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Replying To wexico15: "We're going around in circles here= I picked glaring holes in your argument.
As i said in football Cavan & Tipperary both Div 4 in 2022 are capable of competing with Galway, Roscommon, Armagh etc.
The hurling equivalent Cavan, Fermanagh, Louth are not capable of competing with Offaly, Antrim or Kerry.
Its not like for like." No - you introduced a new argument to say "Look at the hurling championship" as an example where lower tier teams are entered back into the the main competition. 2/8 lower ranked teams are given a shot. Under proposal B this is 50/50 with 2/10 from way lower tiers. The hurling championship is tiered nicely and not a bad model of what a tiered championship would look like. It is nothing like Proposal B. Can you now see this is not a valid comparison?
Cavan and Tipp may well feel they're capable of operating at a higher level - they should really be incentivised to gain promotion from where they are right now - certainly a low ebb in terms of league form.
You believe the Provincial championships are broken beyond repair and so should be demoted in terms of importance. I do not believe this. They are certainly not without their problems but to cast them aside as a pre-season competition is a massive mistake.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 283 - 20/10/2021 17:17:05
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Replying To wexico15: "Pretty sure pre season competitions are gone, Niall Morgan mentioned in an interview a few weeks ago that there gone due to split season and teams back training later. In recent years pre seasons started before Christmas which might not be feasible if teams aren't permitted to train before December. How are leagues going to get linked to the championship with status quo, they'll remain as 2 separate entities. In 2018 and 19 championship started roughly May 10 with the final last Sunday of August. If the all ireland is moving forward a month how do expect the championship along with the tailteann cup to be ran without moving to start date to April too. Hurling championship start is been moved forward a month next year I'd be shocked if the same doesn't happen in football no matter what the structure is." I mean this is my point the scheduling is the issue. The All Ireland can be played off in 12 weekends. If league championship can be played with 7 rounds over 9 weekends, 4 rounds of Provincials plus 4 rounds of All Ireland series can be played off in 12. May to July.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 20/10/2021 17:25:10
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Replying To bennybunny: "You might be right. In reality, no team outside of Division 1 has a hope of winning an All Ireland. Relegation would not be wise. If a team is going to compete for Sam, they will only progress in Division 1.
That is not an argument for proposal B.
The tiered structure is the way to go possibly but that has been debated to death on here...complete elimination from winning Sam (though most have zero chance) is just NOT acceptable to too many people..its fine to suggest ideas but we have to be pragmatic on what will make it to congress or not or what might pass
Proposal B , on a trial basis, now has the backing of the majority of players, central council and many county boards..yet it still might not get through.." I don't agree that teams don't have a hope of winning from division 2. The likes of Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal can find themselves in there no bother with a couple of results go the wrong way. They'd definitely be able to turn it around in a year or get a few strokes of luck.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 20/10/2021 17:27:28
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If it comes in which looks likely I honestly hope it's a success. It feels like it's a shot in the dark though rather than well considered change.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 20/10/2021 17:44:37
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Replying To Whammo86: "No it's not. There will be league games in April. There will be 9 games guaranteed from March to May. There'll be the preseason competitions before those leagues.
What was there before this year is already significantly improved upon.
The league's are already going to get linked to the championship in a much more fair manner.
In proposal B you get Jan/February for Provincial championship group games which will have a tonne of dead rubbers by the end.
Many counties will have nothing going on in March at all which I always loved for football myself.
So if only games in April onwards county A is better but I would rather 9 games guaranteed between March to May than 7 guaranteed in April and May. You're getting 1 less game in April and May but getting a league campaign and the provincial championship in as compensation.
Honestly I just think proposal B is just flat out worse and it's only blind hatred of the provincial championships or not full analysis of the pros and cons between systems that can get someone to think proposal b is better." Proposal B is just going for change for the sake of change and I see even our own county delegates has jumped on that.
The provincial championships are scrapped under proposal B and we'll have a Provincial league played in February and March instead which is the FBD, O bryne and McKenna cups retained with the finals of it played the first weekend of April and one week before the league/championship format commences.
The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 3756 - 20/10/2021 17:59:13
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People might not like what Joe Brolly has to say on the matter (or anything for that matter) but it's hard to disagree with him about the upcoming decision to be made at congress ...
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/proposals-a-and-b-are-the-father-ted-and-dougal-entries-in-eurosong-40955962.html
Proposal B has the bones of a good idea but where's the incentive for any county to win a secondary competition? There has to be an incentive outside of league standing. If a club won an 'intermediate' title at county level, the club team would automatically be promoted to senior. I don't see why this would not happen at a national level (even for one season if not more). There's no avenue for that to happen in proposal B. I don't want to see the provincial championships turn in to pre season competitions either like the FBD league, O'Byrne Cup etc. I would also rather see the provincial championships played on a league basis much like the munster hurling championship. Other provinces could take a different structure for example Ulster which has a strong provincial championship (maybe a hybrid of league / knockout... I dont know). More games are definitely needed at county level and the club player needs to also feel part of this proposal also. Clubs shouldn't be disadvantaged because they have players playing county or be forced to play without.
Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 844 - 20/10/2021 18:01:09
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't agree that teams don't have a hope of winning from division 2. The likes of Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal can find themselves in there no bother with a couple of results go the wrong way. They'd definitely be able to turn it around in a year or get a few strokes of luck." OK, I phrased poorly. They have some hope but then again so do Cavan and Tipp ( given they reached semi finals last year) and they are in Division 4. Most likely a team from Division 1 will the All Ireland. Do you know how many times a team from Division 2 has won the All Ireland? I don't and I can't name the last one but I am guessing it is a while back and it has happened very few times.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 20/10/2021 19:28:05
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Proposal B tweak suggestion;
Preliminary Quarter-finals:
5th Division 1 v 4th Division 2
3rd Division 2 v 6th Division 1
1st Division 3 v 2nd Division 2
1st Division 4 v 4th Division 1
(Home advantage to first team listed.)
Bye to quarter-finals: 1st, 2nd & 3rd Division 1 and 1st Division 2.
Top 2 in Division 2 promoted.
If 3rd and/or 4th Division 2 win their preliminary quarter-final, they would be promoted with their defeated opponent relegated.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 20/10/2021 21:23:55
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Under the current Proposal B for some middle of the road teams being in Div. 2 will actually give them a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland [A.I]. A team like Roscommon would be an example. For the last few seasons they have been a yo yo team between Div, 1 and Div. 2-too good for Div. 2 but not good enough for Div. 1. So actually finishing 3nd in Div.2 would be an idea place to be in- qualify for AI this year while also have good chance of qualifying the following year.
The following farcical situations could arise- scenario[a]going into the last round of games in Div. 2 a team is guaranteed to finish at least in 3nd place and qualify for AI while a win would put them in the top 2 and also a place in AI and promotion to Div. 1 but make it more difficult to qualify for following years AI . What would they do?
Scenario - going into the last round of games in Div. 1 a team knows that a win would secure 6th place and safety [ but outside the top 5 that qualify for AI while a loss would mean relegation to Div. 2 and know they have an enhanced chance of qualifying for AI the following year. What would they do? I am sure that in each scenario the particular teams would strive to win their respective games but the truth is that temptation should not be there in the first place as it questions the integrity of the whole structure/competition.
This is a major flaw for Proposal B. Another is 5 out of the 10 teams [50%] qualifying for the AI are of a lower ranking than 3 of the Div. 1 teams that are missing out and 2 out 10 [20%] are ranked 17th[Div. 3 winner and 25th[ Div. 4 winner]
On page 24 of forum I detailed the Enhanced Proposal B. While not perfect as it also includes 2 lower ranking teams -[ joint 17th]- the winners of Div, 2 North and the winners of Div. 2 South qualifying for AI. This was done as the principal of Proposal B is to have all teams involved in AI. The ideal and most logical option and my preferred option would be to have a tiered championship with two or preferably three tiers with promotion and relegation between the tiers. There would then be 3 All Ireland titles to be played for like there is in the ladies competitions. Unfortunately I can not see this happening anytime soon.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 32 - 20/10/2021 21:35:02
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Here's how 183 votes are split this weekend, seen this on Twitter.
Carlow 2
Dublin 5
Kildare 3
Kilkenny 2
Laois 3
Longford 2
Louth 2
Meath 3
Offaly 2
Westmeath 3
Wexford 3
Wicklow 2
Galway 4
Leitrim 2
Mayo 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Clare 3
Cork 5
Kerry 4
Limerick 4
Tipperary 4
Waterford 3
Antrim 3
Armagh 3
Cavan 2
Derry 2
Donegal 2
Down 3
Fermanagh 2
Monaghan 2
Tyrone 3
London 2
Hertfordshire 2
Warwickshire 2
Gloucestershire 2
Lancashire 2
Yorkshire 2
Scotland 2
Europe 4
New York 2
USGAA 5
Canada 2
Australiasia 3
Asia 2
Middle East 2
Central Council 52
Former Presidents 7
According to Donncha Boyle in the Independent, County Votes are half of the norm but central council retains normal allocation, I don't think Larry McCarthy has a vote, Tom Ryan the Director General definitely doesn't.
Further breakdowns of the above information
Leinster 32
Connacht 13
Munster 23
Ulster 22
UK 14
Rest of Europe 4
North America 9
Australia/Asia/NZ 7
Provincial Votes combined 90
International Wings 34
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 21/10/2021 08:50:50
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Replying To bennybunny: "OK, I phrased poorly. They have some hope but then again so do Cavan and Tipp ( given they reached semi finals last year) and they are in Division 4. Most likely a team from Division 1 will the All Ireland. Do you know how many times a team from Division 2 has won the All Ireland? I don't and I can't name the last one but I am guessing it is a while back and it has happened very few times." The final in 2002 was between Armagh and Kerry both teams that were in the old division 2 a merged 3 and 4. The winner is less likely to come from division 2 no doubt but it's not an outlandish prospect at all and way more likely than Cavan and Tipp reaching semifinals.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 21/10/2021 09:50:09
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Replying To wexico15: "Here's how 183 votes are split this weekend, seen this on Twitter.
Carlow 2
Dublin 5
Kildare 3
Kilkenny 2
Laois 3
Longford 2
Louth 2
Meath 3
Offaly 2
Westmeath 3
Wexford 3
Wicklow 2
Galway 4
Leitrim 2
Mayo 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Clare 3
Cork 5
Kerry 4
Limerick 4
Tipperary 4
Waterford 3
Antrim 3
Armagh 3
Cavan 2
Derry 2
Donegal 2
Down 3
Fermanagh 2
Monaghan 2
Tyrone 3
London 2
Hertfordshire 2
Warwickshire 2
Gloucestershire 2
Lancashire 2
Yorkshire 2
Scotland 2
Europe 4
New York 2
USGAA 5
Canada 2
Australiasia 3
Asia 2
Middle East 2
Central Council 52
Former Presidents 7
According to Donncha Boyle in the Independent, County Votes are half of the norm but central council retains normal allocation, I don't think Larry McCarthy has a vote, Tom Ryan the Director General definitely doesn't.
Further breakdowns of the above information
Leinster 32
Connacht 13
Munster 23
Ulster 22
UK 14
Rest of Europe 4
North America 9
Australia/Asia/NZ 7
Provincial Votes combined 90
International Wings 34" Wexico do the Provincial Councils not have votes? Looking at your figures it is certain to be passed yet there is still uncertainty.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 21/10/2021 10:15:17
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Replying To Whammo86: "The final in 2002 was between Armagh and Kerry both teams that were in the old division 2 a merged 3 and 4. The winner is less likely to come from division 2 no doubt but it's not an outlandish prospect at all and way more likely than Cavan and Tipp reaching semifinals." Galway came from the old Division Three in 1998.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 21/10/2021 10:25:48
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Replying To Greengrass: "Galway came from the old Division Three in 1998." It was different back then. In those days the top 4 in Division 1 qualified for the league 1/4 finals along with the top 2 in Division 2; and the top teams in Division 3 & 4.
Does this remind anyone of anything??
It was quite broken and wasn't working so it actually changed in 1998 to 4 groups with the top 2 in each qualifying before reverting to a 1A/B & 2A/B the following year. Galway were in Division 3 in 1997 but topped Group A in 1998.
I had a look back through the records and can't find a winner from outside Division 1 since the format changed to Div 1/2/3/4 in 2008. The closest was Cork who were promoted to Division 1 in 2009. Also interesting is that outside of Cork no team outside of the 2009 Division 1 has won an All Ireland since - as another poster said on here; that could be a big driver in the one sided nature of the championship - the best teams playing the best teams improve each other while collectively pulling away from everyone else. Proposal B would only further entrench this.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 283 - 21/10/2021 10:58:24
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Replying To Greengrass: "Wexico do the Provincial Councils not have votes? Looking at your figures it is certain to be passed yet there is still uncertainty." I don't know I presumed they would have, maybe there part of the 52 votes given for Central Council, they certainly have influence I'd imagine. I don't think anyone can say with certainty what way the vote will go.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 21/10/2021 11:00:20
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From what I've seen in media the County votes look like in round figures 40 for, 20 against and 10 or 15 we'll see on the day. C. 20 others I haven't seen any reports on.
I'd suspect most overseas and large proportion of Central Council will go with the President's views.
Are CC delegates mandated to vote for what their Co Board decide?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1419 - 21/10/2021 11:19:58
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Replying To Whammo86: "The final in 2002 was between Armagh and Kerry both teams that were in the old division 2 a merged 3 and 4. The winner is less likely to come from division 2 no doubt but it's not an outlandish prospect at all and way more likely than Cavan and Tipp reaching semifinals." No not outlandish. I did not use that word but as I said, I phrased poorly.
For any Division 2 team to win an All Ireland under proposal B, they will definitely play a Division 1 team in Q Final (assuming logical seeding) and most likely two Division 1 teams in semi and in final. Three knockout games.
You are knowledgeable on stats to be fair. Can you advise when was the last time a team outside Division 1 beat three Division 1 teams in straight knockout games to win the All Ireland? I don't but maybe it was that 2002 year? Armagh I assume? How many times has it happened do you know?
For Cavan to reach a semi final next year they would have to beat a Division 2 team in Prlim Q FINAL and one Division 1 team in Q FINAL. They showed last year they could do that. Granted Cavan and Tipp are unlikely to be in Division 4 long term and most Division 4 sides would not be capable. In same way really they are not capable of winning anything bar Division 4 titles.
Look, we both agree that Division 1 sides are much more like to win an All Ireland. Therefore, if that is the aim it would in no way be beneficial for a team to get relgated. If the aim for the likes of Roscommon, Galway, Armagh (teams between 1 and 2) aim is just to make q final then let them go to Division 2 and give them ' easier' games against 'weaker' teams. They must get it spot on then when they get to Q FINAL, semi etc or they are out. History shows that is what will happen. If they stay in Division 1, they can actually afford to lose a few games and still get to q final.
But all the structural changes in the world won't make a difference. Those that want to compete must just get their house in order. Players and managers want this to go through.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 21/10/2021 11:23:35
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Replying To wexico15: "I don't know I presumed they would have, maybe there part of the 52 votes given for Central Council, they certainly have influence I'd imagine. I don't think anyone can say with certainty what way the vote will go." Grand.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 21/10/2021 12:13:10
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Replying To bennybunny: "No not outlandish. I did not use that word but as I said, I phrased poorly.
For any Division 2 team to win an All Ireland under proposal B, they will definitely play a Division 1 team in Q Final (assuming logical seeding) and most likely two Division 1 teams in semi and in final. Three knockout games.
You are knowledgeable on stats to be fair. Can you advise when was the last time a team outside Division 1 beat three Division 1 teams in straight knockout games to win the All Ireland? I don't but maybe it was that 2002 year? Armagh I assume? How many times has it happened do you know?
For Cavan to reach a semi final next year they would have to beat a Division 2 team in Prlim Q FINAL and one Division 1 team in Q FINAL. They showed last year they could do that. Granted Cavan and Tipp are unlikely to be in Division 4 long term and most Division 4 sides would not be capable. In same way really they are not capable of winning anything bar Division 4 titles.
Look, we both agree that Division 1 sides are much more like to win an All Ireland. Therefore, if that is the aim it would in no way be beneficial for a team to get relgated. If the aim for the likes of Roscommon, Galway, Armagh (teams between 1 and 2) aim is just to make q final then let them go to Division 2 and give them ' easier' games against 'weaker' teams. They must get it spot on then when they get to Q FINAL, semi etc or they are out. History shows that is what will happen. If they stay in Division 1, they can actually afford to lose a few games and still get to q final.
But all the structural changes in the world won't make a difference. Those that want to compete must just get their house in order. Players and managers want this to go through." Look I hear you.
I guess the big thing though is right now the big incentive in the league is to get to division 1 and play the best teams to be readied for championship.
The dynamic changes in this format and maybe being in division 1 is less important.
A team coming from division 2 is at a small disadvantage to a team coming top 3 from division 1 once they hit the quarters. Otherwise 4th and 5th in division 1 will need to play 3 division 1 teams to win.
Say Mayo are in division 1 and Donegal are in division 2 are Mayo actually that much better off, I don't know.
Maybe they benefit from 7 harder fixtures, maybe it'd be bad to stay in division 2 for a prolonged period but 1 year out just doesn't really seem to me to be that big of a stress and it's why I'm worried that some of the edge is lost.
The dynamic that existed in the leagues up until now where league status is of huge importance feels diminished to me and I don't think I'm being irrational about it.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 21/10/2021 12:44:51
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I'm interested to know is Galway chairman speaking for himself or the galway board and clubs?im looking at a lot of counties and gas president coming out in support of motion b..I'd hope that all delegates voting will go the way their county wants them to vote and not be given free reign to vote however they want ..ive a feeling it's going to be very close and it's going to be hard to get 60 per cent..I also think counties will suffer with players leaving if things don't change..
CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2217 - 21/10/2021 13:17:48
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