a chance of passing. Have 12 teams qualifying for the All Ireland series; they would be the 4 provincial winners; the prior year Tailteann cup winner and the remaining taken from next ranked positions in the league. The top 4 in division 1 get into the 1/4 finals with the other 8 teams playing off in the preliminary 1/4 round. We could play provincial groups; followed by 5 rounds of the league; then provincial finals series and the final league rounds in that order to keep things interesting for as many teams as possible late into the season. I'd prefer a 1A & 1B league structure as well as it would put a greater degree of jeopardy into the league games.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 26/10/2021 10:32:24    2387380

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Replying To wexico15:  "Complete nonsense once again from you, everyone is well aware realistic all ireland hopes are limited to 4 or 5 teams but everyone is entitled tona proper programme of games further into the year."
Wexford are not entitled to be there by winning Div 4. Earn your place by winning Leinster or getting promoted to Div 2.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 26/10/2021 11:00:23    2387392

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Replying To wexico15:  "Complete nonsense once again from you, everyone is well aware realistic all ireland hopes are limited to 4 or 5 teams but everyone is entitled tona proper programme of games further into the year."
Limited to 4 or 5 teams still doesn't give lower teams the right for a easy passage to the last 16. What then , a good beating on a bigger stage, while 2 Div 1 teams look on. Start paddling your own canoe.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1018 - 26/10/2021 11:40:26    2387402

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Wexford are not entitled to be there by winning Div 4. Earn your place by winning Leinster or getting promoted to Div 2."
I never said they were entitled to make last 8, 10, 12 etc. but EVERY team no matter what division are entitled to a decent of games into the middle part of the year instead of just January-March and then 2-3 from that point on, you went completely off topic. Proposal B offered this.

On another point get your head out of Jim McGuinness's backside, the man arguably damaged Gaelic football more than anyone in the last 20 years, even hijacked your entire club championship at 1 point if my memory serves me right.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 26/10/2021 12:05:31    2387408

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Listening to OTB and Tom Parsons and they don't seem to understand that a slightly bigger financial package and a few tweaks won't get this over the line. No provincial link and granting lower tier teams with a place in Sam over teams competing in Div 1 will ensure it remains dead. Parsons mentioned they had over 20 proposals to pick from and B was the best. I doubt that. Come back with a similar proposal and it will fail again."
If you're waiting for the perfect proposal it's never going to happen, you try things, discover what works what doesn't, evolve the structure continually for a couple of years if needs be, but don't paralyse the game because you're petrified of change.
Unfortunately looking at the age demographic of the change makers nothing will now happen until fresh progressive men/women are in place who have a best for all Ireland approach to this.
Possibly 10 yrs or more, will anyone be left watching by then though..

cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 141 - 26/10/2021 12:18:21    2387413

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Replying To wexico15:  "I never said they were entitled to make last 8, 10, 12 etc. but EVERY team no matter what division are entitled to a decent of games into the middle part of the year instead of just January-March and then 2-3 from that point on, you went completely off topic. Proposal B offered this.

On another point get your head out of Jim McGuinness's backside, the man arguably damaged Gaelic football more than anyone in the last 20 years, even hijacked your entire club championship at 1 point if my memory serves me right."
You talk about wanting fairness but are okay with a system which punishes teams for being in Div 1. You last comment is funny. What do Wexford know about football. Only had a decent team because your hurlers were too afraid to face KK. Get back to me when a Wexford club wins their provincial title. The McGuinness plan is far better than Proposal B but no let's give a Div 4 side an easier route because they can't be bothered to get off their ass and improve.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 26/10/2021 12:32:49    2387421

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Replying To cuttothebone:  "If you're waiting for the perfect proposal it's never going to happen, you try things, discover what works what doesn't, evolve the structure continually for a couple of years if needs be, but don't paralyse the game because you're petrified of change.
Unfortunately looking at the age demographic of the change makers nothing will now happen until fresh progressive men/women are in place who have a best for all Ireland approach to this.
Possibly 10 yrs or more, will anyone be left watching by then though.."
Proposal B was rubbish and it only got traction because of the GPA and OTB.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 26/10/2021 12:35:34    2387423

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Replying To cuttothebone:  "If you're waiting for the perfect proposal it's never going to happen, you try things, discover what works what doesn't, evolve the structure continually for a couple of years if needs be, but don't paralyse the game because you're petrified of change.
Unfortunately looking at the age demographic of the change makers nothing will now happen until fresh progressive men/women are in place who have a best for all Ireland approach to this.
Possibly 10 yrs or more, will anyone be left watching by then though.."
Based upon the current structure, do you think it is feasible to devise a best for all ireland approach? I agree with you that the demograhic need to change but there seems to be a lot of vested interests. Players and supporters have been voting with their feet in the last decade at intercounty level. People are frustrated with the status quo and while proposal b had its drawbacks it was a start but it got defeated. How long will it be on the shelf for until the next vote?

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1445 - 26/10/2021 12:50:24    2387428

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Limited to 4 or 5 teams still doesn't give lower teams the right for a easy passage to the last 16. What then , a good beating on a bigger stage, while 2 Div 1 teams look on. Start paddling your own canoe."
The more you post the more clueless you show yourself to be. What teams want is more meaningful championship games against teams of their own level I.e proposal B. This easy option to an All Ireland nonsense your peddling is just a smokescreen to the fact your afraid to try something different, arguably the Ulster counties have showed a weak mentality in the last few weeks.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 26/10/2021 12:52:34    2387429

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Wexford are not entitled to be there by winning Div 4. Earn your place by winning Leinster or getting promoted to Div 2."
Also 1 of your delegates said on Saturday 'we can't have Division 4 teams against Division 1 teams'

This person might needed to be reminded this year we had...

Mayo v Sligo
Mayo v Leitrim
Armagh v Antrim
Dublin v Wexford

Talk about clutching at straws....

1 of the main reasons we've had a bad decade of championship football is the provincial championships becoming a wasteland yet apparently there sacrosanct.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 26/10/2021 12:58:02    2387431

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Proposal B was rubbish and it only got traction because of the GPA and OTB."
If its rubbish why did it get over 50% of the vote...

Status Quo is proven rubbish.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 26/10/2021 13:00:01    2387432

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Replying To wexico15:  "If its rubbish why did it get over 50% of the vote...

Status Quo is proven rubbish."
Couldn't care less. It's still rubbish.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 26/10/2021 13:08:05    2387433

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