National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To dave1988:  "Wasn't passed this time but a big change is coming in the next couple of years. They will probably have to try keep the provincial competitions included in the all Ireland to keep everyone happy. I don't know how they will do that. I liked the look of plan b in lots of ways and changes could have been made to but apart from the Ulster championship football is dead until the all Ireland quarter finals."
We have had the qualifier system in place in football since 2001. At the time the consensus was that they would be a stop gap measure before a more logical competition structure would be put in place shortly. Change to our current system didn't happen because at the end of the day the decision making process in the GAA is convoluted and flawed.
The championship structure we have for the last 20 years is a total mess, a mismatch of knockout/ and second chances where different teams would play vastly different no. of games to win the competition and a huge proportion of games are mis matches.
People saying that there is general agreement change is needed so a major revamp of the championship is inevitable are wide of the mark.
A proper overhaul will actually be very hard to achieve (especially if more than a simple majority continues to be needed in a Congress vote) because of a combination of (a) some interest groups in the GAA, who don't actually want any change that will harm their/ their counties self interest will hide behind 'flaws' they find in any major competition structure reforms put forward and (b) others, who broadly agree that a new group stage/ knock out stage is the blindly obvious way to go will never be able to agree on the exact system.
Rather than proper change a likely outcome to all this in the next few years is more tinkering around the edges of an already broken system.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 24/10/2021 12:35:56    2387130

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Very sad option B wasn't carried. The game is broken, it's dispiriting, waining in draw for players and spectators, unfair and uneven.

It's far to easy for Dublin and Kerry to win All Ireland's, coming out of non competitive provinces the roll of honour indicative of that they are two perennially successful counties and the don't need the advantage or the leg up. It's far to easy for both to win All Ireland comparatively, it's not fair.

In Connacht, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon know they are a luck of a draw away in the provincial from being in the All Ireland series.

Was really disappointed to see the majority of these counties at worst feather there own nest and keep these advantageous pathways or at best had reservations on option b, I have my concerns though that decisions were made in self interest rather than progressing the game. Very disappointing.

Fermanagh made the best point of the day for me - they had a great one in Ulster I think it may have been 15/16 and played us in a quarter - their delegate spoke that's the ceiling for Fermanagh which is why they voted against it for their fans - that I can understand. I don't understand the rest if the Ulster teams voting to keep the Ulster championship, I get it's competitive, Leinster used to be the same, but I also remember Leinster being a huge depleting factor on us competing against other provinces that had easier pathways. Since Leinster has become a farce just look at what we've done in the game.

No option was perfect, but each could have been evolved.

Really hope the S8s come back now, we need more games with more diversity of teams playing each other.

The whole thing remains unbalanced and unfair. Bad day yesterday for the game."
Since the backdoor came in has it helped teams from the other 2 provinces? I think it has made it fairer, not perfect but fairer. Dublin don't forget are in the province with the most teams so it's unfair for them as well as Ulster. Because it's easier for Dublin it's not their fault.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 24/10/2021 12:53:53    2387134

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think anyone saying that yesterday proves that the provincials have to be a part of the All Ireland are being lazy in their analysis.

Over 50% of delegates voted for a deeply flawed proposal that completely separated the Provincials from the All Ireland.

I think there should be a slight link between the provincials and the All Ireland but I don't think that was the only dealbreaker in the vote.

A better proposal put to the table could easily have gotten 16 extra votes.

The current NFL of 4 divisions is just too exclusive to form the basis for the All Ireland.

I don't think the knockout All Ireland of Jim McGuinness is what the player's seem to want either.

There will be change soon and I do think it's important for buy in to the competition for it to be gotten as right as possible first time and be the format for the next 20/30+ years."
Next year's Qualifiers and Tailteann Cup already have a link between league status and making the provincial final or not. Is that the slight link that you are looking for?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6831 - 24/10/2021 13:08:16    2387135

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Replying To tipp11:  "Doesnt that say enough about the whole situation regarding the provincial championships? It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable."
Under proposal B the Provincial championships was scrapped. What we were going to have in February and March was a round robin provincial league which was the O'Byrne Cup, McKenna and FBD retained.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 2902 - 24/10/2021 13:11:53    2387136

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Replying To Greengrass:  "It didn't look too dead in Connacht when Roscommon won it twice in recent times."
Unbelievable that someone from Roscommon would post such a comment, is he suffering from short term memory loss?

Didn't look dead when Galway won their recent Connacht titles also, I was in attendance when they beat Mayo in the 2016 for the semi final, players carried shoulder high after the game and singing the fields of Athenry and it seems some think those type of scenes would be repeated during a spring time pre season competition?

As for yesterday decision at Congress the correct call was made, proposal B had too many flaws to succeed simple as that.

Yondu (UK) - Posts: 670 - 24/10/2021 13:22:26    2387137

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Replying To Ban:  "You are 100% correct that the system is incorrect. However, nobody proposing change to hurling in recent years started with a blank canvas. To evolve to something better, they had to make accommodations to ensure buy in. This is one!
Nobody in the hurling world gives out about it. Maybe because its so good that no one has noticed!"
Proposal B was a bad proposal though and it needs more than the minor tweaks that would put in. The only reason it got so much traction was due to the GPA and their friends at OTB who refused to discuss the downsides (other than the Kerry lad).

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 24/10/2021 13:24:50    2387138

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The provincial championships have always been linked to the All Ireland. Are you saying that the provincial championships have always been worthless?"
no, thats nothing like what I am saying

tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 24/10/2021 13:38:12    2387139

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Under proposal B the Provincial championships was scrapped. What we were going to have in February and March was a round robin provincial league which was the O'Byrne Cup, McKenna and FBD retained."
Oh right, I thought it was a case that they would have kept their kockout/tradional format and just link and time of year would be changed. I stand corrected here as I would be in favour of removing the link but would like to keep it as knockout competition

tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 24/10/2021 13:43:30    2387140

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Excuse my ignorance here. I don't know much about the GAA Congress procedures.

Are all Congress ballots held in secret? If not, why this one?

The vast majority of delegates voting in this ballot would have been doing so on decisions/instructions made at county level. Are they also secret?

The GAA, in the main, is an open and democratic organisation. Why have ballots held in secret? What is the reasoning behind it?"
The GAA is often termed as the most open & democratic sports organisation of all, many involved over the decades would find that laughable.

The CPA put forward a motion to Congress in 2018 on Transparency on all votes at Congress, it was heavily defeated by the Delegates & openly ridiculed by some. Why would the "most open & democratic sports organisation" vote against Transparency, what was there to hide you would ask ?

Yes, votes are by secret ballot & as the motion on Transparency was defeated in 2018 by the Delegates, you have no idea on how any of the Delegates voted or whether they voted as mandated. It certainly is far from transparent.

Some Delegates over the years don't vote as mandated by their Counties, some use their vote to help them climb the GAA ladder. Central Council delegates tend to vote as they please but generally follow the HQ line. Provincial Councils vote to protect their interests & as there are now many full time officials, administrators & coaches at Provincial level, they are worried that they will be out of a role in the new set up. Overseas units have had a huge role in the elections of Uachtaran's over the years.

The motions yesterday driven by the Uachtaran, Ard Stiurothoir, GPA & many in the media were very badly handled, especially considering that a working group was established & brought forward these proposals. Proposal A or Proposal B, A was a very flawed Proposal & always doomed to failure, you would have to question why time was spent on it all, especially given how heavily defeated it was. Proposal B was also flawed & surely any flaws it had should have been proofed prior to presentation to Congress. Bottom line was, the homework was not done.
What was laughable yesterday was how the most senior officials within the GAA view 50.6% as a huge mandate for change. Obviously the GPA are the main drivers of this & seem to think they can override all aspects of the Association to suit themselves. This is all about Finance, more Inter County games means more TV Rights money & with the GPA now getting a percentage of all commercial GAA Revenues, there is a lot to play for.

What yesterday highlighted is the vast divisions within the Association, GPA & Uachtaran & Ard Stiurothoir v Provincial Councils. The Inter County players, managers & GPA wielding the big stick demanding how things are run, the advent of pay for play & "officially" paid managers is now not far away. The demonisation of everything Ulster yesterday was shocking, if it's not their puke football, it their stubbornness to reject their well run provincial Championship. The power battle between units of power within the Association from the Overseas units, Central Council to the Provincial Councils is now very apparent. The fact that 98% of the membership don't even bother with the debate shows the apathy that exists as power is in the hands of a few.

In the midst of all this & totally forgotten about by the leadership, are the club players.
Not once in this debate were they mentioned, the forgotten people, 98% of the membership voiceless. Once again & probably over the next few years as well, they will have no idea when their season will start & will have to work around the Inter County set up again. More Inter County games means less time for club games, any wonder the drop out rate at club level from 18 onwards is huge. No doubt more empty rhetoric to pacify them, will ensue after this.

One leading & successful county yesterday refused to clarify how they voted on yesterday's motion, sadly we will never know due to the lack of transparency, that is some democracy.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 24/10/2021 14:28:24    2387145

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Replying To dave1988:  "Wasn't passed this time but a big change is coming in the next couple of years. They will probably have to try keep the provincial competitions included in the all Ireland to keep everyone happy. I don't know how they will do that. I liked the look of plan b in lots of ways and changes could have been made to but apart from the Ulster championship football is dead until the all Ireland quarter finals."
Disagree with this. Some good games in Leinster apart from v Dublin, and even this year they weren't as dominant, Wexford ran them close for a good 40 mins, Meath were within 3 going into injury time after 2 wrong penalty calls, and Jack O'Connor for reasons only known to himself wouldn't let Kildare play against Dublin, if they had they probably would have won.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 18256 - 24/10/2021 14:29:36    2387146

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Replying To PK57:  "As much as I wanted to see change, why was proposal B structured in such a poor way that it penalised the lower half of division 1 teams? Without much thought an easier change was possible. Why not propose that the championship be split into 2 tiers, in which your placing at the end of the league determines which championship you play in. This would remove the pointless provincial system and have teams playing at their level. The 2nd tier could even be structured like the Joe McDonagh cup in Hurling in which the winners have a route back into the championship."
This solution I agree with , the relegated 2 teams in division 2 play in tailteann the two promoted teams in div 3 go into sam. And if a division 3/4 team wins their province ie Cavan or tipp then they go in too.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 18256 - 24/10/2021 14:32:46    2387147

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Leave Dublin out of this. Leitrim and Longford were among the weakest counties even before Dublin were given funding by CC."
I wont leave dublin out of it, your man was on about things being unbalanced and not fair and I pointed out that the money that dublin gets is unfair.

Are you telling me that if Longford and Leitrim had that money they couldn't improve their teams with GDOs and full time coaches?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 24/10/2021 14:39:48    2387148

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Replying To moc.dna:  "The GAA is often termed as the most open & democratic sports organisation of all, many involved over the decades would find that laughable.

The CPA put forward a motion to Congress in 2018 on Transparency on all votes at Congress, it was heavily defeated by the Delegates & openly ridiculed by some. Why would the "most open & democratic sports organisation" vote against Transparency, what was there to hide you would ask ?

Yes, votes are by secret ballot & as the motion on Transparency was defeated in 2018 by the Delegates, you have no idea on how any of the Delegates voted or whether they voted as mandated. It certainly is far from transparent.

Some Delegates over the years don't vote as mandated by their Counties, some use their vote to help them climb the GAA ladder. Central Council delegates tend to vote as they please but generally follow the HQ line. Provincial Councils vote to protect their interests & as there are now many full time officials, administrators & coaches at Provincial level, they are worried that they will be out of a role in the new set up. Overseas units have had a huge role in the elections of Uachtaran's over the years.

The motions yesterday driven by the Uachtaran, Ard Stiurothoir, GPA & many in the media were very badly handled, especially considering that a working group was established & brought forward these proposals. Proposal A or Proposal B, A was a very flawed Proposal & always doomed to failure, you would have to question why time was spent on it all, especially given how heavily defeated it was. Proposal B was also flawed & surely any flaws it had should have been proofed prior to presentation to Congress. Bottom line was, the homework was not done.
What was laughable yesterday was how the most senior officials within the GAA view 50.6% as a huge mandate for change. Obviously the GPA are the main drivers of this & seem to think they can override all aspects of the Association to suit themselves. This is all about Finance, more Inter County games means more TV Rights money & with the GPA now getting a percentage of all commercial GAA Revenues, there is a lot to play for.

What yesterday highlighted is the vast divisions within the Association, GPA & Uachtaran & Ard Stiurothoir v Provincial Councils. The Inter County players, managers & GPA wielding the big stick demanding how things are run, the advent of pay for play & "officially" paid managers is now not far away. The demonisation of everything Ulster yesterday was shocking, if it's not their puke football, it their stubbornness to reject their well run provincial Championship. The power battle between units of power within the Association from the Overseas units, Central Council to the Provincial Councils is now very apparent. The fact that 98% of the membership don't even bother with the debate shows the apathy that exists as power is in the hands of a few.

In the midst of all this & totally forgotten about by the leadership, are the club players.
Not once in this debate were they mentioned, the forgotten people, 98% of the membership voiceless. Once again & probably over the next few years as well, they will have no idea when their season will start & will have to work around the Inter County set up again. More Inter County games means less time for club games, any wonder the drop out rate at club level from 18 onwards is huge. No doubt more empty rhetoric to pacify them, will ensue after this.

One leading & successful county yesterday refused to clarify how they voted on yesterday's motion, sadly we will never know due to the lack of transparency, that is some democracy."
You do realise the split season is coming in next year. August onwards will be exclusive to clubs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 24/10/2021 14:52:47    2387151

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I wont leave dublin out of it, your man was on about things being unbalanced and not fair and I pointed out that the money that dublin gets is unfair.

Are you telling me that if Longford and Leitrim had that money they couldn't improve their teams with GDOs and full time coaches?"
Take it to the Dublin thread then.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 24/10/2021 15:16:12    2387154

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Since the backdoor came in has it helped teams from the other 2 provinces? I think it has made it fairer, not perfect but fairer. Dublin don't forget are in the province with the most teams so it's unfair for them as well as Ulster. Because it's easier for Dublin it's not their fault."
How important are the provincials for the majority of teams in Leinster, Connacht and Munster. I'd say not very you have a group of teams outside, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Roscommon, Mayo who know before the season starts they are on a hiding to nothing taking part. The teams I mention particularly Dublin and Kerry are going through a preseason getting ready for an All Ireland series, with the safety net of a back door.

It's silly to keep to going when you look at how many Provincials the team I mention have and it's wrong that Dublin and Kerry have so many All Ireland's they are enabled by no challenge in their provisions. To be fair Leinster was competitive up to the teens, but it's a dirge now.

If we look at recent years, the S8s and more diversity the provinces in match ups away from the old provincial system has blocked some of the historical pathway, Galway, Mayo, Tyrone have all taken out Kerry, Donegal, and Monaghan were equally competitive. We need more diversity between the provinces, the weighting between them is scandalous, thus the All Ireland in unfair. I'd throw Dublin in there to, while we need to be taken out of Croke Park more to, it's our home ground no point saying otherwise.

I don't think the qualifiers or the S8s go far enough personally. I don't think the best team in the country win the All Ireland every year, due to the system. I don't think everyone starts the season equally or face the same level of challenge or competitiveness and that's not sport ultimately.

Most importantly, after all the grandstanding and lofty comments the GAA is about participation, development and expressing yourself through Gaelic games, it's wrong lads could be preparing from Jan, play one or two games and are gone again at inter county for six months - we just can't allow that to continue, they don't develop, they don't improve they can't hone their skills at that level, it's anti everything the GAA should be in philosophy and spirit.

Yesterday was a race to the bottom and it was so dispiriting to see others looking after their own interests rather than safeguarding the game. What did we achieve, another 6 weeks of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry steamroll Div 3/4 teams next summer - Yawn.

Every county should crave competition to drive improvement, not hide in the long grass, I don't know what way Dublin voted but I'd chew our county boar€ out of it, if I knew they voted for the stays quo.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4273 - 24/10/2021 16:01:52    2387159

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Some joke yesterday with Fermanagh delegate speaking about possible damage to ulster championship..can I ask when did the last win it?have they a chance in 2022?i mentioned in an earlier post that some counties seem to be very worried that a lesser county might make a breakthrough..

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 1740 - 24/10/2021 16:18:14    2387160

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Next year's Qualifiers and Tailteann Cup already have a link between league status and making the provincial final or not. Is that the slight link that you are looking for?"
I think it's a weaker system than the Jim McGuinness proposal.

There's the potential for wildly varying numbers of teams in the competition which is just weird.

It's unlikely to ever be as high as this but it is possible for there to be 26 teams in that championship and then 7 (including NY) in the Tailteann cup.

Both the Jim McGuinness and this have other problems.

Unless the league and provincials are scheduled alongside one another then teams can be waiting around for a number of weeks if they get knocked out early as the All Ireland knockout competitions can't commence until the provincial finalists are determined. That's an even bigger problem in the Jim McGuinness solution as they can't commence until the provincial champions are determined.

Really one of the first things that have to happen is that either the league gets played in parallel with the provincials or the provincials need to be played first.

There are other flaws though in both this and the Jim McGuinness.

Is the second tier competition worth sticking around for?

I'm not sure that it is, I'm not sure that it's an improvement on the qualifiers for instance.

The qualifiers were a seeded All Ireland knockout championship. Teams were 4 rounds away from the last 8 of that season's All Ireland and lower division teams did make it to that round. Interest in the qualifiers paled compared to the provincials even though that prize of a quarterfinal place was at stake.

Why is the Tailteann cup in next year's system or in a Jim McGuinness style system more important than the qualifiers.

The prize for winning 4 rounds of the Tailteann cup is a place in the qualifiers (round 1 of 3 or maybe even 4) for the following season. Why is that a competition that's going to excite teams?

It's a bit better in the Jim McGuinness proposal as you're in the past 16 round with all the big boys back in the mix, it's going to have more prestige than a qualifiers round 3. Still though if teams are seeded the Tailteann cup winner is going to be going to be pitted against the top team in the league.

The prize for winning tier 2 is waiting a year for a trouncing in the next season's championship. It's one of the better proposals to bubble up to acceptance but it's still bad.

The championship needs to go group stage and tiered. They need to be competitions where teams get a number of meaningful games and the competition is worth winning your way up to.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 24/10/2021 16:26:04    2387161

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it's a weaker system than the Jim McGuinness proposal.

There's the potential for wildly varying numbers of teams in the competition which is just weird.

It's unlikely to ever be as high as this but it is possible for there to be 26 teams in that championship and then 7 (including NY) in the Tailteann cup.

Both the Jim McGuinness and this have other problems.

Unless the league and provincials are scheduled alongside one another then teams can be waiting around for a number of weeks if they get knocked out early as the All Ireland knockout competitions can't commence until the provincial finalists are determined. That's an even bigger problem in the Jim McGuinness solution as they can't commence until the provincial champions are determined.

Really one of the first things that have to happen is that either the league gets played in parallel with the provincials or the provincials need to be played first.

There are other flaws though in both this and the Jim McGuinness.

Is the second tier competition worth sticking around for?

I'm not sure that it is, I'm not sure that it's an improvement on the qualifiers for instance.

The qualifiers were a seeded All Ireland knockout championship. Teams were 4 rounds away from the last 8 of that season's All Ireland and lower division teams did make it to that round. Interest in the qualifiers paled compared to the provincials even though that prize of a quarterfinal place was at stake.

Why is the Tailteann cup in next year's system or in a Jim McGuinness style system more important than the qualifiers.

The prize for winning 4 rounds of the Tailteann cup is a place in the qualifiers (round 1 of 3 or maybe even 4) for the following season. Why is that a competition that's going to excite teams?

It's a bit better in the Jim McGuinness proposal as you're in the past 16 round with all the big boys back in the mix, it's going to have more prestige than a qualifiers round 3. Still though if teams are seeded the Tailteann cup winner is going to be going to be pitted against the top team in the league.

The prize for winning tier 2 is waiting a year for a trouncing in the next season's championship. It's one of the better proposals to bubble up to acceptance but it's still bad.

The championship needs to go group stage and tiered. They need to be competitions where teams get a number of meaningful games and the competition is worth winning your way up to."
The provincials can still be playeed first in the McGuinness plan. And the second tier champions will be granted a place in senior quarter finals the next year so players will stick around. Why do you fit a group stage championship in? I know you prefer 2 groups of 8 but that is not on the table. Groups of 4 plus a knockout stage would be 6 games plus 7 league games and a final plus 4 provincial games for an Ulster team. That's potentially 18 games to be fit into a season of 23 weeks alongside hurling. It's not realistic.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 24/10/2021 16:40:50    2387162

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Since it actually got a majority of votes I'd like to see option B tweaked and brought back in February...

4 preliminary quarter final spots go to the provincial winners.

6 quarter final spots come from the league. Merge division 1 and 2 into 2 groups of 8. Top 3 from each of 1A of 1B go straight into the quarter finals.

If any of the provincial winners are already in the 6 quarter final spots then their preliminary quarter final places go on league position starting with the 4th in 1A/1B.

So every team still has a chance of getting into the quarter finals, there is a place for provincial winners and the league stage still guarantees the most competitive matches.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 752 - 24/10/2021 16:41:42    2387163

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Replying To TheUsername:  "How important are the provincials for the majority of teams in Leinster, Connacht and Munster. I'd say not very you have a group of teams outside, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Roscommon, Mayo who know before the season starts they are on a hiding to nothing taking part. The teams I mention particularly Dublin and Kerry are going through a preseason getting ready for an All Ireland series, with the safety net of a back door.

It's silly to keep to going when you look at how many Provincials the team I mention have and it's wrong that Dublin and Kerry have so many All Ireland's they are enabled by no challenge in their provisions. To be fair Leinster was competitive up to the teens, but it's a dirge now.

If we look at recent years, the S8s and more diversity the provinces in match ups away from the old provincial system has blocked some of the historical pathway, Galway, Mayo, Tyrone have all taken out Kerry, Donegal, and Monaghan were equally competitive. We need more diversity between the provinces, the weighting between them is scandalous, thus the All Ireland in unfair. I'd throw Dublin in there to, while we need to be taken out of Croke Park more to, it's our home ground no point saying otherwise.

I don't think the qualifiers or the S8s go far enough personally. I don't think the best team in the country win the All Ireland every year, due to the system. I don't think everyone starts the season equally or face the same level of challenge or competitiveness and that's not sport ultimately.

Most importantly, after all the grandstanding and lofty comments the GAA is about participation, development and expressing yourself through Gaelic games, it's wrong lads could be preparing from Jan, play one or two games and are gone again at inter county for six months - we just can't allow that to continue, they don't develop, they don't improve they can't hone their skills at that level, it's anti everything the GAA should be in philosophy and spirit.

Yesterday was a race to the bottom and it was so dispiriting to see others looking after their own interests rather than safeguarding the game. What did we achieve, another 6 weeks of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry steamroll Div 3/4 teams next summer - Yawn.

Every county should crave competition to drive improvement, not hide in the long grass, I don't know what way Dublin voted but I'd chew our county boar€ out of it, if I knew they voted for the stays quo."
I think there is a scattering of Div2 teams in Leinster as well not just 3 and 4, so it's them who need to get their finger out. Why hold back bottom 2 in Div1 for the sake of others. Not perfect but fairer as I say.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1269 - 24/10/2021 17:32:31    2387172

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