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Upcoming Special Congress

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I see they expect proposal B to pass on Saturday and dublin John horan wants the B proposal but wants to delay it for a couple of years to give it some tweaks.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13796 - 19/10/2021 11:46:38    2386231

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Very simple tweak to Proposal B
Top 4 D1 straight to Qtr Finals, teams 5 and 6 in D1, teams 1 to 4 D2 and the D3 and D4 winners play a prelim round."
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Thats all fine and dandy and might get the majority of HS posters on board. And you end up with the top 6 Div 1 and top2 Div 2 teams (probably) in the qtrs.
But at the expense of a more competitive NFL1 summer competition - which is what the GAA want, or so it appears. If 6 of 8 Div 1 teams qualify for champo there's not as much drama - so smaller crowds and less Money!

You have to factor in what the GAA hierarchy want. Which appears to be a popular champions league format with lots of competitive meaningful summer games between the elite teams (NFL1) & MORE IMPORTANTY a complete avoidance of the Dublin dominance/ funding issue which is the main reason that averyone and his dog claims the current championship is not working.
The second part is certainly working.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 19/10/2021 12:13:35    2386236

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Maybe that is what did. Kevin O'Donovan outlined how the process worked in an interview on OTB. He has a different view though."
Maybe they did but it certainly wasn't in the open and if Proposal B is the best solution they could see when looking at all the various constraints I doubt they asked all the right questions.

I heard that interview and the key point seemed to be that every county should have a path to Sam at the start of the year. That's the rational behind the Division 3 & 4 teams being put in at the last 10 stage. Alternatively they could have a path through the provincial championships. What's wrong with that?

Having read through this thread - I think where we're heading to is an All Ireland championship based on seedings from a 1A & 1B setup; more seeding in from the Provincial Championship and the prior year Taitleann cup. This is the Joe Brolly / Sean Kelly idea. While not perfect it seems to have a lot of pros and only a few cons. I'm not sure why its not on the ballot.

We could get there via option B or from the status quo. My big fear is that once the provincial link is lost it may never be reinstated

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 116 - 19/10/2021 12:25:34    2386238

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Replying To brianb:  "But have you listened one bit to what players are looking for? Yes and I think I understand what they're looking for. More games in the summer and a better idea of the fixtures. In fairness that's what everyone wants. Proposal B does offer that but we could do so much better.

Lets take the following hypothetical example - Meath V Westmeath championship 2022

a) Meath beat Dublin in the Leinster semi-final to set up final against Westmeath. Westmeath win this and end up in the All Ireland 1/4 final against Dublin who arrive through the back door. You'll have played 3 inconsequential O'Byrne cup games; 7 league games and 3 Leinster games to get here - 13 games in total.

b) Meath finish 2nd in Division 2 and play Westmeath who finish top of Division 3. Westmeath win this and end up in the All Ireland 1/4 final against Dublin who finished 2nd in Division 1. You'll have played 4 inconsequential provincial games; 7 league games and 1 play off to get here - 12 games in total.

Put yourself in the players boots - which scenario would you prefer?

My main issue with Proposal B is that is completely demotes the provincial cups as a completion of note and that it doesn't offer a fair and properly tiered championship. I'd prefer a solution that does both of these things."
It also completely slipped undermines the status of the leagues. In effect we are losing the leagues and totally downgrading the provincial championships. Option B does nothing to redress this. It's main selling point is that everything is now championship and we'll have less hammerings. Look at this season's five hurling finals in their tiered championship. Four of those finals including the Liam McCarthy final were hammerings.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5695 - 19/10/2021 12:51:21    2386243

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Very simple tweak to Proposal B
Top 4 D1 straight to Qtr Finals, teams 5 and 6 in D1, teams 1 to 4 D2 and the D3 and D4 winners play a prelim round."
Agreed, made that suggestion here last week, possibly even have scenario where 1st and 2nd in div 1 have home advantage is their QF to give incentive to finishing as high as possible.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 19/10/2021 13:48:32    2386250

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I think this vote is far more important for div 2,3 and 4 teams. No matter what structure is in place I'd imagine at the very minimum 4 div 1 teams will make the last 8, as 1 reference point super 8s in 2019 consisted 5 teams who played in div 1 that year and 3 in div 2. Option B guarantees games for everyone at the peak time of the year for managers to properly develop their team, not play the league the best competition in winter/spring play 2 or 3 championship games and then your back to the drawing board after 1/4 or 1/3 of your panel decide the commitment ain't worth it for 2-3 summer games, to me the provincial structure is dated and frankly a hurdle to a more equitable system. Kevin O'Donovan described it perfectly intercounty Hurling, Camogie and Ladies Football and most county club championships are run in round robin and tiered systems, why should intercounty Football be different.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 19/10/2021 14:09:33    2386255

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Replying To Saynothing:  "The only unfairness in All Ireland Championship are the two provinces with 8 or less teams. Nothing unfair in Leinster when Dublin were winning all those All Irelands, they played over their quota in matches. Same as Ulster, comes down to how many games you play to get to the same gold. Straight all in knockout and hope for the luck of the draw like all competitions from club senior to under 8s."
All the Championships have Group stages in most Counties.
In Roscommon and presumably other Counties u13 is the lowest age for Championships.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 56 - 19/10/2021 14:43:12    2386261

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Very simple tweak to Proposal B
Top 4 D1 straight to Qtr Finals, teams 5 and 6 in D1, teams 1 to 4 D2 and the D3 and D4 winners play a prelim round."
Rubbish, so your saying the 2020 championship Mayo wouldn't have qualified to play , a team that went on to play in final that year.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 997 - 19/10/2021 15:10:04    2386269

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So if Proposal B was ran off this season (2021) this is who would have qualified:
Div 1: Kerry, Dublin, Donegal, Tyrone, Armagh.
Div 2: Mayo, Kildare, Clare.
Div 3: Derry.
Div 4: Antrim.

Monaghan, Galway, Roscommon, Meath, Cork, Down, Westmeath, Laois.
Their season ends after the completion of the League/Championship rounds.

Offaly, Limerick, Fermanagh, Longford, Wicklow, Cavan, Tipperary, Louth, Waterford, Wexford, Sligo, Leitrim. They enter the Tailteann Cup.

How can anyone say that's a suitable solution! Proposal B rewards teams that win against poorer opposition a chance at the All-Ireland. And teams that lose against the top teams are gone!

That's the equivalent of allowing the winners of the Intermediate & Junior Club leagues to enter the Senior Club Championship, but a club that finish low in the Senior League is out, with no championship!

Why wasn't a straight forward proposal of 4 Provincial Winners and 12 Best NFL teams into Sam Maguire put forward?
The other 16 teams into Tailteann Cup with the winner automatically qualifying for next years Sam Maguire.

minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 19/10/2021 15:16:27    2386272

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I see they expect proposal B to pass on Saturday and dublin John horan wants the B proposal but wants to delay it for a couple of years to give it some tweaks."
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Thats not what he's saying Kb1 - unless the front page HS articles is completely inaccurate.
He's saying it won't be a permanent change - instead a 2 year trial which allows tweaks to be made once the vote is passed and these tweaks to be voted on by full Congress next Feb.
But talk is cheap - it will be interesting to see if the 2 year trial is what's actually on the Clar next Saturday.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 19/10/2021 15:50:29    2386285

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Has there been any indication of when over the weekend the league championship games would be played if Proposal B was introduced? Presumably it would be 2 televised games on Saturday and 2 on Sunday, at the same time as the other 12 games are being played. The expectation is that it would almost always be Division 1 games shown on TV, with Division 2 games occasionally. How many will realistically go to the ground to watch games like Sligo v Wexford if it is fixed for the same time as Kerry v Dublin on tv?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2623 - 19/10/2021 15:56:38    2386288

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At the start of any season the goal for most county teams is to win a provincial medal. The top 5 (Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal and Tyrone) main goal is to win an all Ireland. Does prop b mean that counties such as Armagh, Cork, Derry, Roscommon, Galway, Kildare, Meath and others aim to peak in March? If division 3 and 4 teams lose their first 2 league games, why would they bother hanging around for 5 more when they could be on their way to Barbados?

97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 195 - 19/10/2021 15:58:42    2386291

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Replying To brianb:  "Maybe they did but it certainly wasn't in the open and if Proposal B is the best solution they could see when looking at all the various constraints I doubt they asked all the right questions.

I heard that interview and the key point seemed to be that every county should have a path to Sam at the start of the year. That's the rational behind the Division 3 & 4 teams being put in at the last 10 stage. Alternatively they could have a path through the provincial championships. What's wrong with that?

Having read through this thread - I think where we're heading to is an All Ireland championship based on seedings from a 1A & 1B setup; more seeding in from the Provincial Championship and the prior year Taitleann cup. This is the Joe Brolly / Sean Kelly idea. While not perfect it seems to have a lot of pros and only a few cons. I'm not sure why its not on the ballot.

We could get there via option B or from the status quo. My big fear is that once the provincial link is lost it may never be reinstated"
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......if Proposal B is the best solution they could see when looking at all the various constraints I doubt they asked all the right questions.


Maybe not from your perspective or mine for that matter but that is the elephant in the room that a lot of posters seem to ignore or fail to understand. Some posters sem to think that the idea is to help the lower level teams !!

What are they trying to achieve?
A lucrative summer elite round robin and no talk about funding or how we got to where we currently are.
If that's not what you want then obviously you think they asked the wrong questions.
Not from their perspective they didn't. And there are good argument for the "elite showcase" model.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 19/10/2021 16:02:13    2386293

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Replying To Greengrass:  "It also completely slipped undermines the status of the leagues. In effect we are losing the leagues and totally downgrading the provincial championships. Option B does nothing to redress this. It's main selling point is that everything is now championship and we'll have less hammerings. Look at this season's five hurling finals in their tiered championship. Four of those finals including the Liam McCarthy final were hammerings."
Here's a better a more relevant sample size on the last sentence, 2019 national league last league under pre covid circumstances, 29 games per division 7 rounds of 4 games plus a league final, there was 8 games in div1, 3 in div2, 7 in div 3 and 9 in div 4 won by more than 6 points so a total of 27 of 116 games won by more than 6 points. Thats just under 1 out of 4, so an average with option B that would equate to 12 of 16 games per weekend decided by less than 6 points.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 19/10/2021 16:27:22    2386300

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Rubbish, so your saying the 2020 championship Mayo wouldn't have qualified to play , a team that went on to play in final that year."
I don't like proposal B but still you've got to think that the idea behind it is that a team like Mayo would be taking the league more seriously if it's actually the championship and if they don't reach the playoffs it's because the didn't earn the right to be there.

I don't like it though because say Antrim or Derry didn't really earn the right to be there either.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 19/10/2021 16:34:34    2386307

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Replying To wexico15:  "Here's a better a more relevant sample size on the last sentence, 2019 national league last league under pre covid circumstances, 29 games per division 7 rounds of 4 games plus a league final, there was 8 games in div1, 3 in div2, 7 in div 3 and 9 in div 4 won by more than 6 points so a total of 27 of 116 games won by more than 6 points. Thats just under 1 out of 4, so an average with option B that would equate to 12 of 16 games per weekend decided by less than 6 points."
I make it that only 12 of 31 fixtures in the Provincials that season came out as greater than 6 point wins. That's a bit of a higher rate in the league but not the travesty that everyone talks about.

19 of the remaining 40 games were by more than 6 points but it's funny when you look at the games some of those were from teams that looked evenly matched on paper.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 19/10/2021 16:42:23    2386309

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League in winter/spring is lower scoring than championship too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 19/10/2021 16:43:07    2386310

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Replying To wexico15:  "Here's a better a more relevant sample size on the last sentence, 2019 national league last league under pre covid circumstances, 29 games per division 7 rounds of 4 games plus a league final, there was 8 games in div1, 3 in div2, 7 in div 3 and 9 in div 4 won by more than 6 points so a total of 27 of 116 games won by more than 6 points. Thats just under 1 out of 4, so an average with option B that would equate to 12 of 16 games per weekend decided by less than 6 points."
Thanks for the stats wexico. They show very clearly that the leagues of themselves are great competitions that teams wanted to win. Those competitions are worth retaining. Option B will get rid of the leagues. Hurling has retained the leagues. The provincial championships are still a core element of the Liam McCarthy Cup. The structures in place for hurling are much superior to what is proposed in Option B. Winning the league will no longer be the imperative. Qualification for the knockout stages of the championship will be the imperative. To coin a phrase some teams will be more than happy "to take a dive" and get relegated in order to improve their chances of getting in to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire the following year. Divisions Three and Four will quickly become a desert of dead rubbers once the front runners are decided. Those front runners are more than likely to be teams who took a drop the previous season. The majority of the teams will have nothing to play for. I can't imagine those games attracting too much attention from anyone. Two lines in the newspaper and thirty seconds on the radio will be it. Unfairness will still exist. Eight of your top sixteen teams will be deprived of knockout football while all of the 16 teams ranked below them will have knockout football in one competition or another. What are the details of the Tailteann Cup? Will it be like four of the five tiers in hurling where games are played on a Saturday afternoon in front of empty stands and terraces? Option B is a deeply flawed proposition. I agree entirely with you that we need reform but Option B isn't anywhere near good enough.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5695 - 19/10/2021 16:55:33    2386313

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Replying To Saynothing:  "The only unfairness in All Ireland Championship are the two provinces with 8 or less teams. Nothing unfair in Leinster when Dublin were winning all those All Irelands, they played over their quota in matches. Same as Ulster, comes down to how many games you play to get to the same gold. Straight all in knockout and hope for the luck of the draw like all competitions from club senior to under 8s."
This is the big crux of the argument.

My biggest gripe with Championship is the unequal structure. Proposal A addresses that but has got no traction.

The Dublin issue cannot be solved with any of the 3 proposals and that is the 2nd issue that needs resolved.

Destroying the Provincials, making it more desirable to be in Div2 than 1 if you were a Donegal, Galway or Roscommon means Proposal B is a non runner for me.

We should link all 3 competitions but weaken none of them and this can be done with a cleaner option. Jim McGuinness eluded to this before but making Ulster and Leinster a dead 8, Connacht and Munster 4 and the bottom eight sides go into Tailtean Cup means this can be achieved and the structure could be devised so every team needs to win 3 games to make Quarter final and it could be seeded by league standings for added incentives.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 174 - 19/10/2021 17:00:36    2386315

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I see they expect proposal B to pass on Saturday and dublin John horan wants the B proposal but wants to delay it for a couple of years to give it some tweaks."
Not sure about expect it seems like a last straw attempt to get proposal B over the line with John Horan now looking for trial run on proposal B instead of permanent fixture and pushing it off until 2023 with the focus to iron out the glaring flaws.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 2945 - 19/10/2021 17:12:21    2386320

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