National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Greengrass:  "Grand."
Listening to Off the Ball today i think there is central council votes involving people in provincial councils, those 52 votes sound like a very broad diaspora. Ladies Football, Camogie, Handball, Rounders, GPA all part of it from what I gather. Every Man, Woman and Child.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 21/10/2021 20:31:12    2386727

Link

Few negatives with Proposal B,
I hope the provincials can still remain relevant as local rivalry can make them enjoyable and give them a good edge. Travel to Provincial games would obviously generally be much easier than playing a team outside the province so you tend to have a good mix of rival supporters at provincial games. Winning a provincial title still means a lot to many counties. If the provincial titles become too devalued it will mean all 32 inter county teams basically have only one serious competition to play for each year
A problem with the proposal may be that it leads to a situation where it might be easier for a team in division 2 to make the quarter finals than a team from division 1.
But the positive for me outweighs the list of negatives above. The commitment players put in now a days make it ridiculous to think that for a huge amount they do all this for maybe 2 or 3 meaningful games a year and many of these games are mismatches.
We should have more good games to watch, played between evenly matched teams and played generally in better weather conditions.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 999 - 21/10/2021 21:02:20    2386733

Link

To accommodate the 6th team in Division 1 in the preliminary quarter-finals;
Division 3 winner v 6th from Division 1.
Division 4 winner v 5th from Division 1.
2nd from Division 2 v 3rd from Division 2. (Winner promoted)
Top 4 from Division 1 and Division 2 winners given bye to quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6322 - 21/10/2021 21:44:36    2386736

Link

Replying To bdbuddah:  "Few negatives with Proposal B,
I hope the provincials can still remain relevant as local rivalry can make them enjoyable and give them a good edge. Travel to Provincial games would obviously generally be much easier than playing a team outside the province so you tend to have a good mix of rival supporters at provincial games. Winning a provincial title still means a lot to many counties. If the provincial titles become too devalued it will mean all 32 inter county teams basically have only one serious competition to play for each year
A problem with the proposal may be that it leads to a situation where it might be easier for a team in division 2 to make the quarter finals than a team from division 1.
But the positive for me outweighs the list of negatives above. The commitment players put in now a days make it ridiculous to think that for a huge amount they do all this for maybe 2 or 3 meaningful games a year and many of these games are mismatches.
We should have more good games to watch, played between evenly matched teams and played generally in better weather conditions."
That's quite a good summary of the discussion on here. I think both of those negatives didn't need to be compromised on and I would be skeptical that Proposal B would be "tweaked" after the vote to fix the anomies. Sure over time Divisions 1 & 2 would likely get merged into a 1A and 1B - but the provincials; I'd fear once they've been relegated they'll never come back.

Your last couple of sentences show how we've come to a different conclusion - some of us think of the league as meaningful games in their own right - more of us believe it is still "only the league". I believe the league is a meaningful competition so we're replacing 9 or 10 guaranteed meaningful games for 7. If you're in the "only the league" camp we're replacing a guaranteed 2 or 3 meaningful games for 7.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 22/10/2021 09:53:24    2386746

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "To accommodate the 6th team in Division 1 in the preliminary quarter-finals;
Division 3 winner v 6th from Division 1.
Division 4 winner v 5th from Division 1.
2nd from Division 2 v 3rd from Division 2. (Winner promoted)
Top 4 from Division 1 and Division 2 winners given bye to quarter-finals."
That's actually quite a smart change.

I don't love the lower division teams getting in but if it has to be that way yours is a better way to do it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 22/10/2021 09:59:51    2386748

Link

I am broadly in favor of plan B. I do expect to see an issue arise with the availability of volunteers for extra big matches, especially at gates and turnstiles. Mind you more and more ticket sales are now being done online.

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1069 - 22/10/2021 10:02:19    2386749

Link

Replying To brianb:  "That's quite a good summary of the discussion on here. I think both of those negatives didn't need to be compromised on and I would be skeptical that Proposal B would be "tweaked" after the vote to fix the anomies. Sure over time Divisions 1 & 2 would likely get merged into a 1A and 1B - but the provincials; I'd fear once they've been relegated they'll never come back.

Your last couple of sentences show how we've come to a different conclusion - some of us think of the league as meaningful games in their own right - more of us believe it is still "only the league". I believe the league is a meaningful competition so we're replacing 9 or 10 guaranteed meaningful games for 7. If you're in the "only the league" camp we're replacing a guaranteed 2 or 3 meaningful games for 7."
Yeah I think the league is already meaningful in its own right as is and better scheduling off it alongside provincial championship would be better for the season than competition format changes.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 22/10/2021 10:03:24    2386750

Link

Hope Proposal B fails and it's only got traction thanks to the GPA. It's deeply flawed. The big negative for me is the seedings. Division 3 and 4 teams shouldn't get preference over the bottom 3 in Division 1.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 456 - 22/10/2021 10:04:25    2386751

Link

Replying To brianb:  "That's quite a good summary of the discussion on here. I think both of those negatives didn't need to be compromised on and I would be skeptical that Proposal B would be "tweaked" after the vote to fix the anomies. Sure over time Divisions 1 & 2 would likely get merged into a 1A and 1B - but the provincials; I'd fear once they've been relegated they'll never come back.

Your last couple of sentences show how we've come to a different conclusion - some of us think of the league as meaningful games in their own right - more of us believe it is still "only the league". I believe the league is a meaningful competition so we're replacing 9 or 10 guaranteed meaningful games for 7. If you're in the "only the league" camp we're replacing a guaranteed 2 or 3 meaningful games for 7."
I think the league is meaningful and more meaningful than championship currently for over 20 teams( they've something tanigable to aim for rather than just a win or 2 in championship), thats why I want change, I don't want the most meaningful competition for most teams played from Jan- March. Worst thing can happen is stick with whats there already as its become unfit for purpose in my opinion, hopefully Tailteann Cup is a success no matter what structure is there. As I said previously no matter what championship structure is in place Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc. will most likely be at the business end but I think this could be a game changer for Div 2,3 and 4 teams.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 22/10/2021 10:11:27    2386753

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I think the league is already meaningful in its own right as is and better scheduling off it alongside provincial championship would be better for the season than competition format changes."
I think the fact the most prestigious competition ( championship) is less than important than our second competition ( league) for over half of teams involved is the definition of a flawed and broken system.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 22/10/2021 10:31:46    2386758

Link

Replying To Rolo2010:  "Hope Proposal B fails and it's only got traction thanks to the GPA. It's deeply flawed. The big negative for me is the seedings. Division 3 and 4 teams shouldn't get preference over the bottom 3 in Division 1."
So the fact the players primary representative body is in favour can just be ignored, yes i agree its not perfect but i definitely believe it's better than what we have.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 22/10/2021 10:34:14    2386760

Link

I think the Tailteann Cup can only be a success if its winners are guaranteed qualification for the "championship proper" the following year - much like how the UEFA Cup winners in soccer get to play in the Champions League the following season, or the winners of the Challenge Cup in rugby get to play in the Champions Cup, irrespective of where they finish in their league.

Otherwise it really would be no more than a glorified consolation prize with nothing really tangible to show for it.

Maybe after the first year, remove the place in the last 16 that's reserved for the Div. 4 winners, and allow the Tailteann Cup winners of the previous year to take it instead?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 756 - 22/10/2021 10:49:28    2386764

Link

I see Mayo are voting against it now, after JH provided very valid reasons. The strongest argument put forward in favor of B by players reps, was the need to put an end to meanless games such as Kerry V Waterford, Mayo V Leitrim/Sligo. But plan B involves giving teams from Div 3 and 4 a free pass to the quarter finals at the expence of a DIV 1 team that may have been relegated. Hard to see fairness in that.

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1069 - 22/10/2021 10:52:40    2386766

Link

Replying To wexico15:  "I think the league is meaningful and more meaningful than championship currently for over 20 teams( they've something tanigable to aim for rather than just a win or 2 in championship), thats why I want change, I don't want the most meaningful competition for most teams played from Jan- March. Worst thing can happen is stick with whats there already as its become unfit for purpose in my opinion, hopefully Tailteann Cup is a success no matter what structure is there. As I said previously no matter what championship structure is in place Dublin, Kerry, Mayo etc. will most likely be at the business end but I think this could be a game changer for Div 2,3 and 4 teams."
I think what you're getting at there is more to do with the scheduling of the matches rather than the structure of the matches. Yes Proposal B moves more games into warmer, drier months - that's definitely a good thing but if that was the sole aim it could be done by re-arranging the order the games are played in.

We could play provincial preliminary & 1/4 and semi final rounds between league games with the aim of extending the league season into the summer without changing anything about the championship structure. I'm not suggesting this would be the best way forward - I still think the championship needs to change from its current format but the scheduling and the structure can be thought of slightly differently.

I don't think using the league for seeding the All Ireland is a bad idea; but add any unqualified provincial champions into the mix and make the seeding fair.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 22/10/2021 10:59:05    2386768

Link

Replying To wexico15:  "So the fact the players primary representative body is in favour can just be ignored, yes i agree its not perfect but i definitely believe it's better than what we have."
It's not better and most players didn't actually respond to the GPA poll.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 456 - 22/10/2021 11:11:30    2386771

Link

Replying To tyroneed:  "The football championship has to be a league stage followed by a knockout stage. Provinicials run as separate stand alone competitions.

The solution is obvious. The only question is how along it will take the GAA hierarchy to adopt these radical proposals of 30 years ago."
I don't understand any of this stuff, it gives me a headache tbh. But would there be no way to link he provincials to the structure you propose above by stipulating, e.g., that provincial winners get a bye into the final stages of the knockout phase? Didn't someone come up with an idea like that years ago, Brolly or McGuinness or somebody? I remember reading something ages ago and being impressed by it.

Clones on an Ulster final day, the claustrophobia! The tension! The tribalism! The drinkers on the hilly packed streets, everyone in good humour. The crack and the post-mortems afterwards with fellow and opposition fans over tay and sandwiches out of the car boots. Mary McAleese's helicopter landing beside the silo pit in the field behind Tony's Gym. And even the pitch itself seemed to be a sort of sun trap, you would often get sunburnt at Clones for some reason, even if you wouldn't get burned a mile down the road. For atmosphere, Clones has the sterile Croke Park licked every time. Some of my best fan memories. Hate to see it go.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1069 - 22/10/2021 11:12:58    2386774

Link

Replying To brianb:  "I think what you're getting at there is more to do with the scheduling of the matches rather than the structure of the matches. Yes Proposal B moves more games into warmer, drier months - that's definitely a good thing but if that was the sole aim it could be done by re-arranging the order the games are played in.

We could play provincial preliminary & 1/4 and semi final rounds between league games with the aim of extending the league season into the summer without changing anything about the championship structure. I'm not suggesting this would be the best way forward - I still think the championship needs to change from its current format but the scheduling and the structure can be thought of slightly differently.

I don't think using the league for seeding the All Ireland is a bad idea; but add any unqualified provincial champions into the mix and make the seeding fair."
Something I think B falls short on is that it's an opportunity to add more good games and doesn't.

You could have the current league, knockout provincials and then finish the season with a 3 tier group stage All Ireland would be a similar number of games to proposal B but better games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 22/10/2021 11:18:20    2386776

Link

Replying To brianb:  "That's quite a good summary of the discussion on here. I think both of those negatives didn't need to be compromised on and I would be skeptical that Proposal B would be "tweaked" after the vote to fix the anomies. Sure over time Divisions 1 & 2 would likely get merged into a 1A and 1B - but the provincials; I'd fear once they've been relegated they'll never come back.

Your last couple of sentences show how we've come to a different conclusion - some of us think of the league as meaningful games in their own right - more of us believe it is still "only the league". I believe the league is a meaningful competition so we're replacing 9 or 10 guaranteed meaningful games for 7. If you're in the "only the league" camp we're replacing a guaranteed 2 or 3 meaningful games for 7."
Your presuming the provincials ran early in the year will be a dead duck, arguably Leinster has been a dead duck for 8 or 9 years everyone else just cannon fodder for Dublin.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 22/10/2021 11:19:00    2386777

Link

Replying To giveitlong:  "I see Mayo are voting against it now, after JH provided very valid reasons. The strongest argument put forward in favor of B by players reps, was the need to put an end to meanless games such as Kerry V Waterford, Mayo V Leitrim/Sligo. But plan B involves giving teams from Div 3 and 4 a free pass to the quarter finals at the expence of a DIV 1 team that may have been relegated. Hard to see fairness in that."
The Div 3 and 4 winners only get to the Round before the quarter finals.
By the way where did the nonsense title "Preliminary Quarter Finals" come from?
Will we now call Quarter Finals "Preliminary Semi finals " or Semis "Preliminary Final"??

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 52 - 22/10/2021 11:34:16    2386782

Link

Replying To wexico15:  "Your presuming the provincials ran early in the year will be a dead duck, arguably Leinster has been a dead duck for 8 or 9 years everyone else just cannon fodder for Dublin."
Yes - I believe that making the provincial championship inconsequential will over time demote it into irrelevance. If proposal B passes I hope I am wrong on that; but I don't think its a risk worth taking.

A lot of things had to go wrong (or right from a Dubs perspective) for Dublin's Leinster dominance to go unchecked for so long. I don't think that is to do with the championship structure though. There's been plenty of other threads on this. The "dead duck" leinster championship is a symptom of the problem; not the problem. Fix it - don't throw it out.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 22/10/2021 11:43:12    2386785

Link