National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Look I hear you.

I guess the big thing though is right now the big incentive in the league is to get to division 1 and play the best teams to be readied for championship.

The dynamic changes in this format and maybe being in division 1 is less important.

A team coming from division 2 is at a small disadvantage to a team coming top 3 from division 1 once they hit the quarters. Otherwise 4th and 5th in division 1 will need to play 3 division 1 teams to win.

Say Mayo are in division 1 and Donegal are in division 2 are Mayo actually that much better off, I don't know.

Maybe they benefit from 7 harder fixtures, maybe it'd be bad to stay in division 2 for a prolonged period but 1 year out just doesn't really seem to me to be that big of a stress and it's why I'm worried that some of the edge is lost.

The dynamic that existed in the leagues up until now where league status is of huge importance feels diminished to me and I don't think I'm being irrational about it."
You most certainly are not being irrational Whammo. The leagues as we know them are being binned. We won't have separate league and championship competitions any more. Yet hurling has retained separate league and championship competitions . Both the provincial championships will be hugely downgraded to the point of obliteration.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5691 - 21/10/2021 13:30:22    2386632

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Replying To moc.dna:  "The fact that the Ard Stiurothoir & Uachtaran have come out canvassing for a particular motion before the motion even reaches the floor of Congress beggars belief. As the two highest office holders within the Association they really should be seen as administrators for all, not just whatever section piques their interest & should have withheld their views.

Both proposals are flawed & not enough consultation or possible pitfalls have been discussed & yet again another radical change is being brought in without precise clarity. It's amazing how club players are forgotten about in all of this, the disrespect for club players who will have their season altered yet again, revolving around Inter County with even more Inter County games added to the calendar.
GAA & GPA singing from the same hymn sheet as it is another step towards semi pro / pro set up & additional TV Rights money for both.

Ironically Provincial Councils who have a lot of full time personnel & hold a lot of sway in Congress, will not want to see their power diluted. The motion may struggle to get the 60% majority if Provincial Councils go against it.

Another old chestnut that will surface & was one of the most negative acts ever carried out at Congress, will come into play, the Transparency factor. The fact that no one will know who voted what way & Delegates won't be answerable to their Counties & Clubs, as they will have no idea how they voted as the Delegates at Congress voted down & castigated a proposal on Transparency in 2018. If that motion was passed we would all be able to see the results & know how all Delegates voted & did they vote as instructed by their Counties. The Transparency factor will come back to haunt both sides at Congress.

One thing the whole thing has highlighted is how fractured the Association is at various levels. It also highlights how money has become one the main components & it seems to dictate the direction of the Association."
Couldn't agree more on the transparency point, no matter what way people vote they should be held accountable, flies in the face of democracy.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 21/10/2021 13:36:04    2386636

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It's a whole other story and a whole other debate for another time and place, but interesting to see from that voting breakdown that Australia/New Zealand, for example, has more voting powers than 14 of the counties that things will actually affect (well, 13 really, if you leave out Kilkenny).

Or if you leave London and New York out of it on the grounds that they'll still be involved somehow, there's a total of 30 votes for units with no involvement in the championship at all. That's more than twice as many as Connacht, still significantly more than either Ulster or Munster, and almost as many as Leinster.

Whether or not proposal B achieves 60% or not could actually come down to whatever a few people decide somewhere like Dubai or Sydney.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 756 - 21/10/2021 13:47:07    2386640

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If option B is passed it can be tweaked apparently.

So here's a tweak that removes the disincentive to lower division 1 teams and keeps everything else...

Join Division 1 and 2 into a new top division of 16 teams. Split that into 1A and 1B at random with 8 teams in each. The top 6 from 1A and 1B reach the quarter finals direct and the next 2 go into the preliminary quarter finals against the winners of division 3 and 4.

Simple, solves the 6th in division 1 problem, and doesn't need any more matches.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 748 - 21/10/2021 13:57:22    2386641

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Hard 2 believe that Galway chairman can go against the wishes of players and management who have stated they in favour of motion B,, no word from him last 2 years when football was a straight knockout which was not right , I guarantee if it was a motion to give more games to the hurlers he be in favour ,, time for football people to look after football,,

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 550 - 21/10/2021 14:13:12    2386647

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Replying To tyroneed:  "If option B is passed it can be tweaked apparently.

So here's a tweak that removes the disincentive to lower division 1 teams and keeps everything else...

Join Division 1 and 2 into a new top division of 16 teams. Split that into 1A and 1B at random with 8 teams in each. The top 6 from 1A and 1B reach the quarter finals direct and the next 2 go into the preliminary quarter finals against the winners of division 3 and 4.

Simple, solves the 6th in division 1 problem, and doesn't need any more matches."
Is there a Division 1 final in your scenario as a single Division 1 provides a winner without the need for a final?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6322 - 21/10/2021 14:25:38    2386651

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Replying To edu:  "Under the current Proposal B for some middle of the road teams being in Div. 2 will actually give them a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland [A.I
. A team like Roscommon would be an example. For the last few seasons they have been a yo yo team between Div, 1 and Div. 2-too good for Div. 2 but not good enough for Div. 1. So actually finishing 3nd in Div.2 would be an idea place to be in- qualify for AI this year while also have good chance of qualifying the following year.
The following farcical situations could arise- scenario[a]going into the last round of games in Div. 2 a team is guaranteed to finish at least in 3nd place and qualify for AI while a win would put them in the top 2 and also a place in AI and promotion to Div. 1 but make it more difficult to qualify for following years AI . What would they do?
Scenario - going into the last round of games in Div. 1 a team knows that a win would secure 6th place and safety [ but outside the top 5 that qualify for AI while a loss would mean relegation to Div. 2 and know they have an enhanced chance of qualifying for AI the following year. What would they do? I am sure that in each scenario the particular teams would strive to win their respective games but the truth is that temptation should not be there in the first place as it questions the integrity of the whole structure/competition.
This is a major flaw for Proposal B. Another is 5 out of the 10 teams [50%] qualifying for the AI are of a lower ranking than 3 of the Div. 1 teams that are missing out and 2 out 10 [20%] are ranked 17th[Div. 3 winner and 25th[ Div. 4 winner]
On page 24 of forum I detailed the Enhanced Proposal B. While not perfect as it also includes 2 lower ranking teams -[ joint 17th]- the winners of Div, 2 North and the winners of Div. 2 South qualifying for AI. This was done as the principal of Proposal B is to have all teams involved in AI. The ideal and most logical option and my preferred option would be to have a tiered championship with two or preferably three tiers with promotion and relegation between the tiers. There would then be 3 All Ireland titles to be played for like there is in the ladies competitions. Unfortunately I can not see this happening anytime soon."]Spot on, I have been on about this, a lot of teams in Div 2 will be going out last day looking how other matches are going so they can finish 3rd. Total mess. A team in Div 2 can finish 3rd for years, qualify for All Ireland whereas bottom teams in Div1 don't qualify yet Div 3 and 4 teams do. Who's running these proposals? Stormount. Forget the whole thing. Bring back the qualifiers, every team gets their second chance.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 988 - 21/10/2021 14:30:59    2386652

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Replying To tyroneed:  "If option B is passed it can be tweaked apparently.

So here's a tweak that removes the disincentive to lower division 1 teams and keeps everything else...

Join Division 1 and 2 into a new top division of 16 teams. Split that into 1A and 1B at random with 8 teams in each. The top 6 from 1A and 1B reach the quarter finals direct and the next 2 go into the preliminary quarter finals against the winners of division 3 and 4.

Simple, solves the 6th in division 1 problem, and doesn't need any more matches."
That's better than what's on the table.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 988 - 21/10/2021 14:33:23    2386653

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Given the successful AI SHC Tier 1 group phase (with it's one Prov-specific group & another for the Rest) I wonder why a compromise couldn't have been done with Ulster.

Separately, I thought up another group phase that could be better than Proposal B -
One tier of 32 teams divided into 4 equally-ranked mixed-quality groups of 8 (A to D).
Draw one team from each half of each NFL Div for balance.
Play 7-game round robins, EXCEPT replace the 1v4 likely mismatches, with two crossover 1v1 and 4v4 matches instead (AvB & CvD).
Top 4 in each group to KO Rd of 16 (crossover 1v4 & 2v3, AvC & BvD).
QFs, SFs, Final.
QF 8, Rd of 16 losers, 5/6 & 7/8 are the 1, 2, 3 & 4 seeds, respectively, for the following year.

The handicapping in Proposal B is too much

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 21/10/2021 14:46:38    2386658

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Probably some issues with it but all in all I hope this change goes through as it will be seriously better than what we currently have.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 999 - 21/10/2021 14:50:31    2386659

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is there a Division 1 final in your scenario as a single Division 1 provides a winner without the need for a final?"
Hey legendz, welcome back - nice to "see" you after so long !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 21/10/2021 14:52:50    2386661

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is there a Division 1 final in your scenario as a single Division 1 provides a winner without the need for a final?"
It's going to be really tough on teams that have 4 away games, we've had to play the dubs away the Last 2 years so does that mean we'll get home advantage against them for the next 2?

Also are quarter finals still going to be neutral venues? Otherwise dublin will have potentially 3 more home games than all the rest of the teams.

Could there be a thing that the top 2 or 4 teams in div 1 get home quarter finals?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13774 - 21/10/2021 14:54:20    2386664

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Replying To tyroneed:  "If option B is passed it can be tweaked apparently.

So here's a tweak that removes the disincentive to lower division 1 teams and keeps everything else...

Join Division 1 and 2 into a new top division of 16 teams. Split that into 1A and 1B at random with 8 teams in each. The top 6 from 1A and 1B reach the quarter finals direct and the next 2 go into the preliminary quarter finals against the winners of division 3 and 4.

Simple, solves the 6th in division 1 problem, and doesn't need any more matches."
It's interesting people have been commenting in the media about the President being able to tweak motions if the conversation is steering it in a certain direction but also it's unlikely it can tweaked and put to a vote on the same day.

There was talk the vote may be adjourned and another congress arranged for early next year if a tweak is required.

Personally I think the 6th place issue is a major one and your idea might be the solution. As the motion sits though I don't see it getting to 60%, a solution will have to be found and put into the motion for the team that finishes 6th in Division 1 hence why I can see another congress in Jan/Feb. Don't be surprised if the motion isn't even voted upon on Saturday and it's pulled for another day whilst this "tweak" is added and discussed in wider circles.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 850 - 21/10/2021 15:44:40    2386671

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Replying To wexico15:  "Here's how 183 votes are split this weekend, seen this on Twitter.

Carlow 2
Dublin 5
Kildare 3
Kilkenny 2
Laois 3
Longford 2
Louth 2
Meath 3
Offaly 2
Westmeath 3
Wexford 3
Wicklow 2
Galway 4
Leitrim 2
Mayo 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Clare 3
Cork 5
Kerry 4
Limerick 4
Tipperary 4
Waterford 3
Antrim 3
Armagh 3
Cavan 2
Derry 2
Donegal 2
Down 3
Fermanagh 2
Monaghan 2
Tyrone 3
London 2
Hertfordshire 2
Warwickshire 2
Gloucestershire 2
Lancashire 2
Yorkshire 2
Scotland 2
Europe 4
New York 2
USGAA 5
Canada 2
Australiasia 3
Asia 2
Middle East 2
Central Council 52
Former Presidents 7

According to Donncha Boyle in the Independent, County Votes are half of the norm but central council retains normal allocation, I don't think Larry McCarthy has a vote, Tom Ryan the Director General definitely doesn't.

Further breakdowns of the above information
Leinster 32
Connacht 13
Munster 23
Ulster 22
UK 14
Rest of Europe 4
North America 9
Australia/Asia/NZ 7

Provincial Votes combined 90
International Wings 34"
One would wonder for such important vote why isn't the normal Congress used instead of special one? Its a bit daft the overseas gets more votes than any province.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 2943 - 21/10/2021 15:49:17    2386674

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is there a Division 1 final in your scenario as a single Division 1 provides a winner without the need for a final?"
In my scenario there would be no Division 1 final. 3 from each of Division 1A and 1B going to the quarter finals direct and a 4th from each of Division 1A and 1B going to the preliminary quarter finals.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 748 - 21/10/2021 15:51:35    2386675

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Replying To The_analyser:  "One would wonder for such important vote why isn't the normal Congress used instead of special one? Its a bit daft the overseas gets more votes than any province."
Indeed…Connacht the poor relation again. The UK with a vote more than us. Does not make sense.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10820 - 21/10/2021 16:00:38    2386676

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Replying To The_analyser:  "One would wonder for such important vote why isn't the normal Congress used instead of special one? Its a bit daft the overseas gets more votes than any province."
The voting power is no different at this Special Congress than it would be at any "normal" Congress. Only reason it's at a special one and not a "normal" one is that the "normal" Congress back in February this year had to be an online one because of Covid restrictions, and it was decided to adjourn the football championship issue to when people could actually sit in a room together again.

There's actually another motion this weekend that would reduce the voting power of overseas units, if it's passed. Basically, the number of votes depends on the number of clubs in a unit. But all clubs are counted equally - e.g. a fairly casual gathering or 20 or 30 people in some far-flung spot counts the same as a Dublin "superclub" with 3,000 members.

But as I said above, that's a whole other issue, and to be honest, it's not one that most people would take a huge amoutn of interest in.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 756 - 21/10/2021 16:12:57    2386680

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All descent Div 2 teams out there laughing all the way. Get enough points gathered up to qualify and then hold back, ye don't want to finish 2nd and have to play a n Div1 next year. Finish 3rd for a few years and guarantee yourselves championship football every year. Total mockery.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 988 - 21/10/2021 16:39:45    2386690

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Replying To Saynothing:  "All descent Div 2 teams out there laughing all the way. Get enough points gathered up to qualify and then hold back, ye don't want to finish 2nd and have to play a n Div1 next year. Finish 3rd for a few years and guarantee yourselves championship football every year. Total mockery."
Wouldn't that be very difficult to manipulate? Hard to imagine a Division 2 team with so much ability and confidence.
In fact I don't think any of the top teams (now) in Division 1 would be cocky enough to manage their results.
No sir, we don't buy that one, even if the Ulster Championship is sacrosanct in some people's eyes.

JackMurphy (Cork) - Posts: 24 - 21/10/2021 17:56:22    2386710

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Replying To The_analyser:  "One would wonder for such important vote why isn't the normal Congress used instead of special one? Its a bit daft the overseas gets more votes than any province."
Yeah it's hard to see merit in many bodies not effected having such a big say i.e the oversees parties outside of London or New York.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 21/10/2021 20:27:54    2386725

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