National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


@ Whammo86 (Antrim) - 24/10/2021 16:26:04,
They had to offer the Tailteann Cup some carrot. The guarantee of a qualifier spot in the following year really was as much as they could offer.
There was a motion that would have guaranteed the Tailteann Cup 16 teams at the 2019 Special Congress. Counties went for the option that gave more counties the opportunity to qualify for the qualifiers. It's not ideal but it's the preference of those taking part.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 24/10/2021 18:16:46    2387177

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "Take it to the Dublin thread then."
The dub was talking about fairness which is funny seeing as they have every advantage in the game.

Changing the championship format which still allows dublin to have more home games than the rest isn't fair.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 24/10/2021 18:40:11    2387184

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "The provincials can still be playeed first in the McGuinness plan. And the second tier champions will be granted a place in senior quarter finals the next year so players will stick around. Why do you fit a group stage championship in? I know you prefer 2 groups of 8 but that is not on the table. Groups of 4 plus a knockout stage would be 6 games plus 7 league games and a final plus 4 provincial games for an Ulster team. That's potentially 18 games to be fit into a season of 23 weeks alongside hurling. It's not realistic."
There's 25 weeks from 30th January to next year's All Ireland final weekend of 17th July.

Proposal B had 18 potential games.

7 Provincials, 7 league phase, 4 All Knockout phase.

Feels like league finals might not be a thing going forward or they don't need to be played.

It's very feasible.

Tier 2 champions from previous year don't get a quarterfinal place the following season in either next year's format or in a Jim McGuinness plan.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 24/10/2021 19:17:56    2387196

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "@ Whammo86 (Antrim) - 24/10/2021 16:26:04,
They had to offer the Tailteann Cup some carrot. The guarantee of a qualifier spot in the following year really was as much as they could offer.
There was a motion that would have guaranteed the Tailteann Cup 16 teams at the 2019 Special Congress. Counties went for the option that gave more counties the opportunity to qualify for the qualifiers. It's not ideal but it's the preference of those taking part."
I just think that the top championship is rubbish.

There needs to be a better top tier to make it worth the effort of teams who aren't likely to win it to want to play in it.

If you're tiering the championship it just get be straight knockout.

It doesn't solve the huge problem of teams not playing enough fixtures in the top competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 24/10/2021 19:20:38    2387197

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "There's 25 weeks from 30th January to next year's All Ireland final weekend of 17th July.

Proposal B had 18 potential games.

7 Provincials, 7 league phase, 4 All Knockout phase.

Feels like league finals might not be a thing going forward or they don't need to be played.

It's very feasible.

Tier 2 champions from previous year don't get a quarterfinal place the following season in either next year's format or in a Jim McGuinness plan."
Season is limited to 23 weeks from next year. Tier 2 champions do get a place in the QFs in the Jim McGuinness plan. Look it up yourself. It's 4 provincial champions + Tier 2 champions + top 11 in the League which is 16 in total.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 24/10/2021 19:34:06    2387199

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I just think that the top championship is rubbish.

There needs to be a better top tier to make it worth the effort of teams who aren't likely to win it to want to play in it.

If you're tiering the championship it just get be straight knockout.

It doesn't solve the huge problem of teams not playing enough fixtures in the top competition."
Can't be straight knockout

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 24/10/2021 19:37:53    2387202

Link

Replying To bdbuddah:  "We have had the qualifier system in place in football since 2001. At the time the consensus was that they would be a stop gap measure before a more logical competition structure would be put in place shortly. Change to our current system didn't happen because at the end of the day the decision making process in the GAA is convoluted and flawed.
The championship structure we have for the last 20 years is a total mess, a mismatch of knockout/ and second chances where different teams would play vastly different no. of games to win the competition and a huge proportion of games are mis matches.
People saying that there is general agreement change is needed so a major revamp of the championship is inevitable are wide of the mark.
A proper overhaul will actually be very hard to achieve (especially if more than a simple majority continues to be needed in a Congress vote) because of a combination of (a) some interest groups in the GAA, who don't actually want any change that will harm their/ their counties self interest will hide behind 'flaws' they find in any major competition structure reforms put forward and (b) others, who broadly agree that a new group stage/ knock out stage is the blindly obvious way to go will never be able to agree on the exact system.
Rather than proper change a likely outcome to all this in the next few years is more tinkering around the edges of an already broken system."
Broadly agree. Can't see anything other than a tinkering here and there happening

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17818 - 24/10/2021 19:47:51    2387206

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "Season is limited to 23 weeks from next year. Tier 2 champions do get a place in the QFs in the Jim McGuinness plan. Look it up yourself. It's 4 provincial champions + Tier 2 champions + top 11 in the League which is 16 in total."
It was due to be 25 weeks under proposal B. The dates were mentioned in those OTB videos. The Provincials started in January.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 24/10/2021 20:11:06    2387209

Link

GPA want a another proposal before Congress. They should just put the Jim McGuinness proposal forward. It keeps the provincial link which will keep Ulster happy for now and still hold them at the start of the season.

That or change the seedings for the League. I think all Div 1 counties including relegated teams will have to be included for it to have any chance.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/10/2021 08:27:54    2387227

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I just think that the top championship is rubbish.

There needs to be a better top tier to make it worth the effort of teams who aren't likely to win it to want to play in it.

If you're tiering the championship it just get be straight knockout.

It doesn't solve the huge problem of teams not playing enough fixtures in the top competition."
1. Provincial finalists advance to Final 16.
2. Tier 2 winner from previous year advances to Final 16.
3. 14 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16. (If the Tier 2 winner from the previous year has reached their provincial final, 15 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16.)
4. The 8 losers from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in the Tier 2 Championship. Winner advances to Final 16 of the following year.
5. The 8 teams excluded from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in a Tier 3 Championship. Winner advances to the Final 16 qualifiers for of the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 25/10/2021 08:30:48    2387228

Link

For football, only 4 teams need to compete for All Ireland. Tyrone, Mayo, Dublin and Kerry. Other 28 ( 27 if Kilkenny can't field a team) can compete for a tier 2 competition. For hurling, award the All Ireland to Limerick for next 2 years and other teams can compete for second tier competition. Review it after the 2 years!

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 704 - 25/10/2021 10:21:32    2387240

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "1. Provincial finalists advance to Final 16.
2. Tier 2 winner from previous year advances to Final 16.
3. 14 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16. (If the Tier 2 winner from the previous year has reached their provincial final, 15 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16.)
4. The 8 losers from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in the Tier 2 Championship. Winner advances to Final 16 of the following year.
5. The 8 teams excluded from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in a Tier 3 Championship. Winner advances to the Final 16 qualifiers for of the following year."
Provincial champions qualifying is one thing. Losing finalists at the expense of better teams from the league I don't think is the right way to go.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 25/10/2021 10:42:01    2387242

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "1. Provincial finalists advance to Final 16.
2. Tier 2 winner from previous year advances to Final 16.
3. 14 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16. (If the Tier 2 winner from the previous year has reached their provincial final, 15 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year playoff for 7 places in the Final 16.)
4. The 8 losers from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in the Tier 2 Championship. Winner advances to Final 16 of the following year.
5. The 8 teams excluded from the Final 16 qualifiers compete in a Tier 3 Championship. Winner advances to the Final 16 qualifiers for of the following year."
Use the Jim McGuinness qualifying criteria but play 4 groups of 4 instead.

It can be played off in 24 weeks.

Teams guaranteed 11 fixtures, all meaningful.

All teams would have earned their right to be in the top tier.

It's a simple easily understood and fair format.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 25/10/2021 10:46:09    2387246

Link

Imagine someone who has never experienced the sport before and you explain to them you have four championships with a different number of teams in each(ranging from 6-11 teams depending on the province) and teams of completely different standard are mixed together and we have been doing this since the GAA was created in 1884. This nonsense needs to end and the provincial council's need to be called out on their blatant attempt to continue ruining the sport to maintain power.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1597 - 25/10/2021 10:51:26    2387248

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Use the Jim McGuinness qualifying criteria but play 4 groups of 4 instead.

It can be played off in 24 weeks.

Teams guaranteed 11 fixtures, all meaningful.

All teams would have earned their right to be in the top tier.

It's a simple easily understood and fair format."
That just sounds like an expanded Super 8s. Groups only work if you they are used in a separate tiered structure with promotion and relegation. I don't think players or the public will want a group stage after the League. The demand will be for knockout football at that point. Maybe a double elimination format at most.

I do think you are right about the TC winners though. No point sitting around for a year only to get one game. Keep the TC as in Proposal B and give the winners a trip to play NY who now have 2 games at home. Some players will still leave but I think a lot of counties would be happy to play if it got coverage.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 25/10/2021 11:44:16    2387265

Link

Replying To PK57:  "Imagine someone who has never experienced the sport before and you explain to them you have four championships with a different number of teams in each(ranging from 6-11 teams depending on the province) and teams of completely different standard are mixed together and we have been doing this since the GAA was created in 1884. This nonsense needs to end and the provincial council's need to be called out on their blatant attempt to continue ruining the sport to maintain power."
We're living in a world of people looking something for nothing, teams that are not good enough shouldn't be taking the place of lower Div 1 and 2 teams for the sake of playing against the big boys. Earn your right ithrough the qualifiers if your beat early on in championship.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1018 - 25/10/2021 12:10:21    2387272

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Provincial champions qualifying is one thing. Losing finalists at the expense of better teams from the league I don't think is the right way to go."
Agreed that provincial champions and league consistency is a fair shout for Final 16 qualification;
1. Provincial winners advance to Final 16.
2. Tier 2 winner from previous year advances to Final 16.
3. 11 teams based on league placing advance to the Final 16. (If the Tier 2 winner from the previous year wins their province, 12 teams based on league placing advance to the Final 16.)
4. The next 7 teams based on league placing and the Tier 3 winner from the previous year compete in the Tier 2 Championship. Winner advances to Final 16 of the following year. (If the Tier 3 winner happens to qualify for the Final 16, the next 8 teams based on league placing compete in the Tier 2 Championship.)
5. The remaining 8 teams based on league placing compete in a Tier 3 Championship. Winner advances to the Tier 2 Championship of the following year.

a. Final 16 in 4 groups of 4. Provincial winners placed in Pot 1 and given 2 home games. Pots 2, 3 and 4 based on league placing. Tier 2 winner also awarded 2 home games. 1 team from each of pots 2, 3 and 4 can be awarded 2 home games by luck of the draw. Top 2 to quarter-finals.
b. Tier 2 in 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
c. Tier 3 in 2 groups of 4. Top 2 to semi-finals.
d. Tier 2 and 3 finals played before All-Ireland semi-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 25/10/2021 12:42:35    2387278

Link

Replying To Saynothing:  "We're living in a world of people looking something for nothing, teams that are not good enough shouldn't be taking the place of lower Div 1 and 2 teams for the sake of playing against the big boys. Earn your right ithrough the qualifiers if your beat early on in championship."
I said in an earlier post that proposal B should never have been suggested In a way that punished higher division teams, but the point still stands that change is badly needed. Can you honestly say you think the current system makes sense? Louth were promoted along side Antrim from division 4 this year. Antrim then had to play a division 1 team in Armagh. Louth lost AET to Offaly, had we won, we would have played Kildare(promoted to division 1 this year). Sligo and Leitrim didn't reach the division 4 semi finals this year yet both had to take hammerings from Mayo. This system needs to be changed.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1597 - 25/10/2021 12:45:15    2387279

Link

There is a choice to be made and the elephant in the room is the provincial championships and the provincial councils. Until a decision is made to keep or get rid of the provincial then devising a structure is next to impossible. The problem with the provincial championship is that only one, namely Ulster is competitive. The vested interests at provincial council level will not step aside so the GAA needs to absolish these councils in order to move on if that is the choice here. There also needs to be a realistic debate on the weaker counties who to varying degrees are not in a position to compete against the bigger traditional well resourced counties. If assistance is not forthcoming to these counties then the gaps will just get wider regardless of structural changes. I can't understand why the GAA always go with the money and ignore the fact that every county wants to compete at a decent level.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1445 - 25/10/2021 13:16:58    2387286

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "That just sounds like an expanded Super 8s. Groups only work if you they are used in a separate tiered structure with promotion and relegation. I don't think players or the public will want a group stage after the League. The demand will be for knockout football at that point. Maybe a double elimination format at most.

I do think you are right about the TC winners though. No point sitting around for a year only to get one game. Keep the TC as in Proposal B and give the winners a trip to play NY who now have 2 games at home. Some players will still leave but I think a lot of counties would be happy to play if it got coverage."
Yeah if it's straight knockout, I just think everyone should just enter.

I do agree what I proposed above could be seen as an expanded super 8s. You'd just hope that with there being 2 championships in the same format starting at the same time that it'd feel like the start of a new competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 25/10/2021 13:19:40    2387288

Link