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Replying To wexico15:  "I think this vote is far more important for div 2,3 and 4 teams. No matter what structure is in place I'd imagine at the very minimum 4 div 1 teams will make the last 8, as 1 reference point super 8s in 2019 consisted 5 teams who played in div 1 that year and 3 in div 2. Option B guarantees games for everyone at the peak time of the year for managers to properly develop their team, not play the league the best competition in winter/spring play 2 or 3 championship games and then your back to the drawing board after 1/4 or 1/3 of your panel decide the commitment ain't worth it for 2-3 summer games, to me the provincial structure is dated and frankly a hurdle to a more equitable system. Kevin O'Donovan described it perfectly intercounty Hurling, Camogie and Ladies Football and most county club championships are run in round robin and tiered systems, why should intercounty Football be different."
See does proposal B actually do this.

Was a huge problem not that there was that April club month that stuffed the league into February and March.

The league could definitely go to the end of April now and there still be time for championship coming shortly afterwards in May.

8 Teams will still be out by the first week in June in proposal B, maybe a week or 2 later than a round 1 qualifier gets played.

Your perception of what proposal B brings isn't fully lined up with the reality of it.

Is league in April May with no knockout championship for some counties better than league in March April with knockout championship to come after?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 19/10/2021 17:27:39    2386324

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Replying To Whammo86:  "See does proposal B actually do this.

Was a huge problem not that there was that April club month that stuffed the league into February and March.

The league could definitely go to the end of April now and there still be time for championship coming shortly afterwards in May.

8 Teams will still be out by the first week in June in proposal B, maybe a week or 2 later than a round 1 qualifier gets played.

Your perception of what proposal B brings isn't fully lined up with the reality of it.

Is league in April May with no knockout championship for some counties better than league in March April with knockout championship to come after?"
Referencing that teams will be done by 1st weekend of June is a bit disingenuous considering the main factor is a July all Ireland final compared to August or September looking at previous years. No matter what the championship structure is teams will be finished earlier as its starting earlier hardly rocket science.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 19/10/2021 17:59:18    2386333

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Replying To Whammo86:  "See does proposal B actually do this.

Was a huge problem not that there was that April club month that stuffed the league into February and March.

The league could definitely go to the end of April now and there still be time for championship coming shortly afterwards in May.

8 Teams will still be out by the first week in June in proposal B, maybe a week or 2 later than a round 1 qualifier gets played.

Your perception of what proposal B brings isn't fully lined up with the reality of it.

Is league in April May with no knockout championship for some counties better than league in March April with knockout championship to come after?"
We are losing too much with Option B.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5691 - 19/10/2021 18:10:43    2386337

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In the qualifiers plus Tailteann cup championship you could have a season like the following:

20th February League round 1
27th February League round 2
6th March break
13th March League round 3
20th March League round 4
27th March break
3rd April League round 5
10th April Provincial Preliminary round
17th April Break
24th April League round 6
1st May Provincial Quarterfinals
8th May Break
15th May League round 7
22nd May Provincial semifinals
29th May Qualifiers Preliminary round (if needed)
29th May Tailteann Cup round 1
5th June Provincial Finals
12th June Qualifiers Round 1 (last 16)
12th June Tailteann Cup Quarterfinals
19th June Qualifiers Round 2 (last 12)
19th June Tailteann Cup Semifinals
26th June Qualifiers Quarterfinals
3rd July Tailteann Cup Final
10th July All Ireland Semifinals
17th July Break
24th July All Ireland Final

That really isn't the terrible season that it's made out to be.

League is still feeding into championship because division 1, top 6 in division 2 and top 2 in division 3 teams get a place in the qualifiers. I don't see why proposal B is this huge game changer from the above.

The split season is way higher impact than the proposed competition changes.

I think improvement could be made, Proposal B doesn't do that significantly and has enormous flaws.

Honestly Whilst there's been a lot of weak guest on with them discussing this, some of Off The Ball's arguments are kind of propaganda. They keep talking about teams playing late into the summer with Proposal B but the earliest teams are out barely any later than what the status quo can provide.

Is the new system any better for weaker division 4 teams. They lose their first couple of games in the league section are they going to stick around for Tailteann cup.

The new system does all sort of funky rubbish to promotion in divisions 3 and 4, is that actually better for those weaker teams, does it make their leagues more or less meaningful.

Proposal B when you get down to the nitty gritty and don't just look at it as a quick overview is absolutely rubbish.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 19/10/2021 18:57:28    2386344

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https://www.otbsports.com/football/gaa-proposal-b-gallagher-1266766

Rory Gallagher's opinion on it

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 19/10/2021 19:12:05    2386348

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The whole what's the harm in trialling proposal B is silly too.

You look at the FA Cup in soccer, it was killed by United not entering in 2000 as champions. It hasn't recovered.

I think if you're to make such a drastic change with regards the provincials you have to really be sure it's worth it. Just doesn't seem like it at all for me.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 19/10/2021 19:14:54    2386350

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Replying To The_analyser:  "Not sure about expect it seems like a last straw attempt to get proposal B over the line with John Horan now looking for trial run on proposal B instead of permanent fixture and pushing it off until 2023 with the focus to iron out the glaring flaws."
Ya pure old soft talk from horan.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13774 - 19/10/2021 19:30:01    2386353

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Thanks for the stats wexico. They show very clearly that the leagues of themselves are great competitions that teams wanted to win. Those competitions are worth retaining. Option B will get rid of the leagues. Hurling has retained the leagues. The provincial championships are still a core element of the Liam McCarthy Cup. The structures in place for hurling are much superior to what is proposed in Option B. Winning the league will no longer be the imperative. Qualification for the knockout stages of the championship will be the imperative. To coin a phrase some teams will be more than happy "to take a dive" and get relegated in order to improve their chances of getting in to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire the following year. Divisions Three and Four will quickly become a desert of dead rubbers once the front runners are decided. Those front runners are more than likely to be teams who took a drop the previous season. The majority of the teams will have nothing to play for. I can't imagine those games attracting too much attention from anyone. Two lines in the newspaper and thirty seconds on the radio will be it. Unfairness will still exist. Eight of your top sixteen teams will be deprived of knockout football while all of the 16 teams ranked below them will have knockout football in one competition or another. What are the details of the Tailteann Cup? Will it be like four of the five tiers in hurling where games are played on a Saturday afternoon in front of empty stands and terraces? Option B is a deeply flawed proposition. I agree entirely with you that we need reform but Option B isn't anywhere near good enough."
This post is absolutely hilarious where do I start, you've resorted to lies. Lie no. 1 the leagues aren't gone, there's still 2 teams promoted and relegated as there's been since this league structure was introduced in 2008. Instead of being put to the bin as you claim the league the best competition of the year is enhanced played in April to June rather than Jan- March and its linked to the championship. There was never talk of getting rid of the hurling provincial because they didn't become a waste of time like arguably 3 of 4 have in football not withstanding a time when Kilkenny were streets ahead of the pack in Leinster, in football as I outlined previously a typical football year in the last decade is some brilliant football played in the league, a mundane provincial series plus qualifiers and a brilliant all ireland final and semi finals to salvage the year. Do you seriously think teams will intentionally get relegated? Cop on players would have the manager out the door in a flash if he entertained the idea, players want to improve and do you think intentionally getting relegated will do this. Lie No.2 there won't be a swell of dead rubbers in div 3, given Louth have spent 8 of the last 10 years in either div 2 or 3 it surely has crossed your mind about 2 teams been promoted and 2 relegated, agreed there will be some in div 4 but not anymore than there are in a normal national league campaign. Ofcourse Div 1 and 2 will get more attention but that's sport, that's why Man utd v Liverpool gets more attention than Norwich v Brighton or Munster v Leinster gets more attention than Zebre v Cardiff its an imperfect world. It's about meaningful games deep into the year instead of January to March been the prime time which has been the case for over 20 counties in recent campaigns, given that you've resorted to lies I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you have vested interests in all of this involved in a provincial council or something similar.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 10:12:57    2386370

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Replying To Whammo86:  "In the qualifiers plus Tailteann cup championship you could have a season like the following:

20th February League round 1
27th February League round 2
6th March break
13th March League round 3
20th March League round 4
27th March break
3rd April League round 5
10th April Provincial Preliminary round
17th April Break
24th April League round 6
1st May Provincial Quarterfinals
8th May Break
15th May League round 7
22nd May Provincial semifinals
29th May Qualifiers Preliminary round (if needed)
29th May Tailteann Cup round 1
5th June Provincial Finals
12th June Qualifiers Round 1 (last 16)
12th June Tailteann Cup Quarterfinals
19th June Qualifiers Round 2 (last 12)
19th June Tailteann Cup Semifinals
26th June Qualifiers Quarterfinals
3rd July Tailteann Cup Final
10th July All Ireland Semifinals
17th July Break
24th July All Ireland Final

That really isn't the terrible season that it's made out to be.

League is still feeding into championship because division 1, top 6 in division 2 and top 2 in division 3 teams get a place in the qualifiers. I don't see why proposal B is this huge game changer from the above.

The split season is way higher impact than the proposed competition changes.

I think improvement could be made, Proposal B doesn't do that significantly and has enormous flaws.

Honestly Whilst there's been a lot of weak guest on with them discussing this, some of Off The Ball's arguments are kind of propaganda. They keep talking about teams playing late into the summer with Proposal B but the earliest teams are out barely any later than what the status quo can provide.

Is the new system any better for weaker division 4 teams. They lose their first couple of games in the league section are they going to stick around for Tailteann cup.

The new system does all sort of funky rubbish to promotion in divisions 3 and 4, is that actually better for those weaker teams, does it make their leagues more or less meaningful.

Proposal B when you get down to the nitty gritty and don't just look at it as a quick overview is absolutely rubbish."
In what world do you think the league and championship would overlap with status quo!! There would be a 2 week gap between the league conclusion and championship starting so in that case the league would finish on April 17 with your proposal and all league dates would push forward by a month so a league starting around January 20, any you accuse other people of propaganda....

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 10:23:30    2386373

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The whole what's the harm in trialling proposal B is silly too.

You look at the FA Cup in soccer, it was killed by United not entering in 2000 as champions. It hasn't recovered.

I think if you're to make such a drastic change with regards the provincials you have to really be sure it's worth it. Just doesn't seem like it at all for me."
That's a silly comparison, FA Cup isn't a primary competition like championship, a better comparison is the super 8s which will be binned.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 10:25:34    2386374

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Option B has to be put through this weekend - wonder will a potential GPA strike happen if there isn't some sort of change?

trueblue2002 (Westmeath) - Posts: 2 - 20/10/2021 10:45:30    2386379

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Replying To wexico15:  "In what world do you think the league and championship would overlap with status quo!! There would be a 2 week gap between the league conclusion and championship starting so in that case the league would finish on April 17 with your proposal and all league dates would push forward by a month so a league starting around January 20, any you accuse other people of propaganda...."
I sort of think they'd have to run league and championship off in parallel otherwise those knocked out early in their province will be waiting around until after the provincial semifinals are finished before they can get started into the Tailteann Cup or qualifiers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 10:46:54    2386381

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Replying To wexico15:  "That's a silly comparison, FA Cup isn't a primary competition like championship, a better comparison is the super 8s which will be binned."
Not really to be honest.

Whilst the league was the more prestigious trophy the cup actually used to draw larger crowds than the equivalent games in the league.

The FA Cup final was the showpiece event of the English football year.

It was a competition that had huge amounts of history and yet after being devalued once it never really recovered.

The Premier League and increase in TV rights revenues also played a huge part in its downfall but Man United in 2000 was a big blow to the competition.

I don't love the provincials and there's work to be done to fit them in appropriately to the calendar and the Sam Maguire equation, I don't have the same loathing of them as you have.

Most of the lower counties biggest crowds will come from the provincials.

Everyone talks about the hurling system being such a success but Antrim footballers would get a bigger crowd for an Ulster first round game than the hurling McDonagh Cup final.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 10:53:36    2386384

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Replying To wexico15:  "Referencing that teams will be done by 1st weekend of June is a bit disingenuous considering the main factor is a July all Ireland final compared to August or September looking at previous years. No matter what the championship structure is teams will be finished earlier as its starting earlier hardly rocket science."
I know but where's the big win from the competition change that isn't just already there from having no April club month.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 10:55:07    2386385

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I sort of think they'd have to run league and championship off in parallel otherwise those knocked out early in their province will be waiting around until after the provincial semifinals are finished before they can get started into the Tailteann Cup or qualifiers."
This year when the belt buckles were really tightened with available weekends they didn't overlap, couldn't see it happening in any scenario.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 10:58:23    2386388

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I know but where's the big win from the competition change that isn't just already there from having no April club month."
The big win is playing the majority and most important games from April onwards instead of January to March which has been the case for 20 plus counties in recent years.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 11:25:58    2386391

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Cork, Kildare, Down and Tipp among others supporting B.
Uachtarán agus Árd Stiúrthóir to hold a press conference later today.
Their vow of silence must have ended at midnight!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 52 - 20/10/2021 11:30:22    2386394

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Replying To wexico15:  "This post is absolutely hilarious where do I start, you've resorted to lies. Lie no. 1 the leagues aren't gone, there's still 2 teams promoted and relegated as there's been since this league structure was introduced in 2008. Instead of being put to the bin as you claim the league the best competition of the year is enhanced played in April to June rather than Jan- March and its linked to the championship. There was never talk of getting rid of the hurling provincial because they didn't become a waste of time like arguably 3 of 4 have in football not withstanding a time when Kilkenny were streets ahead of the pack in Leinster, in football as I outlined previously a typical football year in the last decade is some brilliant football played in the league, a mundane provincial series plus qualifiers and a brilliant all ireland final and semi finals to salvage the year. Do you seriously think teams will intentionally get relegated? Cop on players would have the manager out the door in a flash if he entertained the idea, players want to improve and do you think intentionally getting relegated will do this. Lie No.2 there won't be a swell of dead rubbers in div 3, given Louth have spent 8 of the last 10 years in either div 2 or 3 it surely has crossed your mind about 2 teams been promoted and 2 relegated, agreed there will be some in div 4 but not anymore than there are in a normal national league campaign. Ofcourse Div 1 and 2 will get more attention but that's sport, that's why Man utd v Liverpool gets more attention than Norwich v Brighton or Munster v Leinster gets more attention than Zebre v Cardiff its an imperfect world. It's about meaningful games deep into the year instead of January to March been the prime time which has been the case for over 20 counties in recent campaigns, given that you've resorted to lies I'm genuinely starting to wonder if you have vested interests in all of this involved in a provincial council or something similar."
I didn't see any lies in what greengrass posted. There is an incentive to drop down a division to have a better chance of getting knockout football the following year. No team will ever admit to that - but it could be in the back of a players mind.

There's actually a good comparison between hurling and football in terms of what people want. A properly tiered championship structure with promotion between levels. Proposal B is not that - the 25th best team is better than the 6th best team.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 20/10/2021 11:35:36    2386397

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Replying To wexico15:  "This year when the belt buckles were really tightened with available weekends they didn't overlap, couldn't see it happening in any scenario."
I don't know I don't think it's less likely than Provincials being moved to February/March.

Even without an overlap.

The status quo Championship would see league played in March April.

Championship would take 12 weeks to run in May to July.

Teams wouldn't be out in their All Ireland/Tailteann cup first round until week 5. 7 weeks before All Ireland finals. Is the Tailteann cup in that proposal any worse than in the new one?

I'd say division 3 and 4 are actually better than in the new proposal, both do link league to championship also.

I just don't see the win unless the goal is specifically to kill the provincials.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3627 - 20/10/2021 11:37:28    2386398

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Replying To brianb:  "I didn't see any lies in what greengrass posted. There is an incentive to drop down a division to have a better chance of getting knockout football the following year. No team will ever admit to that - but it could be in the back of a players mind.

There's actually a good comparison between hurling and football in terms of what people want. A properly tiered championship structure with promotion between levels. Proposal B is not that - the 25th best team is better than the 6th best team."
So how would you feel if the Kildare footballers intentionally got relegated? Do you seriously think your new dream team management would entertain this idea, time to start living in the real world. I agree that the 6th placed div 1 team should progress and that tweak should be made but if they didn't hey they had 7 games to secure their knockout place and didn't. Interesting on your hurling comparison that's already there with the Joe Mcdonagh finalists playing the 3rd placed teams in Munster and Leinster. Also there's far more depth in football. In hurling a Lory Meagher or Nicky Rackard team wouldn't compete with Offaly, Antrim, Kerry etc. but next year Cavan in Div 4 could compete with arguably all of Div 2 and possibly 2-4 Div 1 teams.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3825 - 20/10/2021 12:13:13    2386407

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