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This double elimination would be a very regressive move. It is just reformatting the old qualifiers which were only recently dispensed of . It brings the number of games a team would be guaranteed from 3 down to 2. It reduces the overall number of games from 28[ when the PQFs are included ] down to 20 with the subsequent loss in revenue which 8 games would generate. Of the 20 games in the double elimination just 8 are truly k.o -the other 12 are second chance games. In fact the last round[ a 4 game k.o] is just the equivalent of the current PQFs. So taking away that last round then just 4 out of 16 games are truly k.o. The phase -rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind in relation to this double elimination formula and we will be back again in a year or so looking at some other change as this definitely is not the answer. This is the Football Format Changes Discussion page . Notice how there is no Hurling equivalent page. I wonder why this is! edu (Mayo) - Posts: 65 - 16/06/2024 19:26:27 2551994 Link
Replying To edu: "This double elimination would be a very regressive move. It is just reformatting the old qualifiers which were only recently dispensed of . It brings the number of games a team would be guaranteed from 3 down to 2. It reduces the overall number of games from 28[ when the PQFs are included down to 20 with the subsequent loss in revenue which 8 games would generate. Of the 20 games in the double elimination just 8 are truly k.o -the other 12 are second chance games. In fact the last round[ a 4 game k.o] is just the equivalent of the current PQFs. So taking away that last round then just 4 out of 16 games are truly k.o. The phase -rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind in relation to this double elimination formula and we will be back again in a year or so looking at some other change as this definitely is not the answer. This is the Football Format Changes Discussion page . Notice how there is no Hurling equivalent page. I wonder why this is!"]Some people have asked for only 2 teams qualifying from the groups of 4, with the Round 1 winners playing each other in Round 2. Double elimination is more or less that same schedule. The only major difference is that the group winner versus eliminated team dead rubber doesn't exist. The eliminated county is out after two losses. The qualified county after two wins from two has a week off for the quarter-finals. The enjoyment of this weekend's action is retained as Round 2A and 2B will bring that drama with out requiring two monotonous rounds to get to that stage. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8322 - 16/06/2024 22:37:06 2552076 Link
Replying To edu: "This double elimination would be a very regressive move. It is just reformatting the old qualifiers which were only recently dispensed of . It brings the number of games a team would be guaranteed from 3 down to 2. It reduces the overall number of games from 28[ when the PQFs are included down to 20 with the subsequent loss in revenue which 8 games would generate. Of the 20 games in the double elimination just 8 are truly k.o -the other 12 are second chance games. In fact the last round[ a 4 game k.o] is just the equivalent of the current PQFs. So taking away that last round then just 4 out of 16 games are truly k.o. The phase -rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind in relation to this double elimination formula and we will be back again in a year or so looking at some other change as this definitely is not the answer. This is the Football Format Changes Discussion page . Notice how there is no Hurling equivalent page. I wonder why this is!"]Definitely a regressive move that the powers that be will not make. Had the double elimination in my own county for a number of years. Thankfully it was got rid of 4 or 5 years ago and replaced with a Round Robin system with 3 teams from each group going into the knock out. Has led to a great competition. There of course will be the old fogeys who want to take that regressive step. Some of them on this forum who are stuck in the past and want all of us there with them. Misery loves company as the saying goes. Players are happy, true fans are happy and now on with the rest of the championship. ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 391 - 17/06/2024 00:08:43 2552108 Link
Another round of this sleep inducing championship to get through before we see anything that resembles a competition….. thankfully the powers that be can see it's a dead duck system and are already working on a way of improving the competition…. The paltry attendance figures have forced their hand as it's now embarrassing to see our main sporting event being played in near empty stadiums…. Hopefully change is imminent ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3055 - 17/06/2024 10:27:05 2552223 Link
Thankfully the right man is in charge now who gets the meaning of championship and can stop the All Ireland Series dwindling deeper into the mud, no more death by a thousand cuts football matches. https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0617/1455104-burns-football-championship-change-likely-next-season/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR10CjsAXH7onkVrXoMCDUjzBB56uYcCl8Y2JTXc47mOoG61IL1oavEBRVc_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRlcw macca999 (Fermanagh) - Posts: 1143 - 17/06/2024 10:40:58 2552231 Link
The following is a novel and fresh way of organizing the 16 team A.I.C group stage .It still has the 4 groups of 4.The k.o stage does though lose 2 PQFs and one QF. That is the downside. A.I.C GROUP STAGE CHAMPIONS GROUP [involving the 4 provincial winners] GROUPS 1 2 3 [involving 12 0ther teams -seeded draw based on N.L positions] QUALIFICATIOIN FOR K.O CRITERIA CHAMPIONS GROUP Winner---- A.I.C. S.F Runner up----A.I.C Q.F Third---- A.I.C P.Q.F [home] Fourth---- A.I.C P.Q.F.[ away] GROUP 1 2 3 Winners ---- A.I.C . Q.F Best R.U---- A.I.C. P.Q.F[home] 2 Best R.U---- A.I.C . P.Q.F [away] All others---- OUT Runners up based[ranked] on N.L positions . K.O. STAGE P.Q.F [2 games] Champions Group Third v 2 best R.U Group 1/2/3 Best R.U Group 1/2/3 v Champions Group Fourth Q.F [3 games] Champions Group R.U Winners Groups 1/2/3 2 P.Q.F Winners SEMI FINALS Champions group winner 3 Q.F Winners Basically the provincial champions are playing for a semi final place and each champion is guaranteed a place in the k.o stages. The Champions group would almost certainly have an annual Dublin v Kerry encounter which is a fixture that rarely happens before the closing stages of the A.I.C. Groups 1/2/3 would certainly have plenty of jeopardy with just 5 out of 12 teams qualifying edu (Mayo) - Posts: 65 - 17/06/2024 11:27:01 2552261 Link
Replying To edu: "The following is a novel and fresh way of organizing the 16 team A.I.C group stage .It still has the 4 groups of 4.The k.o stage does though lose 2 PQFs and one QF. That is the downside. A.I.C GROUP STAGE CHAMPIONS GROUP [involving the 4 provincial winners GROUPS 1 2 3 [involving 12 0ther teams -seeded draw based on N.L positions] QUALIFICATIOIN FOR K.O CRITERIA CHAMPIONS GROUP Winner---- A.I.C. S.F Runner up----A.I.C Q.F Third---- A.I.C P.Q.F [home] Fourth---- A.I.C P.Q.F.[ away] GROUP 1 2 3 Winners ---- A.I.C . Q.F Best R.U---- A.I.C. P.Q.F[home] 2 Best R.U---- A.I.C . P.Q.F [away] All others---- OUT Runners up based[ranked] on N.L positions . K.O. STAGE P.Q.F [2 games] Champions Group Third v 2 best R.U Group 1/2/3 Best R.U Group 1/2/3 v Champions Group Fourth Q.F [3 games] Champions Group R.U Winners Groups 1/2/3 2 P.Q.F Winners SEMI FINALS Champions group winner 3 Q.F Winners Basically the provincial champions are playing for a semi final place and each champion is guaranteed a place in the k.o stages. The Champions group would almost certainly have an annual Dublin v Kerry encounter which is a fixture that rarely happens before the closing stages of the A.I.C. Groups 1/2/3 would certainly have plenty of jeopardy with just 5 out of 12 teams qualifying"]Not awful at all but I fear a phoney war. Is Dublin v Kerry going to reveal all their bags of tricks in a group match to avoid one extra game but potentially give opposition the blueprint to beat you when it matters? Its a very GAA thing but could see issues here. One thing is for certain. Get Dublin out of Croke Park and down the country. Yesterdays game was very enjoyable albeit didnt have a do or die on the line. 16K in Hyde going nuts had a better feel than even what 40-50K in Croke Park would feel like never mind the pitiful numbers the Dubs have been attracting in recent games. shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 286 - 17/06/2024 11:39:46 2552272 Link
Burns was making the point that the league is for incremental improvement. The championship needs more jeopardy. Guaranteeing all counties at least two games in the All-Ireland championship should be fair enough. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8322 - 17/06/2024 12:46:12 2552314 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Burns was making the point that the league is for incremental improvement. The championship needs more jeopardy. Guaranteeing all counties at least two games in the All-Ireland championship should be fair enough." I get what he's trying to say - but the league isn't for incremental improvement - it's for qualification for the Sam Maguire cup. There's more jeopardy at the bottom of division 2 at the moment than anywhere else! brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 17/06/2024 13:40:29 2552344 Link
Get rid of group stages altogether. In this current format, a team can lose three championship matches and win the All Ireland. In National league, if you lose 3 matches you would be struggling to avoid relegation. The format which is been envisaged is similar to the old qualifier system. 16 teams. R1 - 8 Matches (Perhaps provisional finalists have home advantage) R2A - (Winners from R1 OPEN Draw with winners progressing to QF R2B - (Losers of R1, again OPEN draw with winners progressing to QF QF - Winners of 2A Vs Winners of 2B SF & F R2A & 2B can be played over the same weekend. This format requires 5 match days instead of 7 currently. All matches would have knockout status with 2 strikes and you are out. Player welfare would be a benefit of proposed format. I understand that there is no advantage to winning provisional finals but with lopsided nature of some provinces, I think there can be no ideal solution. Jack L (None) - Posts: 3141 - 17/06/2024 13:58:38 2552356 Link
Here's a suggestion. People say the group stages drag on etc. and there's not enough jeopardy in the championship. Maybe we don't need a group stage. Consider this format for the 16 teams in the Sam Maguire competition: Round 1: the 8 teams that didn't make the provincial finals. For this year, that's Derry, Tyrone, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork, Meath, and Westmeath. Could be open draw, seeded, whatever. Venues, again, whatever. These games should take place around the same time as the provincial finals, although that might prove a broadcasting challenge. Round 2: the four provincial runners up and the four round 1 winners. Again, it may or may not be seeded. And it shouldn't necessarily be the case that the provincial runner ups should be kept apart. Quarterfinals: round 2 winners plus the four provincial champions, with the provincial champions kept apart. The semifinals could go back to the traditional provincial rota if you're into tradition. For 2024, I think that would have been Connacht vs Leinster and Ulster vs Munster. If you wanted to avoid provincial final match-ups being repeated at this stage, you could put, say, Mayo on the opposite side of the quarter final draw to Galway, i.e. against the Ulster or Munster champions. The Tailteann Cup can keep its group stage so that those less successful teams can continue to have a minimum guaranteed number of games. Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1126 - 17/06/2024 14:19:11 2552376 Link
Replying To brianb: "I get what he's trying to say - but the league isn't for incremental improvement - it's for qualification for the Sam Maguire cup. There's more jeopardy at the bottom of division 2 at the moment than anywhere else!" I think he's saying that the league is how teams should aim to improve and championship should just be about determining the winner. I strongly believe that's a bad approach. You can't improve without something real being on the line. The secondary competition doesn't have the same cut a thrust of the primary competition and so there will always be that limit to how much I can be used to develop teams. Don't think it's the only worrying thing he said in that interview to be honest regarding round robins and the club game needing to address their competitions to accommodate a later end date for the All Ireland. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4331 - 17/06/2024 14:33:52 2552389 Link
Maybe he should stay away from microphones for a while. His stunt to move the Tailteann semis at 6 days notice didn't work. Sadly 57% voted for it. I wouldn't be totally against the "Sigerson" system he's pushing but it seems he wants it passed by December and introduced next year. The current system was for 3 years but again was rushed in. These rushed jobs don't always work out very well. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1975 - 17/06/2024 15:54:48 2552413 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I'm subscribed to the Irish Independent as they carry the Kerry news and sport. The Examiner report was one of the three a week I can read! The final round of the group stage brought great excitement again. The bad press is because crowds were poor, 3 get out of the group and it took two monotonous rounds to get to this stage. The double elimination will mean getting to the same round as this weekend after just one round." Well, two rounds - Rd 2B? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 17/06/2024 16:16:12 2552418 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I'm subscribed to the Irish Independent as they carry the Kerry news and sport. The Examiner report was one of the three a week I can read! The final round of the group stage brought great excitement again. The bad press is because crowds were poor, 3 get out of the group and it took two monotonous rounds to get to this stage. The double elimination will mean getting to the same round as this weekend after just one round." Yes, indeed - it's great we get such drama in the 3rd group games - even when the likes of Dublin-Mayo are only playing for a bye week. I also subscribe to the Indo and sister publications. You might have read Colm Keys column on June 5 - making the argument of having a combined 16-team Tier 1 table from the four-team groups? - he was arguing a 'top 10' might be better - with the middle 4 of 16 contesting Prelim QF ties before the winners join the top 6 in QFs. All said, maybe the "double elimination" idea may be best and I can see it getting overwhelming support. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 17/06/2024 16:31:37 2552425 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I think he's saying that the league is how teams should aim to improve and championship should just be about determining the winner. I strongly believe that's a bad approach. You can't improve without something real being on the line. The secondary competition doesn't have the same cut a thrust of the primary competition and so there will always be that limit to how much I can be used to develop teams. Don't think it's the only worrying thing he said in that interview to be honest regarding round robins and the club game needing to address their competitions to accommodate a later end date for the All Ireland." It comes back to a master fixtures list and accepting that top players can have commitments to club, county and college. It shouldn't be a case of the club game giving something to the county game - they should be built around each other and supporting each other. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 17/06/2024 16:37:41 2552431 Link
Replying To Jack L: "Get rid of group stages altogether. In this current format, a team can lose three championship matches and win the All Ireland. In National league, if you lose 3 matches you would be struggling to avoid relegation. The format which is been envisaged is similar to the old qualifier system. 16 teams. R1 - 8 Matches (Perhaps provisional finalists have home advantage) R2A - (Winners from R1 OPEN Draw with winners progressing to QF R2B - (Losers of R1, again OPEN draw with winners progressing to QF QF - Winners of 2A Vs Winners of 2B SF & F R2A & 2B can be played over the same weekend. This format requires 5 match days instead of 7 currently. All matches would have knockout status with 2 strikes and you are out. Player welfare would be a benefit of proposed format. I understand that there is no advantage to winning provisional finals but with lopsided nature of some provinces, I think there can be no ideal solution." There is an advantage of provincial winners are drawn against Seed 4s. Round 1 should be Seed 1 v Seed 4 and Seed 2 v Seed 3. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8322 - 17/06/2024 16:38:36 2552432 Link
Lads where is the advantage for the provincial champions aside from a home game against the 3rd seeds? Okay fair play you avoid the other provincial champions but we have situation now where (for example) Galway have played 6, won 5 and drew 1 playing in the same round and jeopardy as Derry who have played 4, lost 3 and won 1. Monaghan - played 4, lost 2, drew 1 and won 1 etc etc. Just one idea.. If it goes to head to head after the 3rd round of games could they go with provincial champions before score difference? (Would have done us nicely!!) Fully accept we should have closed out our side of the bargain yesterday and tbh I would not have given all this a second thought if we closed it out :D but we need to do more to retain the value of a provincial winners medal. Yeah, I am probably clutching at straws to support my own misery today!!! ahsure. (Galway) - Posts: 1632 - 17/06/2024 17:22:38 2552453 Link
Replying To ORIELMAN85: " Replying To edu: "This double elimination would be a very regressive move. It is just reformatting the old qualifiers which were only recently dispensed of . It brings the number of games a team would be guaranteed from 3 down to 2. It reduces the overall number of games from 28[ when the PQFs are included down to 20 with the subsequent loss in revenue which 8 games would generate. Of the 20 games in the double elimination just 8 are truly k.o -the other 12 are second chance games. In fact the last round[ a 4 game k.o is just the equivalent of the current PQFs. So taking away that last round then just 4 out of 16 games are truly k.o. The phase -rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind in relation to this double elimination formula and we will be back again in a year or so looking at some other change as this definitely is not the answer. This is the Football Format Changes Discussion page . Notice how there is no Hurling equivalent page. I wonder why this is!"]Definitely a regressive move that the powers that be will not make. Had the double elimination in my own county for a number of years. Thankfully it was got rid of 4 or 5 years ago and replaced with a Round Robin system with 3 teams from each group going into the knock out. Has led to a great competition. There of course will be the old fogeys who want to take that regressive step. Some of them on this forum who are stuck in the past and want all of us there with them. Misery loves company as the saying goes. Players are happy, true fans are happy and now on with the rest of the championship."]So much for your " everyone is happy " theory… As I said change on the way… hopefully as soon as next year as Jarlath Burns wants this current ridiculous championship structure dumped… A real football man who knows when something just makes no sense as opposed to you who knows nothing about the game whatsoever…. ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3055 - 17/06/2024 22:08:36 2552535 Link
Replying To ahsure.: "Lads where is the advantage for the provincial champions aside from a home game against the 3rd seeds? Okay fair play you avoid the other provincial champions but we have situation now where (for example) Galway have played 6, won 5 and drew 1 playing in the same round and jeopardy as Derry who have played 4, lost 3 and won 1. Monaghan - played 4, lost 2, drew 1 and won 1 etc etc. Just one idea.. If it goes to head to head after the 3rd round of games could they go with provincial champions before score difference? (Would have done us nicely!!) Fully accept we should have closed out our side of the bargain yesterday and tbh I would not have given all this a second thought if we closed it out :D but we need to do more to retain the value of a provincial winners medal. Yeah, I am probably clutching at straws to support my own misery today!!!" The protection of provincial winners is what keeps Dublin and Kerry on top. Due to their lop sided provinces, they ened up seeded all the way through to an all Ireland q final and are guaranteed not to play each other until semi finals. Any format which continues that injustice isn't fit for purpose and the Connacht and Ulster champions don't get the same advantages because their local rivals arent afraid of them. The format should be 6 groups of 3, Provincial winners, league winners and defending champions seeded No1 - if there is a double up then the next best from the league gets seeded Seed 2 plays seed 3 first, then seed 1 plays the winner, with seed 1 playing the loser of first game in the last match. The winners of each group go through plus the two best placed runner ups tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 18/06/2024 04:08:54 2552565 Link