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Replying To wexico15: "The more you post the more clueless you show yourself to be. What teams want is more meaningful championship games against teams of their own level I.e proposal B. This easy option to an All Ireland nonsense your peddling is just a smokescreen to the fact your afraid to try something different, arguably the Ulster counties have showed a weak mentality in the last few weeks." The first line only applies to you. Wexford folks should be barred from making a comment on football.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 26/10/2021 13:08:46
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Replying To ponger: "Listening to these debates over the past few years i'm now more convinced than ever we are not even sure what problem we are trying to solve. The allireland competition in its current format has existed for over a 100 years. In those years many a heavy beating has been handed out and this will continue to happen no matter what structure you implement. But more importantly is that so called weaker teams have had days in the sun with Cavan, Tipperary, louth & Wexford to name a few.
We changed our structure a few years ago and introduced the famous super 8's and this had its own issues with dead rubbers and mismatches. What made it worse is that the bigger team could even afford a few bad days at the office and still win an Ireland.
To me, the issue is not with the structure of the competition, its with the structure of the individual counties. By this i mean the capability of any county to produce a panel of 30 that are competitive and capable to take part in competitions. Addressing the competition structure is not addressing the root causes within these counties.
So, lets address structure within the counties, funding, games development etc because thats where the real beatings and hammering are taking place.
If you have a pain in your wrist , you don't keep trying different painkillers until the pain goes away. You have to look deeper for the real problem." Yes spot on although sometimes there are so many unidentifiable problems that painkillers are the only option left in order to make the best of a bad situation.
It's hard to believe that just 12 years ago Kerry won an All Ireland having come through tough, hard-hitting championship qualifiers against Sligo, Longford and Antrim. What has happened in those 12 years? Understanding that question would be a good start to solving the real issues. Back in 2009 the argument was that teams shouldn't be given a second chance. Now it seems we want leagues, leagues and more leagues
97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 320 - 26/10/2021 14:05:18
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Proposal B was rubbish and it only got traction because of the GPA and OTB." That would be the GPA that represent the most important element of this whole debate.. only in your opinion proposal B was rubbish, you or anyone else doesn't know for sure either way because a minority are scared of change, thankfully the majority of gaa folk are intelligent and visionary enough to know its the alternative that is destroying the game.
You too, I suspect, will wake up eventually.
cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 163 - 26/10/2021 14:09:14
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https://hoganstand.com/Forum/FindPost?MessageID=2387332
True, cap spending for all intercounty teams from development squads/U17 through to senior so all counties are on a level playing field (outside of development funding to schools/clubs which can be a separate pot based on populations). Until this happens, the rich will get stronger and everyone else gets left behind.
fantasybrown (Roscommon) - Posts: 26 - 26/10/2021 14:21:39
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Replying To 97Cavans: "Yes spot on although sometimes there are so many unidentifiable problems that painkillers are the only option left in order to make the best of a bad situation.
It's hard to believe that just 12 years ago Kerry won an All Ireland having come through tough, hard-hitting championship qualifiers against Sligo, Longford and Antrim. What has happened in those 12 years? Understanding that question would be a good start to solving the real issues. Back in 2009 the argument was that teams shouldn't be given a second chance. Now it seems we want leagues, leagues and more leagues" Could it be that the best teams playing the best teams has over time lead to the best teams getting better than everyone else and ending up with a core group of 4/5 counties that are competitive between themselves but not so much outside of that?
This started happening when the league split into Division 1, 2, 3 & 4 rather than the previous 1A and 1B structure. Maybe reverting to the 1A and 1B structure would remove some of this advantage at the top end?
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 26/10/2021 14:33:48
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Replying To Rolo2010: "The first line only applies to you. Wexford folks should be barred from making a comment on football." With all due respect, that is a ridiculous comment. Wexford have as much of a footballing pedigree as Donegal, even if it is slim. The irony being Donegal might thrive in Proposal B seeing as they have struggled to get out of Ulster lately.
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1417 - 26/10/2021 14:47:52
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Replying To beano: "With all due respect, that is a ridiculous comment. Wexford have as much of a footballing pedigree as Donegal, even if it is slim. The irony being Donegal might thrive in Proposal B seeing as they have struggled to get out of Ulster lately." Its called a childish comment from a childish individual.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 26/10/2021 15:19:56
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Replying To beano: "With all due respect, that is a ridiculous comment. Wexford have as much of a footballing pedigree as Donegal, even if it is slim. The irony being Donegal might thrive in Proposal B seeing as they have struggled to get out of Ulster lately." No, you don't.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 26/10/2021 16:00:44
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Replying To cuttothebone: "That would be the GPA that represent the most important element of this whole debate.. only in your opinion proposal B was rubbish, you or anyone else doesn't know for sure either way because a minority are scared of change, thankfully the majority of gaa folk are intelligent and visionary enough to know its the alternative that is destroying the game.
You too, I suspect, will wake up eventually." Read my previous comments on here. I'm all for change but B was still rubbish and it deserved to fail. The GPA should do the right thing and fold like the CPA.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 26/10/2021 16:03:22
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Replying To wexico15: "The more you post the more clueless you show yourself to be. What teams want is more meaningful championship games against teams of their own level I.e proposal B. This easy option to an All Ireland nonsense your peddling is just a smokescreen to the fact your afraid to try something different, arguably the Ulster counties have showed a weak mentality in the last few weeks." Maybe a weak mentality in Ulster but not weak teams. Something must be working, I don't mind something different but not a the expense of stronger teams. Letting top Div 3 and 4 teams in when lower Div1 and 2 teams don't qualify is silly. Would ye try lower Div 1 and 2 against top Div 3and 4?
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2013 - 26/10/2021 16:12:51
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Replying To brianb: "Could it be that the best teams playing the best teams has over time lead to the best teams getting better than everyone else and ending up with a core group of 4/5 counties that are competitive between themselves but not so much outside of that?
This started happening when the league split into Division 1, 2, 3 & 4 rather than the previous 1A and 1B structure. Maybe reverting to the 1A and 1B structure would remove some of this advantage at the top end?" Every change that's been made to date has resulted in where we are now - a handful and I am being generous when i say a handful competing for honours. They couldn't even get eight teams to make the super 8 league viable. Sponsorship, professional backroom teams, funding and a changing demographics have all gone unchecked. There needs to be some serious thinking done before they have Kerry playing Tyrone or Dublin or Mayo on loop or maybe this is what the delegates want.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 26/10/2021 16:27:24
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Couldn't care less. It's still rubbish." Childish comment. Childish individual.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 26/10/2021 16:32:43
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Has anybody put forward any solid, logical reasons why Jim McGuinness' proposals weren't considered?
I think they're worth taking seriously: https://www.otbsports.com/football/jim-mcguinness-championship-plan-1116997
Instead, we waste time voting on "Proposal B", which to me just looks like a flawed version of cGuinness' superior proposal.
Is it just because there are enough blazers, desk jockey and blinkered egos that they won't accept a good idea if it comes from a non-conformist like McGuinness?
And while we're at it, could we please stop talking about full backs, half backs, midfields, half forward and full forwards. Those positions have existed only on paper for decades. As Paddy Heaney (Seamus' nephew) noted a few years ago, there no longer are 15 positions on GAA team, just 7:
1. Man-marker
2. Channel blocker
3. Line breaker
4. Midfield anchor
5. Midfield linkman
6. Shooter
7. Point of attack
See: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/paddy-heaney/new-position-needed-on-line-ups-333297.html
The problem with all of the above is that both those ideas have been thought up by Ulstermen, which presumably means they won't ever see the light of day - an "Ulster saves Gaelic football" narrative would be hard for traditionalists to swallow lol
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 26/10/2021 16:33:00
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Replying To Rolo2010: "No, you don't." Actually, yeah your right. We have more of a football pedigree considering it is firmly the poor relation to hurling, something ye'd be alien to.
For the record, I think Proposal B had its merits but there were too many flaws to iron out. They need to re-jig one or two things before it gets in.
beano (Wexford) - Posts: 1417 - 26/10/2021 16:35:58
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Replying To wicklowsupport: "Every change that's been made to date has resulted in where we are now - a handful and I am being generous when i say a handful competing for honours. They couldn't even get eight teams to make the super 8 league viable. Sponsorship, professional backroom teams, funding and a changing demographics have all gone unchecked. There needs to be some serious thinking done before they have Kerry playing Tyrone or Dublin or Mayo on loop or maybe this is what the delegates want." Wicklow could get off their behinds and try and entice some of their large population to play and support gaelic games.
Over twice the population of Counties like Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Laois, Offaly Westmeath yet ye seldom have a team capable of beating them.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1417 - 26/10/2021 16:53:46
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Wicklowsupport I'm in agreement with you..you have named 4 teams,is there another 4 who can seriously challange them?i know counties like cork,Galway and Monaghan would like to think they can but I honestly can't see it..as I mentioned in an earlier post Fermanagh voted against it because of ulster championship,can they seriously win ulster,no..outside of Dublin who can challange for a leinster title?tipp won munster last year,will that happen again in next 3 or 4 years?i can't see why some counties dread change..I would still like to know did all counties vote as mandated but of course the ordinary joe will never find out..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2214 - 26/10/2021 16:54:20
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Replying To ponger: "Listening to these debates over the past few years i'm now more convinced than ever we are not even sure what problem we are trying to solve. The allireland competition in its current format has existed for over a 100 years. In those years many a heavy beating has been handed out and this will continue to happen no matter what structure you implement. But more importantly is that so called weaker teams have had days in the sun with Cavan, Tipperary, louth & Wexford to name a few.
We changed our structure a few years ago and introduced the famous super 8's and this had its own issues with dead rubbers and mismatches. What made it worse is that the bigger team could even afford a few bad days at the office and still win an Ireland.
To me, the issue is not with the structure of the competition, its with the structure of the individual counties. By this i mean the capability of any county to produce a panel of 30 that are competitive and capable to take part in competitions. Addressing the competition structure is not addressing the root causes within these counties.
So, lets address structure within the counties, funding, games development etc because thats where the real beatings and hammering are taking place.
If you have a pain in your wrist , you don't keep trying different painkillers until the pain goes away. You have to look deeper for the real problem." Agree, the current All Ireland champions have three other teams from their province playing Division 1 and that is before we mention Cavan who won an Ulster title less than a year ago. There has been talk about Ulster rejecting proposal B, of course they were going to reject it as their flagship competition would be destroyed and there is obviously some good work going on in that province which they wanted to protect.
There is an opportunity for Leinster counties to get themselves sorted which may make their Provincial championship at least half as good as it has traditionally been.
It is clear no change will get voted through that relegates Provincial championships to secondary competitions.
My idea would be play the leagues as normal, then play the Provinical championships as normal and have three qualifying rounds for beaten teams, each round being seeded depending on finishing league positions with top of Div 1 being number 1 and bottom of Div 4 being 32nd etc.
The 8 Provincial finalists are seeded by winners/losers into four groups of three with the four teams coming through the qualifies with a home and away game in a super 12 leading to top 2 in each group going through to knock out QF's.
Div 3 and Div 4 who don't make it to round 2 of the qualifiers going into the secondary competition.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 26/10/2021 17:52:25
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Lots of very differnt opinions here on Proposal B's failure and future proposals for change.
For any if the teams ive coached, some strong some weak, I always reinforce that any sport is great if teams compete against teams on a similar level.
Change is needed but Proposal B, while offering more games was likely to pit Top Div 3 & 4 sides against teams from div 1 & 2 operating at a higher level with bad beatings rather than the odd upset.
Not sure what way the Proposal dealt with teams finishing 6, 7 & 8 in division 1 & teams finishing lower in div 2, yes they miss out on competing for Sam Maguire but are they entered into the B competition Cup for that year (can come one clarify) If they where going to be competing in that competition
1. More miss matches
2. Players from the relegated or lower ranked Div 1 & 2 teams not commiting to play in the 'B' all Ireland.
3. Teams are in whatever league they are in for a reason, just like club football it takes time to build a team ready to compete at a higher level. Div 3 & 4 teams should not be parachuted into the Senior Sam Maguire competition just because they win their league, They fear the B competition as it appears to weake a countys status as they won't be competing for Sam but in reality this competition is there current level , one they CAN compete in , one over a few seasons they can develop in and one that provides them with the extra games they seek at peak time of the season.
IrelandUnited (Tyrone) - Posts: 77 - 26/10/2021 20:04:09
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Replying To Rolo2010: "You talk about wanting fairness but are okay with a system which punishes teams for being in Div 1. You last comment is funny. What do Wexford know about football. Only had a decent team because your hurlers were too afraid to face KK. Get back to me when a Wexford club wins their provincial title. The McGuinness plan is far better than Proposal B but no let's give a Div 4 side an easier route because they can't be bothered to get off their ass and improve." Thrilled with your various comments today, you've shown your true colours, your childish mentality and how you can't be taken seriously. I'd advise you to take a break from posting here as its impossible to take you seriously following these views. Your just an irrelevance from now on.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 26/10/2021 20:04:58
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Replying To wexico15: "Also 1 of your delegates said on Saturday 'we can't have Division 4 teams against Division 1 teams'
This person might needed to be reminded this year we had...
Mayo v Sligo
Mayo v Leitrim
Armagh v Antrim
Dublin v Wexford
Talk about clutching at straws....
1 of the main reasons we've had a bad decade of championship football is the provincial championships becoming a wasteland yet apparently there sacrosanct." Rolo2010 see you conveniently not replied to this...
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 26/10/2021 20:06:28
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