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Carlow GAA thread

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Replying To WEXILE:  "This! Maybe the bottom 2 teams play off for relegation. So the relegated team finished bottom of group and loses a playoff. Can't have any complaints.

The only fly in the ointment would be if the perceived weaker team decides to just focus on that relegation playoff and essentially just goes through the.motions versus the Kilkenny and Galways.

Did Antrim do that this year away from home ?"
Agree there should be relegation play offs. I was thinking relegation semi finals and final myself tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 20/05/2024 12:22:08    2545837

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Replying To CARPS:  "If Leix or Offaly are good enough to put it up to Wexford or Dublin, all they have to do is win the Joe Mac. Then they will get their chance.

If you make it 8 teams, what will happen is that weaker sides will just wait for the relegation playoffs, and the games against the other relegation candidate.

You're right, it seems like Antrim did a bit of that this year. I also think Carlow probably had a similar mental feeling after Wexford's blistering start yesterday.

"Well, we won't win this now, so let's keep ourselves for next week."

Look at second half yesterday, both sides dropped intensity. And instead of chasing the game Carlow just seemed to accept it."
Will James Doyle be fit?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 20/05/2024 13:25:42    2545861

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's true too. But whoever loses in Corrigan Park next week, how is it helping developing hurling there when they are relegated?"
And that there is thr point. How is it helping

WEXILE (Wexford) - Posts: 312 - 20/05/2024 14:48:06    2545884

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Replying To WEXILE:  "And that there is thr point. How is it helping"
The loser will be playing Westmeath, Kerry and, Laois or Offaly, next year, in a competition they will have every chance of winning.

And, if they do, they are back up in Leinster again the year after.

What's the problem?

To be honest, there's even a case to made that Carlow are better off in the Joe Mac than in the Leinster.

We are not going to win a Leinster, let alone a Liam McCarthy. We have every chance in the Joe Mac. Which is a great competition.

Look at Offaly... they were getting heavy beatings for a few years before they initially went down to Joe Mac. Then they dropped to Christy Ring.

Coming back up the grades has improved their confidence and self belief to such an extent that Clare only beat them by a point in the league this year. And they drew with Wexford.

Would that have happened if they'd kept on getting hammered in the Liam McCarthy?

I think a lot of people are missing the point on this issue.

Constantly getting beaten in the Liam Mac is not better than having games you can win in the Joe Mac, in my opinion.

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 740 - 20/05/2024 15:04:24    2545892

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Replying To CARPS:  "The loser will be playing Westmeath, Kerry and, Laois or Offaly, next year, in a competition they will have every chance of winning.

And, if they do, they are back up in Leinster again the year after.

What's the problem?

To be honest, there's even a case to made that Carlow are better off in the Joe Mac than in the Leinster.

We are not going to win a Leinster, let alone a Liam McCarthy. We have every chance in the Joe Mac. Which is a great competition.

Look at Offaly... they were getting heavy beatings for a few years before they initially went down to Joe Mac. Then they dropped to Christy Ring.

Coming back up the grades has improved their confidence and self belief to such an extent that Clare only beat them by a point in the league this year. And they drew with Wexford.

Would that have happened if they'd kept on getting hammered in the Liam McCarthy?

I think a lot of people are missing the point on this issue.

Constantly getting beaten in the Liam Mac is not better than having games you can win in the Joe Mac, in my opinion."
Gutted over the performance more so than the result yesterday. Anyway as previously stated it was always going to come down to the Antrim game. I understand your point CARPS but disagree that carlow are better off in the joe mc. The joe mc is a great competition but imo seeing the amount of kids out at half time in the liam mc games and the euphoria after the kilkenny game just can't be replicated in the joe mc. Anyway we could be back there either way unless we produce a big performance next Sunday.

Unusedsub (Carlow) - Posts: 92 - 20/05/2024 15:39:11    2545912

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Replying To CARPS:  "It would dilute the quality, make it easier for teams like Carlow and Antrim to stay up, and totally weaken the Joe Mac.

Terrible idea.

The current jeopardy is why the likes of Carlow and Antrim are getting surprise results. They have to fight in every game.

Also, if you took both Leix and Offaly out of the Joe Mac, it would be a much diminished competition."
100% correct. If no relegation to joe mac teams such as Carlow and Antrim would stay in the top flight no matter how poor they are. The same would of course apply to Wexford, Kilkenny, Galway and Dublin.
Every sport has jeopardy built in. Its not unfair its the way sport has to be. If teams knew they were safe no matter what the results it would demean the whole competition.
Sport can be cruel but its up to teams to improve their standard and strive to become more competitive.
You can't sugarcoat our games and hope that teams will get better by playing higher ranked teams in the round robin when they are obviously not close to the standard.
It may seem harsh but as in all walks of life you have to earn your position. Nothing should be handed to you on a plate.

Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 386 - 20/05/2024 16:23:58    2545928

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Replying To Magpie2:  "100% correct. If no relegation to joe mac teams such as Carlow and Antrim would stay in the top flight no matter how poor they are. The same would of course apply to Wexford, Kilkenny, Galway and Dublin.
Every sport has jeopardy built in. Its not unfair its the way sport has to be. If teams knew they were safe no matter what the results it would demean the whole competition.
Sport can be cruel but its up to teams to improve their standard and strive to become more competitive.
You can't sugarcoat our games and hope that teams will get better by playing higher ranked teams in the round robin when they are obviously not close to the standard.
It may seem harsh but as in all walks of life you have to earn your position. Nothing should be handed to you on a plate."
Yes but Antrim, Carlow and Westmeath have shown in the last 2 years they aren't a million miles off ourselves or Dublin. Or Kilkenny. The best way to become a better hurler is play on better opponents as often as possible. You aren't going to get these in the Joe Mac every week.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 20/05/2024 17:27:06    2545951

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I think there needs to be the jeopardy of relegation from Liam Mc but what I'd actually like to see is the provincials decoupled from the AI. So let everyone play Leinster earlier in the year instead of the league and ranked your teams from that into who's in Joe mc and who's in Liam mc

Or
Provincials for everyone early
League
Joe Mc / Liam Mc

We just need the smaller counties playing the bigger teams more regularly in some form

benchtoaster (Carlow) - Posts: 40 - 20/05/2024 17:46:59    2545960

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Replying To Unusedsub:  "Gutted over the performance more so than the result yesterday. Anyway as previously stated it was always going to come down to the Antrim game. I understand your point CARPS but disagree that carlow are better off in the joe mc. The joe mc is a great competition but imo seeing the amount of kids out at half time in the liam mc games and the euphoria after the kilkenny game just can't be replicated in the joe mc. Anyway we could be back there either way unless we produce a big performance next Sunday."
"the euphoria after the kilkenny game just can't be replicated in the joe mc."

What about the euphoria after beating Offaly in the Joe Mac final last year?

I think the current structure is working well. And should be left alone.

If we deserve to play in Leinster next year, we'll beat Antrim.

If we don't, let's try to win the Joe Mac again and come straight back up.

To be honest, though, my biggest concern about Carlow hurling isn't about what happens next Sunday. It's about the long term.

Underage results in recent years have been concerning. There needs to be an evaluation of what is going wrong there. In both codes, actually.

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 740 - 20/05/2024 19:48:33    2545990

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Replying To Viking66:  "Yes but Antrim, Carlow and Westmeath have shown in the last 2 years they aren't a million miles off ourselves or Dublin. Or Kilkenny. The best way to become a better hurler is play on better opponents as often as possible. You aren't going to get these in the Joe Mac every week."
As they say Viking, one swallow doesn't make a summer.i would love to see the three teams you named making good and steady progress but by playing stronger sides and getting humilated will serve no purpase.
Yes Carlow drew with the cats and fair play to them. Galway, Dublin and Wexford beat them.
They have come on to some extent but are obviousley unable to trouble bigger teams most times.
Antrim are difficult in Belfast but fail badly when on the road.
Westmeath love playing Wexford, but are struggling in the Joe Mac at present.
Over many years all teams mentioned here are forever yo yoeing and until their standard improves will continue to yo yo.
Lop sided games do nothing for those teams.
Only succeeds in causing embarasment when beaten by a cricket score.
Best solution is for them to get their underage up to scratch and if they become competitive in that then perhaps over time they may be able to compete with the top four in leinster.
It's true to say that in every walk of life you have to learn your trade, serve an aprentishship and steadily improve your skills. Thrown in at the deep end brings about frustration, devastation, humilation and self doubt in their ability.

Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 386 - 20/05/2024 21:18:00    2546002

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Replying To Magpie2:  "As they say Viking, one swallow doesn't make a summer.i would love to see the three teams you named making good and steady progress but by playing stronger sides and getting humilated will serve no purpase.
Yes Carlow drew with the cats and fair play to them. Galway, Dublin and Wexford beat them.
They have come on to some extent but are obviousley unable to trouble bigger teams most times.
Antrim are difficult in Belfast but fail badly when on the road.
Westmeath love playing Wexford, but are struggling in the Joe Mac at present.
Over many years all teams mentioned here are forever yo yoeing and until their standard improves will continue to yo yo.
Lop sided games do nothing for those teams.
Only succeeds in causing embarasment when beaten by a cricket score.
Best solution is for them to get their underage up to scratch and if they become competitive in that then perhaps over time they may be able to compete with the top four in leinster.
It's true to say that in every walk of life you have to learn your trade, serve an aprentishship and steadily improve your skills. Thrown in at the deep end brings about frustration, devastation, humilation and self doubt in their ability."
Carlow were competitive in all their games except the one against us. Dublin needed a square ball goal to beat them, and they pulled back within 4 halfway through the second half in Salthill. Which is better than we did halfway through the 2nd half in Salthill despite getting a six point head start. I agree repeated hammerings will do them no good but the likes of Doyle Nolan and the rest of the Carlow lads will get better playing regularly on Jippo, Matt and Damien, or TJ, Mullen, Lawlor, Cody, or Whelan, Mannion, Cooney, or Sutcliffe, O'Donnell, Burke, than they will playing Joe Mac lads.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 21/05/2024 08:07:33    2546029

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Replying To Magpie2:  "As they say Viking, one swallow doesn't make a summer.i would love to see the three teams you named making good and steady progress but by playing stronger sides and getting humilated will serve no purpase.
Yes Carlow drew with the cats and fair play to them. Galway, Dublin and Wexford beat them.
They have come on to some extent but are obviousley unable to trouble bigger teams most times.
Antrim are difficult in Belfast but fail badly when on the road.
Westmeath love playing Wexford, but are struggling in the Joe Mac at present.
Over many years all teams mentioned here are forever yo yoeing and until their standard improves will continue to yo yo.
Lop sided games do nothing for those teams.
Only succeeds in causing embarasment when beaten by a cricket score.
Best solution is for them to get their underage up to scratch and if they become competitive in that then perhaps over time they may be able to compete with the top four in leinster.
It's true to say that in every walk of life you have to learn your trade, serve an aprentishship and steadily improve your skills. Thrown in at the deep end brings about frustration, devastation, humilation and self doubt in their ability."
You're right in what you're saying but our biggest issue is population. Unfortunately we're never going to break in to the top 4 in Leinster. It's just not possible with so few clubs and the actual population of the county. We simply have to produce top class hurlers at a much higher rate per capita than the like of yourselves. Paul Cody made the same point on off the ball and he's right like. I'd like to see be able to compete in Leinster regularly and then just go into the Joe Mc. We're never going to win an all Ireland anyway

benchtoaster (Carlow) - Posts: 40 - 21/05/2024 08:38:47    2546037

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Replying To benchtoaster:  "You're right in what you're saying but our biggest issue is population. Unfortunately we're never going to break in to the top 4 in Leinster. It's just not possible with so few clubs and the actual population of the county. We simply have to produce top class hurlers at a much higher rate per capita than the like of yourselves. Paul Cody made the same point on off the ball and he's right like. I'd like to see be able to compete in Leinster regularly and then just go into the Joe Mc. We're never going to win an all Ireland anyway"
Exactly. I am not sure people realise how small our pick is.

For the benefit of those who mightn't fully understand the local club scene:

Mount Leinster Rangers: Catchment is Borris, Ballymurphy and Rathanna. I am guessing population is between 1,200-1,500. Hurling is more popular, but they also play senior football. And have provided county players in both codes. They also field intermediate and junior hurling teams.

St Mullins: Guessing their pick is about 800. Traditionally a hurling club, but also play Intermediate now in football. They also field intermediate and junior hurling teams.

Myshall: About 600-700 in the area. In hurling, also have some players from Kilbride. But this will be less available with Burrin Rangers rising. Play Intermediate football. Also field intermediate and junior hurling teams.

Bagenalstown: 2,500-3,000 in the town. Which also has soccer. And even a cricket club. A real dual club now. Senior in both codes. Also field intermediate and junior hurling teams.

Ballinkillen: A very small area. A few hundred. Traditionally most of their players are aligned with Fenagh (Intermediate) for football. They had a few Kildavin men until recently, but now Kildavin have restarted their own hurling. Also field a junior hurling team.

Naomh Brid: A big parish, but has three football clubs (one of them senior). Football comes first in this area. Brid do okay up to under 20 and then seem to drop off, as the big ball is prioritised. Also field a junior hurling team.

Carlow Town: The county's only intermediate club for some years. Pulling from five football clubs: Eire Og, O'Hanrahans, Tinryland, Palatine (more on that below) and Asca. Doing quite well at underage, but have same issue with drop off to football at adult level, like Bríd. Also field a junior hurling team.

Palatine: Big club. No underage. That is outsourced to Carlow Town. Don't even train for hurling, as far as i know, at adult level. Have a junior team. If they actually tried in hurling, they could be a top side very quickly. But they don't.

Burrin Rangers: Start up club. Pulling from three football clubs - Ballon, Fighting Cocks, Kilbride - (officially) and a few more (unofficially). Starting to do well at underage, but will probably face same football issues as Town and Brid at adult level.

Kildavin: Started back up last year. Which hurt Ballinkillen. But is probably broadly a good thing, especially if they push on at underage. Won the junior. Not sure if they are going to Intermediate this year.

And Setanta: Don't really understand the point of this club. Only plays underage with smaller kids. Then joins up with Carlow Town after under 14. No adult teams.

That's all, folks. We have three clubs which prioritise hurling. All of which have VERY small catchement areas. One which is genuinely dual, and another dual area. Three big area clubs (two of them very dysfunctional) which have to deal with multiple football sides competing for players, and two football clubs fielding hurling teams as an afterthought. And one club that makes little sense.

In reality, it's a miracle that we can compete at all.

CARPS (Carlow) - Posts: 740 - 21/05/2024 11:31:21    2546107

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Replying To Viking66:  "Carlow were competitive in all their games except the one against us. Dublin needed a square ball goal to beat them, and they pulled back within 4 halfway through the second half in Salthill. Which is better than we did halfway through the 2nd half in Salthill despite getting a six point head start. I agree repeated hammerings will do them no good but the likes of Doyle Nolan and the rest of the Carlow lads will get better playing regularly on Jippo, Matt and Damien, or TJ, Mullen, Lawlor, Cody, or Whelan, Mannion, Cooney, or Sutcliffe, O'Donnell, Burke, than they will playing Joe Mac lads."
I bow to your great knowledge and memory of games, players, stats etc viking. I would not be in that class, but i find it hard to understand how it would be possible to have say the likes of Carlow,
Antrim maybe Laois and Offaly playing in the top tier permantely. Maybe i'm missing something but are you saying that there should be no relegation from the leinster championship? Presumabley you would still have promotoin from the Joe Mac.
If that was to play out it would result in a very top heavy top tier. Meaning promotion but no relegation. Cant see that working in any shape or form. No sport to my knowledge has a no relegation rule. Yes it would be great to have the lower ranked teams playing the top four on a regular basis but if you finish in bottom place im afraid you have to take the drop. Same as ourselves who almost went down last year and we were all talking about the possibility of going down to Jm after our our first few games.
Sport always has winners and losers, ups and downs, happy and sad, good years bad years.
Sorry for hugging your forum Carlow.
Perhaps you may have found some of our comments interesting.

Magpie2 (Wexford) - Posts: 386 - 21/05/2024 11:42:45    2546112

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Replying To Magpie2:  "I bow to your great knowledge and memory of games, players, stats etc viking. I would not be in that class, but i find it hard to understand how it would be possible to have say the likes of Carlow,
Antrim maybe Laois and Offaly playing in the top tier permantely. Maybe i'm missing something but are you saying that there should be no relegation from the leinster championship? Presumabley you would still have promotoin from the Joe Mac.
If that was to play out it would result in a very top heavy top tier. Meaning promotion but no relegation. Cant see that working in any shape or form. No sport to my knowledge has a no relegation rule. Yes it would be great to have the lower ranked teams playing the top four on a regular basis but if you finish in bottom place im afraid you have to take the drop. Same as ourselves who almost went down last year and we were all talking about the possibility of going down to Jm after our our first few games.
Sport always has winners and losers, ups and downs, happy and sad, good years bad years.
Sorry for hugging your forum Carlow.
Perhaps you may have found some of our comments interesting."
Not atal. I was quick to pop over to ye at the weekend after that gob***** in the stand!

It's always good to hear new opinions, the only solution is let us play Leinster and then Joe mc is our all Ireland I think everyone would be happy with that tbh.

benchtoaster (Carlow) - Posts: 40 - 21/05/2024 12:13:00    2546120

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Replying To Magpie2:  "I bow to your great knowledge and memory of games, players, stats etc viking. I would not be in that class, but i find it hard to understand how it would be possible to have say the likes of Carlow,
Antrim maybe Laois and Offaly playing in the top tier permantely. Maybe i'm missing something but are you saying that there should be no relegation from the leinster championship? Presumabley you would still have promotoin from the Joe Mac.
If that was to play out it would result in a very top heavy top tier. Meaning promotion but no relegation. Cant see that working in any shape or form. No sport to my knowledge has a no relegation rule. Yes it would be great to have the lower ranked teams playing the top four on a regular basis but if you finish in bottom place im afraid you have to take the drop. Same as ourselves who almost went down last year and we were all talking about the possibility of going down to Jm after our our first few games.
Sport always has winners and losers, ups and downs, happy and sad, good years bad years.
Sorry for hugging your forum Carlow.
Perhaps you may have found some of our comments interesting."
I'm maybe too old fashioned but I think any Leinster county should be able to compete in the Leinster Championship if they are wanting to. If we have 2 groups of 4, top 2 in each group into SFs, and bottom 2 in each group into relegation SFs, with a 3rd/4th playoff to determine who enters the AI series, it will even up the number of games played with Munster.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 21/05/2024 12:43:25    2546131

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Replying To Viking66:  "I'm maybe too old fashioned but I think any Leinster county should be able to compete in the Leinster Championship if they are wanting to. If we have 2 groups of 4, top 2 in each group into SFs, and bottom 2 in each group into relegation SFs, with a 3rd/4th playoff to determine who enters the AI series, it will even up the number of games played with Munster."
I think from reading these posts I get the feeling that a lot of supporters enjoy the Joe Mac and quite understandably don't like the prospect of getting hammered in Leinster even tho Carlow will only have lost bad once this year. I know from past periods following Wexford that bad beatings are soul destroying. Remember loads of Leinster finals in the old format around mid to late naughties where we were beaten badly every year by KK then we'd be hammered by Clare on a few occasions. We had a 24 point beating v KK in 2014 I think so it isn't fun and we know that.

Its also a question or population, teadition etc. To go to Joe Mac to me would be devastating but we are not Carlow so we can't expect the same feelings from them. Personally I think 2 groups would be fun to even trial it for a year or two.

Other things fhe GAA could try is keep the current system but promotion and relegation could be a 2 year cycle. So you get promoted for 2 years rather than one.

Scrap the league or shorten the league. Play the Joe Mac and let the winner that year hurl in Leinster the same year.

None of these are perfect and won't be adopted but you'd think a think tank would be tasked to take a real long term view on hurling development. Joe Mac was a good addition. Some people want to stay in it some want to progress.

WEXILE (Wexford) - Posts: 312 - 21/05/2024 13:36:17    2546147

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Replying To benchtoaster:  "Not atal. I was quick to pop over to ye at the weekend after that gob***** in the stand!

It's always good to hear new opinions, the only solution is let us play Leinster and then Joe mc is our all Ireland I think everyone would be happy with that tbh."
Ah I get you now. Play Leinster 1st. That would work for me either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 21/05/2024 14:19:15    2546165

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Replying To WEXILE:  "I think from reading these posts I get the feeling that a lot of supporters enjoy the Joe Mac and quite understandably don't like the prospect of getting hammered in Leinster even tho Carlow will only have lost bad once this year. I know from past periods following Wexford that bad beatings are soul destroying. Remember loads of Leinster finals in the old format around mid to late naughties where we were beaten badly every year by KK then we'd be hammered by Clare on a few occasions. We had a 24 point beating v KK in 2014 I think so it isn't fun and we know that.

Its also a question or population, teadition etc. To go to Joe Mac to me would be devastating but we are not Carlow so we can't expect the same feelings from them. Personally I think 2 groups would be fun to even trial it for a year or two.

Other things fhe GAA could try is keep the current system but promotion and relegation could be a 2 year cycle. So you get promoted for 2 years rather than one.

Scrap the league or shorten the league. Play the Joe Mac and let the winner that year hurl in Leinster the same year.

None of these are perfect and won't be adopted but you'd think a think tank would be tasked to take a real long term view on hurling development. Joe Mac was a good addition. Some people want to stay in it some want to progress."
For me it's not even that I want to stay in Joe mc but it's just that Carlows season is always so short. Why does it have to be Leinster or Joe mc while for everyone else it's Leinster / Munster then the AI series or a chance of it.

I think that Leinster of 2 groups is the great idea let the top 2 from each group go to Leinster semi finals
3rd and 4th from each group play in the Joe mc

That way your season continues and lads get more exposure at county level. It also allows an opportunity to progress. This one or other carry on is actually the issue. If we are actually serious about growing the game it's more games for more counties we need

benchtoaster (Carlow) - Posts: 40 - 21/05/2024 14:38:53    2546172

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Replying To benchtoaster:  "For me it's not even that I want to stay in Joe mc but it's just that Carlows season is always so short. Why does it have to be Leinster or Joe mc while for everyone else it's Leinster / Munster then the AI series or a chance of it.

I think that Leinster of 2 groups is the great idea let the top 2 from each group go to Leinster semi finals
3rd and 4th from each group play in the Joe mc

That way your season continues and lads get more exposure at county level. It also allows an opportunity to progress. This one or other carry on is actually the issue. If we are actually serious about growing the game it's more games for more counties we need"
I think in general the season is way too short for everyone. If you don't finish in top 3 of Leinster your season is actually over at least 2 games before the Joe Mac finalists. And should either win the preliminary quarter then you've an extra game pike Laois beating Dublin in 2019.

Thr provincial /Joe Mac should be decoupled from all ireland too in my opinion. Everyone in top tier should get a crack at it after provincials.

Anyway I hope ye do it Sunday, plenty in Wexford will be shouting for ye

WEXILE (Wexford) - Posts: 312 - 21/05/2024 20:24:05    2546253

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