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I'm not even sure some of these proposals are better than the status quo to be honest.

Part of me thinks the leagues could just be expanded to division of 10, 10, 12 or something and keep the Provincial championships and qualifiers but tweak them to be more fair.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 20/01/2022 10:18:51    2395697

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Replying To Whammo86:  "In 2013 had Leitrim beaten London in the semifinals they'd have been into a Connacht final having played New York and London only. Sligo could get to a Connacht final winning one match versus the winner of a London v Leitrim quarterfinal tie. The point remains that I don't like the Provincial finalists get a spot in the All Ireland as there can be very sod pathways to Provincial finals and I'd rather division 2 teams get the nod over the Provincial finalists.

Maybe the compromise solution is:

Has provincial finalists that haven't qualified playing a playoff round v the worst ranked division 2 team that would make it.

I don't like the group stages in either tier in this proposal where 3 from 4 advance to the knockout round. Just feels like the blind fear of dead rubbers is rearing it's head and creating a low stakes group stage."
Agreed. It could easily happen in Munster too. If this proposal was brought in this year, Tipperary a division 4 team, could easily find themselves in the qualifiers. They would only need to beat Waterford and winners of Clare/Limerick. They would be favourites to come through from there probably.

Agree regarding group stages too. You have 6 games to eliminate one team.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 20/01/2022 10:55:41    2395704

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'm not even sure some of these proposals are better than the status quo to be honest.

Part of me thinks the leagues could just be expanded to division of 10, 10, 12 or something and keep the Provincial championships and qualifiers but tweak them to be more fair."
I don't know, I think the leagues are pretty spot on the way they are, I think they should leave the league as a stamd alone competition but use league standings as a way to set up a knew championship.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 20/01/2022 12:10:57    2395725

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Agreed. It could easily happen in Munster too. If this proposal was brought in this year, Tipperary a division 4 team, could easily find themselves in the qualifiers. They would only need to beat Waterford and winners of Clare/Limerick. They would be favourites to come through from there probably.

Agree regarding group stages too. You have 6 games to eliminate one team."
It's 3 to eliminate one team.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 20/01/2022 14:17:21    2395753

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It's 3 to eliminate one team."
It's 3 each, 6 total

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 20/01/2022 15:38:29    2395764

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I don't know, I think the leagues are pretty spot on the way they are, I think they should leave the league as a stamd alone competition but use league standings as a way to set up a knew championship."
Yeah that's fair and I don't disagree. Just trying to come up with ways to get more than 9 games for each team if there isn't a group stage.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 20/01/2022 15:39:31    2395766

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It's 3 to eliminate one team."
6 games in total in a group.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 423 - 20/01/2022 15:42:01    2395767

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It's 3 to eliminate one team."
If there are 4 teams in a a round Robin group then there are 6 games.

Stop Trolling. You are new to the site.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 20/01/2022 15:50:29    2395772

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Agreed. It could easily happen in Munster too. If this proposal was brought in this year, Tipperary a division 4 team, could easily find themselves in the qualifiers. They would only need to beat Waterford and winners of Clare/Limerick. They would be favourites to come through from there probably.

Agree regarding group stages too. You have 6 games to eliminate one team."
That's the luck of the draw. You're always going to have that. It could easily be Cork instead of Tipp on that side of the draw. They'd be fancied to be Waterford, and could probably manage the winners of Clare/Limk (probably Clare). So, Cork could handily find themselves in the qualifiers too, had they not been pulled on the same side of the draw as Kerry.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1337 - 20/01/2022 16:05:14    2395773

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "That's the luck of the draw. You're always going to have that. It could easily be Cork instead of Tipp on that side of the draw. They'd be fancied to be Waterford, and could probably manage the winners of Clare/Limk (probably Clare). So, Cork could handily find themselves in the qualifiers too, had they not been pulled on the same side of the draw as Kerry."
Exactly, it's the luck of the draw. That's the point that Whamm was making. A Division 4 team can make the round Robin stage with one or two wins. He used the hypothetical example of Leitrim/ London. Tipperary is another example. They will almost certainly Waterford and are more than capable of beating Clare/Limerick (probably Clare as you say but I wouldn't bet too much on it). Tipp v Clare/Limerick is 50/50 as results between them shows.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 20/01/2022 16:42:33    2395777

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Replying To bennybunny:  "Exactly, it's the luck of the draw. That's the point that Whamm was making. A Division 4 team can make the round Robin stage with one or two wins. He used the hypothetical example of Leitrim/ London. Tipperary is another example. They will almost certainly Waterford and are more than capable of beating Clare/Limerick (probably Clare as you say but I wouldn't bet too much on it). Tipp v Clare/Limerick is 50/50 as results between them shows."
Exactly and one of the main driving factors behind a new championship is to make the Provincials have less relevance, so I don't understand the reason why one of the biggest inequalities being retained.

I can get behind giving provincial champions getting a shot at the All Ireland but I just don't see how getting to a provincial final is an achievement worthy of elevation at the expense of a higher placed league team.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 20/01/2022 17:27:20    2395784

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Replying To bennybunny:  "If there are 4 teams in a a round Robin group then there are 6 games.

Stop Trolling. You are new to the site."
1 group of 4 using a single round-robin format = 3 games. Stop acting like a child.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 20/01/2022 18:00:39    2395788

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's 3 each, 6 total"
A county will be out after playing 3 games if they finish last. You people will come up with any excuse to oppose change.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 20/01/2022 18:02:11    2395789

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "A county will be out after playing 3 games if they finish last. You people will come up with any excuse to oppose change."
It's the 3rd place team getting through that's a problem.

It's just very low intensity for championship having 3 from 4 go through.

I really think the association gets hung up on "no dead rubbers" and comes up with worse solutions because of it.

I stand by 4 being a terrible size of a group for GAA because after 2 rounds it's so common that you've 2 teams won 2, 2 teams lost 2 so to get it interesting you have to add 3 teams going through but that just also makes the group stage overall a little low impact.

I'm not voting on this so not opposing anything, I'm just pointing out why the powers that be are bad at coming up with a good approach.

There's always the complaint that nothing will suit everybody and I get that to an extent. The counter though is that what is brought forward could so obviously be improved. Again it's clear from the process they are following that is creating a real problem, so I think it's fair to critique the process too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 21/01/2022 11:22:56    2395841

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "1 group of 4 using a single round-robin format = 3 games. Stop acting like a child."
Maths or logic not your strong point.

You are a troll.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 21/01/2022 11:41:35    2395848

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's the 3rd place team getting through that's a problem.

It's just very low intensity for championship having 3 from 4 go through.

I really think the association gets hung up on "no dead rubbers" and comes up with worse solutions because of it.

I stand by 4 being a terrible size of a group for GAA because after 2 rounds it's so common that you've 2 teams won 2, 2 teams lost 2 so to get it interesting you have to add 3 teams going through but that just also makes the group stage overall a little low impact.

I'm not voting on this so not opposing anything, I'm just pointing out why the powers that be are bad at coming up with a good approach.

There's always the complaint that nothing will suit everybody and I get that to an extent. The counter though is that what is brought forward could so obviously be improved. Again it's clear from the process they are following that is creating a real problem, so I think it's fair to critique the process too."
Whammo if you have a group of 4 teams and you play the 2 strongest teams against eachother in the first game would that stop the chance of a dead rubber game in the final round?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 21/01/2022 12:17:21    2395854

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Whammo if you have a group of 4 teams and you play the 2 strongest teams against eachother in the first game would that stop the chance of a dead rubber game in the final round?"
Yeah it's definitely a big improvement. If they implemented that and had 2 go through I think it could be a good championship.

The super 8s tried to do that. Where they messed that one up was that they had the neutral venue first, so then there was a bit of complaining in the situation where a team played the hardest team in the group and lost and then had to follow that up with a must win away trip. Having Dublin playing neutral venues in Croker only compounded that as an issue.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 21/01/2022 14:28:26    2395876

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's the 3rd place team getting through that's a problem.

It's just very low intensity for championship having 3 from 4 go through.

I really think the association gets hung up on "no dead rubbers" and comes up with worse solutions because of it.

I stand by 4 being a terrible size of a group for GAA because after 2 rounds it's so common that you've 2 teams won 2, 2 teams lost 2 so to get it interesting you have to add 3 teams going through but that just also makes the group stage overall a little low impact.

I'm not voting on this so not opposing anything, I'm just pointing out why the powers that be are bad at coming up with a good approach.

There's always the complaint that nothing will suit everybody and I get that to an extent. The counter though is that what is brought forward could so obviously be improved. Again it's clear from the process they are following that is creating a real problem, so I think it's fair to critique the process too."
I agree with that. Its basically adding a second seeding round after the provincial championships and playing a lot of games to most likely eliminate the provincial runners up. Games for the sake of games really. While it could be better I don't see any glaring flaw.

We might see 2 big names play each other in the group stage - it won't be a true knock out game and might be a dead rubber; but in my opinion that's alright. The biggest games are yet to come in the knock out stage with the best teams seeded to get there.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 193 - 21/01/2022 14:29:39    2395877

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah it's definitely a big improvement. If they implemented that and had 2 go through I think it could be a good championship.

The super 8s tried to do that. Where they messed that one up was that they had the neutral venue first, so then there was a bit of complaining in the situation where a team played the hardest team in the group and lost and then had to follow that up with a must win away trip. Having Dublin playing neutral venues in Croker only compounded that as an issue."
100%.

The gaa can learn a lot from their mistakes in the past, and they've made quite a few.
Crokepark was neutral for most but not for everyone.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 21/01/2022 15:18:24    2395882

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If the 2 winners the first day meet each other you'd likely have teams on 4 pts, 2 pts, 2 pts and 0 pts going into the final round.
Technically all would have a possibility of getting through in round 3?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 423 - 21/01/2022 16:55:38    2395894

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