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Replying To wexico15:  "The big win is playing the majority and most important games from April onwards instead of January to March which has been the case for 20 plus counties in recent years."
But that's going to happen now anyway. It's the calendar change not the new competitions proposals that are improving things.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 12:20:32    2386409

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Replying To brianb:  "I didn't see any lies in what greengrass posted. There is an incentive to drop down a division to have a better chance of getting knockout football the following year. No team will ever admit to that - but it could be in the back of a players mind.

There's actually a good comparison between hurling and football in terms of what people want. A properly tiered championship structure with promotion between levels. Proposal B is not that - the 25th best team is better than the 6th best team."
He/she claimed Option B gets rid of the leagues the best competition in the calendar, if you can't see this as a lie well got help ya.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 12:21:15    2386410

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But that's going to happen now anyway. It's the calendar change not the new competitions proposals that are improving things."
No it isn't option b is 7 games guaranteed from April onwards, status quo is 2 or 3.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 12:27:18    2386413

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Replying To wexico15:  "So how would you feel if the Kildare footballers intentionally got relegated? Do you seriously think your new dream team management would entertain this idea, time to start living in the real world. I agree that the 6th placed div 1 team should progress and that tweak should be made but if they didn't hey they had 7 games to secure their knockout place and didn't. Interesting on your hurling comparison that's already there with the Joe Mcdonagh finalists playing the 3rd placed teams in Munster and Leinster. Also there's far more depth in football. In hurling a Lory Meagher or Nicky Rackard team wouldn't compete with Offaly, Antrim, Kerry etc. but next year Cavan in Div 4 could compete with arguably all of Div 2 and possibly 2-4 Div 1 teams."
We're going around in circles here.

Hurling - 2nd Tier (Div 2) get an entry into the championship. 3rd & 4th tier winners don't. Plus the provincial championship is a very important competition due to its stature within the All Ireland series.

As I said before - teams won't intentionally get relegated; but it will be at the back of your mind. "If we get relegated here we can build better and come back stronger for Division 2". It mightn't be the outcome you wanted at the start of the year but the relegation pill would certainly be less bitter. Mayo were in Div 2 this year. Under this setup they would be able to aim to peak in June / July while the Top 5 would need to be on it from day 1. Another advantage to be in Div 2.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 20/10/2021 12:52:55    2386420

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Replying To wexico15:  "No it isn't option b is 7 games guaranteed from April onwards, status quo is 2 or 3."
No it's not. There will be league games in April. There will be 9 games guaranteed from March to May. There'll be the preseason competitions before those leagues.

What was there before this year is already significantly improved upon.

The league's are already going to get linked to the championship in a much more fair manner.

In proposal B you get Jan/February for Provincial championship group games which will have a tonne of dead rubbers by the end.

Many counties will have nothing going on in March at all which I always loved for football myself.

So if only games in April onwards county A is better but I would rather 9 games guaranteed between March to May than 7 guaranteed in April and May. You're getting 1 less game in April and May but getting a league campaign and the provincial championship in as compensation.

Honestly I just think proposal B is just flat out worse and it's only blind hatred of the provincial championships or not full analysis of the pros and cons between systems that can get someone to think proposal b is better.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 13:09:42    2386427

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Am I reading this right? The lowest based Ulster team in the League is moved to the Connacht Championship? If so it would probably be Antrim. So the biggest centre of playing population in Ulster, Belfast, goes out of it's native Championship? Is that wise? Nothing at all against Connacht but I believe that's foolish given the growth of Gaelic Games in Belfast.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9426 - 20/10/2021 13:55:19    2386437

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Replying To brianb:  "We're going around in circles here.

Hurling - 2nd Tier (Div 2) get an entry into the championship. 3rd & 4th tier winners don't. Plus the provincial championship is a very important competition due to its stature within the All Ireland series.

As I said before - teams won't intentionally get relegated; but it will be at the back of your mind. "If we get relegated here we can build better and come back stronger for Division 2". It mightn't be the outcome you wanted at the start of the year but the relegation pill would certainly be less bitter. Mayo were in Div 2 this year. Under this setup they would be able to aim to peak in June / July while the Top 5 would need to be on it from day 1. Another advantage to be in Div 2."
You're right, I'm sure there are mangers planning their best way to attack this new championship.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13774 - 20/10/2021 14:24:01    2386441

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Replying To brianb:  "We're going around in circles here.

Hurling - 2nd Tier (Div 2) get an entry into the championship. 3rd & 4th tier winners don't. Plus the provincial championship is a very important competition due to its stature within the All Ireland series.

As I said before - teams won't intentionally get relegated; but it will be at the back of your mind. "If we get relegated here we can build better and come back stronger for Division 2". It mightn't be the outcome you wanted at the start of the year but the relegation pill would certainly be less bitter. Mayo were in Div 2 this year. Under this setup they would be able to aim to peak in June / July while the Top 5 would need to be on it from day 1. Another advantage to be in Div 2."
We're going around in circles here= I picked glaring holes in your argument.

As i said in football Cavan & Tipperary both Div 4 in 2022 are capable of competing with Galway, Roscommon, Armagh etc.

The hurling equivalent Cavan, Fermanagh, Louth are not capable of competing with Offaly, Antrim or Kerry.

Its not like for like.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 14:40:35    2386446

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Proposal A is not getting traction which is a shame as the lopsided nature of Provincials is one of the biggest bugbears.

Why not instead of moving teams around we make it

Ulster top 8 sides
Leinster top 8 sides
Munster top 4
Connacht top 4


This would be based on that seasons league ranking ie the 8 teams lowest would go into the Tailtean Cup. They'd play in two groups of 4 with final and winner gets back into last round of qualifiers.

Munster champion plays Connacht champion for place for quarter final so they too need to win 3 games to make quarter final. Loser would get 2nd bite of the cherry in final round of qualifying.

This system would allow all Provincials to still be route to Sam, league would take on greater importance for seeding and every team would need to win at least 3 matches to make quarter final. Smaller teams would get to play at a more competitive level to win a meaningful trophy that also acts as gateway into All Ireland series.

No dead rubbers. Keeps local rivalries at the core of it. No demeaning the league or Provincials and clean structure that's easy to understand.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 174 - 20/10/2021 15:08:45    2386462

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Am I reading this right? The lowest based Ulster team in the League is moved to the Connacht Championship? If so it would probably be Antrim. So the biggest centre of playing population in Ulster, Belfast, goes out of it's native Championship? Is that wise? Nothing at all against Connacht but I believe that's foolish given the growth of Gaelic Games in Belfast."
That proposal isn't going to happen, it's probably not even going to make it to a vote.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 15:22:44    2386468

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Am I reading this right? The lowest based Ulster team in the League is moved to the Connacht Championship? If so it would probably be Antrim. So the biggest centre of playing population in Ulster, Belfast, goes out of it's native Championship? Is that wise? Nothing at all against Connacht but I believe that's foolish given the growth of Gaelic Games in Belfast."
Thats in option A which is by all accounts a non runner.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 15:23:32    2386469

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "You're right, I'm sure there are mangers planning their best way to attack this new championship."
Even if they don't try to get relegated, the interest around the relegation battle is lost completely. Galway are relegated sure they'll still have a good craic at next year. Meath finishing 3rd in Division 2 the jammy sods.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 15:25:36    2386470

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Replying To Whammo86:  "No it's not. There will be league games in April. There will be 9 games guaranteed from March to May. There'll be the preseason competitions before those leagues.

What was there before this year is already significantly improved upon.

The league's are already going to get linked to the championship in a much more fair manner.

In proposal B you get Jan/February for Provincial championship group games which will have a tonne of dead rubbers by the end.

Many counties will have nothing going on in March at all which I always loved for football myself.

So if only games in April onwards county A is better but I would rather 9 games guaranteed between March to May than 7 guaranteed in April and May. You're getting 1 less game in April and May but getting a league campaign and the provincial championship in as compensation.

Honestly I just think proposal B is just flat out worse and it's only blind hatred of the provincial championships or not full analysis of the pros and cons between systems that can get someone to think proposal b is better."
Pretty sure pre season competitions are gone, Niall Morgan mentioned in an interview a few weeks ago that there gone due to split season and teams back training later. In recent years pre seasons started before Christmas which might not be feasible if teams aren't permitted to train before December. How are leagues going to get linked to the championship with status quo, they'll remain as 2 separate entities. In 2018 and 19 championship started roughly May 10 with the final last Sunday of August. If the all ireland is moving forward a month how do expect the championship along with the tailteann cup to be ran without moving to start date to April too. Hurling championship start is been moved forward a month next year I'd be shocked if the same doesn't happen in football no matter what the structure is.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 15:34:19    2386472

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Even if they don't try to get relegated, the interest around the relegation battle is lost completely. Galway are relegated sure they'll still have a good craic at next year. Meath finishing 3rd in Division 2 the jammy sods."
That's it exactly.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13774 - 20/10/2021 16:14:30    2386482

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Even if they don't try to get relegated, the interest around the relegation battle is lost completely. Galway are relegated sure they'll still have a good craic at next year. Meath finishing 3rd in Division 2 the jammy sods."
You might be right. In reality, no team outside of Division 1 has a hope of winning an All Ireland. Relegation would not be wise. If a team is going to compete for Sam, they will only progress in Division 1.

That is not an argument for proposal B.

The tiered structure is the way to go possibly but that has been debated to death on here...complete elimination from winning Sam (though most have zero chance) is just NOT acceptable to too many people..its fine to suggest ideas but we have to be pragmatic on what will make it to congress or not or what might pass

Proposal B , on a trial basis, now has the backing of the majority of players, central council and many county boards..yet it still might not get through..

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3878 - 20/10/2021 17:02:25    2386488

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Replying To wexico15:  "This post is absolutely hilarious where do I start, you've resorted to lies. Lie no. 1 the leagues aren't gone, there's still 2 teams promoted and relegated as there's been since this league structure was introduced in 2008. Instead of being put to the bin as you claim the league the best competition of the year is enhanced played in April to June rather than Jan- March and its linked to the championship. There was never talk of getting rid of the hurling provincial because they didn't become a waste of time like arguably 3 of 4 have in football not withstanding a time when Kilkenny were streets ahead of the pack in Leinster, in football as I outlined previously a typical football year in the last decade is some brilliant football played in the league, a mundane provincial series plus qualifiers and a brilliant all ireland final and semi finals to salvage the year. Do you seriously think teams will intentionally get relegated? Cop on players would have the manager out the door in a flash if he entertained the idea, players want to improve and do you think intentionally getting relegated will do this. Lie No.2 there won't be a swell of dead rubbers in div 3, given Louth have spent 8 of the last 10 years in either div 2 or 3 it surely has crossed your mind about 2 teams been promoted and 2 relegated, agreed there will be some in div 4 but not anymore than there are in a normal national league campaign. Ofcourse Div 1 and 2 will get more attention but that's sport, that's why Man utd v Liverpool gets more attention than Norwich v Brighton or Munster v Leinster gets more attention than Zebre v Cardiff its an imperfect world. It's about meaningful games deep into the year instead of January to March been the prime time which has been the case for over 20 counties in recent campaigns, given that you've resorted to lies I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you have vested interests in all of this involved in a provincial council or something similar."
I don't have any vested interests. Hurling has two clearly defined competitions the league and the tiered championship which is played on a league basis with promotion and relegation. Football won't have a league. Football will have a championship only which will initially be played on a league basis followed by a knockout conclusion for 24 of the 32 competing teams. There will be no leagues played independently of the championship. The league is not enhanced. Rather than being contested independently of the championship as a competition in it's own right all of the football played on a league basis will do nothing more than qualify a team for the knockout stages of the championship. Given that fact if you think there are teams that will not consider dropping down a division in order to give themselves a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire then you are a very naive individual. Teams were more than prepared to break the Covid restrictions. I am well aware of Louth's league history. Louth have not been competitive in Division Two in recent times. Their best chance of qualification for the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire in recent times would have been as the top team in Division Four. Progress would be to qualify as the top team in Division Three. That progress would also be achieved through a league competition that is independent of the championship which is what we have now. There will be plenty of dead rubbers in Divisions Three and Four. Relegation from Division Three won't hurt any team because the same prize is on offer in Division Four as is on offer in Division Three. The top team in each division qualifies for the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire. The rest will be in the Tailteann Cup. The details of the Tailteann Cup haven't even been finalised. I'm glad you used the phrase "meaningful games" being played "late in the year." I would extrapolate from that that you don't believe the provincial championship matches would be " meaningful' given that they will be played in January and February. We will be losing the provincial championships as a part of the championships and the national league. They will be replaced by a single competition that will be called the championship which will see it's earlier stage run on a league basis. This competition will not offer enough to replace that which is being lost. Once again I refer you to the competition structures in hurling which allow for separate league and championship competitions. Compare that to the single, hybrid competition that is Option B.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5691 - 20/10/2021 17:03:13    2386489

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I think it's academic now. Normally the top table gets what it wants. Given what has transpired this afternoon I would think Option B will be passed. Overseas votes account for 19% of the votes cast. Larry McCarthy will strongly influence those votes. A large number of the county delegates also look to be in favour of it too.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5691 - 20/10/2021 17:07:36    2386490

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The fact that the Ard Stiurothoir & Uachtaran have come out canvassing for a particular motion before the motion even reaches the floor of Congress beggars belief. As the two highest office holders within the Association they really should be seen as administrators for all, not just whatever section piques their interest & should have withheld their views.

Both proposals are flawed & not enough consultation or possible pitfalls have been discussed & yet again another radical change is being brought in without precise clarity. It's amazing how club players are forgotten about in all of this, the disrespect for club players who will have their season altered yet again, revolving around Inter County with even more Inter County games added to the calendar.
GAA & GPA singing from the same hymn sheet as it is another step towards semi pro / pro set up & additional TV Rights money for both.

Ironically Provincial Councils who have a lot of full time personnel & hold a lot of sway in Congress, will not want to see their power diluted. The motion may struggle to get the 60% majority if Provincial Councils go against it.

Another old chestnut that will surface & was one of the most negative acts ever carried out at Congress, will come into play, the Transparency factor. The fact that no one will know who voted what way & Delegates won't be answerable to their Counties & Clubs, as they will have no idea how they voted as the Delegates at Congress voted down & castigated a proposal on Transparency in 2018. If that motion was passed we would all be able to see the results & know how all Delegates voted & did they vote as instructed by their Counties. The Transparency factor will come back to haunt both sides at Congress.

One thing the whole thing has highlighted is how fractured the Association is at various levels. It also highlights how money has become one the main components & it seems to dictate the direction of the Association.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1094 - 20/10/2021 17:08:11    2386491

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Even if they don't try to get relegated, the interest around the relegation battle is lost completely. Galway are relegated sure they'll still have a good craic at next year. Meath finishing 3rd in Division 2 the jammy sods."
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Not quite whammo. The interest around the relegation battle is not lost completely - as a few of us have pointed out.
If Armagh & Monaghan and finish 6 & 7th in NFL1 2022 after some tight losses but reasonable performances which county has the better chance of making the Qtrs in 2023.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 20/10/2021 17:09:51    2386492

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Replying To timmyhogan:  ".

Not quite whammo. The interest around the relegation battle is not lost completely - as a few of us have pointed out.
If Armagh & Monaghan and finish 6 & 7th in NFL1 2022 after some tight losses but reasonable performances which county has the better chance of making the Qtrs in 2023."
I'd say Monaghan

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 17:16:49    2386495

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