National Forum

Future Of Leinster Championship

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I don't like Meath, and I think though that reports of their demise are over the top. Meath are on the rise, as are Kildare, with a bit of self belief and a lot of hard work, they can and will stop the Dubs in Leinster. Men of Kildare and Meath- Believe!

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2315 - 24/11/2020 22:15:08    2315024

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Replying To Pharmstrong:  "I think people are getting a bit carried away. I don't think the Leinster final was a true reflection of Leinster football. Firstly it's a one off game and Meaths kick out left them no chance. Kildare and Meath have made it to the super 8 and division 1 and had success at underage. Which shows improvement. It's unfair to judge the progress and state of football in the province on the one game a year when you play against the Dubs.

Meath and Kildare have been making steady progress over the last 4 /5 years. Yes Dublin has a big advantage in population and funding and the GAA have done brilliant in developing the game there and they were right. But a big factor is the evolution of the game in recent years such as defensive set up and the possession game. Kildare and Meath are still catching up in this department. And this has probably lead more to Dublin's domination then anything else but this will eventually right it's self.

I do think the sponsorship money Dublin are developing should be divided out to other counties. With the huge amounts becoming available to them it should be controlled centrally."
The gaa should divide money fairly and they don't but the sponsorship counties get is their own business and their to do as they like with. Yes I think there's a kneejerk reaction after the leinster final and I don't agree one bit with the narrative surrounding it like it will put Meath back for years. As a matter of fact when you get a drubbing that the time to come back fighting. Meath beat Kerry by 15 points in 01 and folk said that's Kerry gone for years. Following year they lost all ireland final by one point. In 09 Kerry hammered Dublin's startled earwigs by 19 points. It was said Dublin were going nowhere but following year were unlucky to lose to Cork in semi by one point (Cork won Sam) and a year later dubs are all ireland Champs. To become a true champion you have to know what it's like to lose. I've seen many hiding and the losers came back quickly. There is no road without a turn.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3037 - 24/11/2020 22:17:22    2315028

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Replying To centerfield:  "There will have to be rule changes to make the game less biased towards teams who have the best athletic ability. Mark a line 40 yards from the goal and have a rule that the kickout has to go 40 yards otherwise throw in by ref at the forty.All kickouts from the edge of the square. This will bring back the midfield battle and mean that counties with 2 big midfielders can compete.Going back inside your 40 with the ball should result in free in. also revert back to the 3 sub rule. The above would be a start on what needs to be done. The Dubs are basically selecting the best athletes and running teams into the ground currently."
I think a lot of rules brought in have had unintended consequences. Increasing the number of subs has led to more of a game about athletic ability and hard runners over skills. The one rule I think which has changed the games most is the kicking tee being brought in. This has allowed kickouts to be much more accurate and in turn has led to a much more practiced and less spontaneous game. (Never made sense to me that frees can be taken from ground but kickouts bare from the kicking tee).

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 24/11/2020 22:18:32    2315030

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Replying To Daith:  "You are absolutely right, they won't change ..... unless backed into a corner. A championship needs other teams to compete for it to be a championship and there is nothing HQ fears more than the loss of revenue a boycott would incur. No gate receipts, no money from Sky or GAAGO. You saw what happened in Newbridge or Nowhere, they backed down fairly quickly there and they will again. The power lies with the counties, whether or not they have the moral courage to boycott is another matter."
A lot of county boards and county managers do not appear to have moral courage

johnocarroll17 (Limerick) - Posts: 408 - 24/11/2020 22:21:08    2315032

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Replying To PatdeB16:  "I suggested this a few years back. The idea being lads in Dublin could declare for their parents/grand-parents county of origin. I also suggested that any player would have to give his adopted county a commitment for at least two seasons. I mentioned to a GAA man from Wicklow.....well, he wasn't having any of it. His argument was that you could have 10 to 12 southside Dubs drafted into a Wicklow team with only 5 to 7 true Wicklow men lining out, and that would do nothing for all those who train with the county squad year after year, only to be replaced with blow-ins! His solution was financial investment in the weaker counties, and of course splitting Dublin in four (not the usual two). It's your population advantage, he said

All very well, I pointed out, if investment was the only problem, how come Mayo have yet to win an All-Ireland, and if population was an issue, I joked; Then London and New York should be competing for All-Ireland titles every year too! ....I don't think he saw the joke!!"
Yes Pat. A good idea. At the moment you can declare for your parents county but yes they should allow grandparent also. Maybe limit it to max of 3 players. Maybe Brian Fenton can declare for his Dad s County of the Kingdom (I wish). In hurling recently the weaker teams were allowed one or two players to declare that had no ties to the county. It was to promote hurling amongst the weaker counties. We got an ex Clare player Pa Kelly for a few years who was a benefit.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3037 - 24/11/2020 22:24:44    2315034

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Replying To galwayford:  "I don't like Meath, and I think though that reports of their demise are over the top. Meath are on the rise, as are Kildare, with a bit of self belief and a lot of hard work, they can and will stop the Dubs in Leinster. Men of Kildare and Meath- Believe!"
I hope you are right

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 24/11/2020 22:30:22    2315037

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Very well put together Username. I know where you ré coming from with Kildare alright. Croke lark was like a home venue for them in Micko s time but I do get the "Newbridge or nowhere" thing. Mayo had become very familiar with Croker and much more so than Kildare and it would have been advantagous to Mayo more so than Kildare. Also I think they were upset the way the gaa promised them home venue if they came out of hat first but then tried to bully them. You are also right about the funds being cut. Actually when Donegal objected about the super 8 s that's why it was voted to let Dubs play in Croker and the extra money would be given to counties like Antrim etc. On the corporate and premium the big companies just give the tickets to clients etc but not sure it matters who is playing although the more events and games the better. I think we will see Dublin out of Croker more often from now on but people might feel different when the takings are down. As the old saying goes be careful what you wish for."
I think it's become transparently obvious Mick, the GAA crossed the rubicon with the the 2 S8 games, it was really wrong.

I've done a lot of looking into Dublin perceived advantages particularly finance and would argue a few accusations that are thrown at us, but there are to many games for Dublin in Croker, the S8 thing is wrong plain and simple. But I think you have the right of it, it's the Leinster council and GAA organising venues, I think Dublin fans and players world be glasnost playing more games outside Croke Park.

This team will go down as greats and legends of the game, how brilliant would it be to bring them around the country and let different counties watch their own against them, would be wonderful. I go to all the league game and their is a real buzz when the Dubs hit town, in those tight stadiums you can breath on the necks of the players and be within arms reach of Titans. Be wonderful for GAA.

Then the civic aspect, use Dublin, Newbridge, Navan, Casement, are all looking for funds bring them to these grounds raise money. PUC is in a hole financially, if Cork played Dublin down there I'd be there in a shot, mad for a trip down there. Point being decentralisation of Dublin can be good to locally where funds are needed. Obviously the overall pot would be down, but the GAA community might be closer.

As for Leinster, I'd bin it and the provinces. I lived through Leinsters best years, they were great, but it's over. The Leinster teams give out about Dublin, but if they are being honest they can't compete nationally either, if Dublin don't eat them another shark will. No point having Dublin in with these teams. Yet there was vote put to the Leinster council last year with Dublin getting a by to the semi, every county in Leinster voted against it - seems like a serious disconnect between supporters and their county boards. Sad thing is if it was a choice between Dublin and the rest of the Leinster teams, I'm not quite sure the Leinster Council or the GAA would pick the rest of Leinster - scary isn't it.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4273 - 24/11/2020 22:40:31    2315044

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Replying To Pharmstrong:  "I think people are getting a bit carried away. I don't think the Leinster final was a true reflection of Leinster football. Firstly it's a one off game and Meaths kick out left them no chance. Kildare and Meath have made it to the super 8 and division 1 and had success at underage. Which shows improvement. It's unfair to judge the progress and state of football in the province on the one game a year when you play against the Dubs.

Meath and Kildare have been making steady progress over the last 4 /5 years. Yes Dublin has a big advantage in population and funding and the GAA have done brilliant in developing the game there and they were right. But a big factor is the evolution of the game in recent years such as defensive set up and the possession game. Kildare and Meath are still catching up in this department. And this has probably lead more to Dublin's domination then anything else but this will eventually right it's self.

I do think the sponsorship money Dublin are developing should be divided out to other counties. With the huge amounts becoming available to them it should be controlled centrally."
I completely agree. Redistribute half of what a county makes above the average sponsorship amount. They still get the benefit of making more than the rest but it's dampened.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 24/11/2020 22:41:05    2315045

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "Very well put together Username. I know where you ré coming from with Kildare alright. Croke lark was like a home venue for them in Micko s time but I do get the "Newbridge or nowhere" thing. Mayo had become very familiar with Croker and much more so than Kildare and it would have been advantagous to Mayo more so than Kildare. Also I think they were upset the way the gaa promised them home venue if they came out of hat first but then tried to bully them. You are also right about the funds being cut. Actually when Donegal objected about the super 8 s that's why it was voted to let Dubs play in Croker and the extra money would be given to counties like Antrim etc. On the corporate and premium the big companies just give the tickets to clients etc but not sure it matters who is playing although the more events and games the better. I think we will see Dublin out of Croker more often from now on but people might feel different when the takings are down. As the old saying goes be careful what you wish for."
In fairness things have moved on a lot from those times. Dublin have more games, way out number opposition fans, have a terrace for their own for fans, when Cluxton started doing his kickout thing even had ball boys set up to get the balls back to him quicker. Hear on this site that different rules apply to them for example in terms of warmdowns.
(are they allowed to train there?)
What Dublin have and Meath/ Kildare had years ago was not exactly the same thing.
Another thing is the huge Croke Park pitch suits better conditioned teams. Dublin to most look the best conditioned team in the GAA.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 24/11/2020 22:45:44    2315047

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "If Dublin are to be split now we would most likely be looking at the current administrative counties that replaced the traditional county Dublin for local government in the 1990's (Fingal/ Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown/ South Dublin are actually counties now where as dividing Dublin into north and south would not be based on actual counties). Only thing about this is what you would do with the city council area ?.
Originally the GAA got the idea if having a county championship from the local government county boundaries of the time."
Dublin City Council is the home of the current county Champs. Vinnies, Na Fianna, OPER etc all city clubs.

DLRD area would have the least amount of clubs I reckon. 5 or 6 maybe? Not sure where the boundaries are to be honest, everyone knows where they themselves live but no one really knows where the boundaries begin and end really.

I could see a split happening at some stage but it'd be very difficult and would need to be in conjunction with amalgamations as well. If we're going to do something it'll have to be done right. We either play as the traditional counties or we don't.

Spliting Dublin North / South might make more sense as there is a little bit more of an indenitity to it but it's actually quite tenuous in comparison to all other counties. A split could take an awful long time to have 2 strong teams in my opinion because most Dublin GAA players/supporters would have very little interest in playing for/supporting these new teams. I would likely take successive waves of migration to the city and county until it'd take hold.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13493 - 24/11/2020 23:05:47    2315053

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Just with regard to the funding aspect of things. Wouldn't it be great if the GAA could develop a similar strategy to help Antrim in the same way that they have helped Dublin over the last few years. Even if half of the population don't participate in GAA, that still leaves about 300k people in Antrim who are potentially interested in gaa. Would be great to see a strong Antrim in both football and hurling.

11jm11 (Kildare) - Posts: 347 - 24/11/2020 23:10:00    2315055

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Games Developement funding 2007-18:
Dublin 18m - Rest of Leinster 10m

Dublin have won 10 Leinsters in a row, 16 of the last 20.

Dublins last 5 Leinster finas were won by 21 pts, 16pts, 18pts, 9pts, 15pts.

But Pharmstrong and Galwayford reckon this will even itself out, it's not a fair reflection on Leinster and we just have to believe in ourselves and work harder.

Daith (Kildare) - Posts: 1171 - 24/11/2020 23:12:49    2315056

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "If Dublin are to be split now we would most likely be looking at the current administrative counties that replaced the traditional county Dublin for local government in the 1990's (Fingal/ Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown/ South Dublin are actually counties now where as dividing Dublin into north and south would not be based on actual counties). Only thing about this is what you would do with the city council area ?.
Originally the GAA got the idea if having a county championship from the local government county boundaries of the time."
Should each team represent a 'more or less' equal number of citizens or GAA players ? A team for each Election Constituency maybe ? Perhaps add some B and C teams as well and start with a Rd of 64 (or 48) in AIC and 8x8 or 6x8 in NFL ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 25/11/2020 03:38:34    2315078

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Replying To Pharmstrong:  "I think people are getting a bit carried away. I don't think the Leinster final was a true reflection of Leinster football. Firstly it's a one off game and Meaths kick out left them no chance. Kildare and Meath have made it to the super 8 and division 1 and had success at underage. Which shows improvement. It's unfair to judge the progress and state of football in the province on the one game a year when you play against the Dubs.

Meath and Kildare have been making steady progress over the last 4 /5 years. Yes Dublin has a big advantage in population and funding and the GAA have done brilliant in developing the game there and they were right. But a big factor is the evolution of the game in recent years such as defensive set up and the possession game. Kildare and Meath are still catching up in this department. And this has probably lead more to Dublin's domination then anything else but this will eventually right it's self.

I do think the sponsorship money Dublin are developing should be divided out to other counties. With the huge amounts becoming available to them it should be controlled centrally."
It wasn't a one off game. Meath have been tossed aside two years in a row. Dublin hammer every team in Leinster by 10 points or more. Sponsorship money shouldn't be pooled. It should be balanced against what they receive from central council. Equalisation payments.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 25/11/2020 03:41:37    2315079

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "I sadly believe that if it comes down to Dublin v the rest of the country the GAA top brass will back the Dubs every time. Dublin bring in a lot of revenue, the population is there and the hierarchy won't want to disrupt or annoy their cash cow. I honestly think Croke Park will plough on regardless and take the other counties for granted. If there's sufficient funding coming in from Dublin to fund their salaries and keep their expenses rolling in the GAA will be happy to carry on. They can't and won't do anything to anger Dublin or threaten their own positions. If it means the Leinster Championship falls by the wayside and the All Ireland remains the annual Dublin Coronation then so be it. They'll throw a few crumbs and baubles from the top table every so often but it'll be a case of "Stop whinging, isn't Dublin's success wonderful for us all"."
100%, people used to give out about us winning but at least we were beatable as has been shown through the years and even this year.

The dubs won't go into decline like thier posters say.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 25/11/2020 07:54:46    2315085

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Replying To TheUsername:  "You'd be surprised at the amount of players from other counties who live in walking distance of Drumcondra, I was at a BBQ precovid of a prominent county footballer (non Dub) who played in many All Ireland finals who had just moved in in Drumcondra.

Mad thing is they often aren't allowed to stay at home before a game, often stay the night in the hotel to be with the team.

Yet same player isn't playing at home. I'm also thinking of a few teams, who go on the raz once knocked out in Dublin because the majority of the players are living up here.

If Dublin are at home in Croker, many are very familiar with it and have set up camp in Dublin, it's like if I was living in Castlebar, would I feel unfamiliar with McHale probably not.

When you look at Leinster teams in particular a huge deal is made about playing away, the Newbridge or No where stuff. Personally I find it very hypocritical, Kildare were content to play all their games under Micko in Croker as were Meath during their successful years, the last time they got to a final All their games were played in Croker. I think that was unfair in the same vein that Dublin should play more games outside Croker, that's why I can't take the Leinster stuff seriously, Kildare and Meath did the same thing and have short memories.

The other piece that relates to Leinster, is for Kildare and Meath in particular, their are parts of Kildare and Meath that you would be Croker quicker then parts of Dublin, playing away - I don't really think so, both counties empty 9-5 Mon - Fri and fill Dublin.

But I agree with your point of view in general, the GAA want Dublin in Croke Park, it's a massive money spinner. I'd personally prefer more away games, I think the players would to. But premium seats, corporate boxes, hospitality, gate receipts are all sold with the Dublin market and this Dublin team on the ticket.

If our country cousins in Leinster are going to boycott, I'd encourage them to do it so we can have more away games, their funds might be cut annually, but I think everyone would like more Dublin games outside of Croker.

Not sure the Leinster counties & council or GAA for that mater have the bottle though."
Good post Username; whilst I wouldn't agree the non Dublin county players living in Drumcombra gives them an advantage in regards to Croke Park or playing at "home" your 100% correct about Kildare and Meath.

I recall the sea of white or green jerseys/flags etc on Hill 16 and right around Croke Park during Meath and Kildare's glory days - it was a great sight. To be fair there was nowhere else to cater for the tens of thousands of fanatical supporters that followed them.

Champions from the other three provinces often said how difficult the Leinster champions were to beat in Croke Park - especially if one of those teams bridged a big gap and had very little experience of Croke Park; especially a Croke Park with 80K - the Leinster teams were used to it; usually playing all their championship games in it.

Croke Park due to it's geography has always benefited the Leinster teams; the Leinster council aren't going to say no to revenue, be that Meath, Kildare or Dublin almost filling Croker themselves if they're being successful.

In saying all of this Dublin and Croke Park has become a problem; back in those days national league games, training sessions after games, extensive warm downs on the pitch, the use of the same changing room game after game weren't allowed. There is no doubt Leinster benefit more than most in regards Croke Park but there is also very little doubt Dublin's county team have abandoned Parnell Park and have very much made Croke Park their home - in all the wise decisions made by Dublin GAA over the last 20 years the "spring series" whilst about revenue would have also been about football in so much as making Croke Park familar to new players early.

I think the GAA need to look at the issue because the fact other counties don't want to play in Croke Park is a problem. Croke Park is owned by every GAA club,member, county, province, body throughout Ireland and beyond, nobody should have the impression they're visiting Dublin's home ground - it's the GAA's home.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 943 - 25/11/2020 10:09:09    2315096

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "100%, people used to give out about us winning but at least we were beatable as has been shown through the years and even this year.

The dubs won't go into decline like thier posters say."
kerry wont go into decline
Like there posters ignore
81 Munster titles
37 All Irelands

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2823 - 25/11/2020 10:28:41    2315102

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Kerry won 27 titles in 32 years

Kerry have won 81 Munster titles

They won 8 in a row twice

That is total dominance

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2823 - 25/11/2020 10:37:14    2315105

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The Leinster Championship is a competition that consists of teams located within the Province. When you decide on such a structure, you have to accept that long term dominance is possible. Anything is possible really. One thing your not guaranteed is a competition that has the best chance of being competitive.

If everything Dublin has going for it guarantees success then why have the Cork hurlers only competed in one All-Ireland over the last 15 years? How have the English International soccer team failed to compete in a major Tournament final since 1966. Why are Manchester City currently mid-table in the Premier League?

I get it that people are sick to death of the Dubs. Dominance is never good in any sport. Not sure people actually realise that for most of their All-Ireland wins, the margin was pretty narrow which would suggest the gap isn't as wide as people think.

Mentality in Sport is everything

The Victim will always ask the question "Why"
The survivor will ask the question "How"
The Thriving mentality will ask "What"
Mastery will ask "Who"

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1297 - 25/11/2020 10:47:16    2315106

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Replying To superbluedub:  "Kerry won 27 titles in 32 years

Kerry have won 81 Munster titles

They won 8 in a row twice

That is total dominance"
But sure according to some of your fellow Dubs none of them even count.

Dublin have now won 15 of the last 16 Leinster titles. They've won 4, 5 and 6 in a row at different stages also. Wexford and Kildare are the only other county to win more 4 in a row both happening over 90years old with Kildare and over 100 with Wexford.

Seeing as you want to bring up stats

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 985 - 25/11/2020 10:53:24    2315109

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