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Spillane clearly has no understanding of how things operate in a dual county.

Here in Wexford, for example, 90% or more of our inter-county hurlers also play football with their clubs, and 90% or more of our inter-county footballers also play hurling with their clubs.

Under Spillane's way, you'd be expecting these lads to play both club and county all year round, and that's simply not workable.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1233 - 08/12/2021 12:34:09    2392077

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Hmmm. I see now that Wexico guesses 80% of our county football panel are dual players at club level, where I said 90%. But either way, it's the vast majority, and Spillane's idea wouldn't work for them.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1233 - 08/12/2021 14:07:51    2392094

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Hmmm. I see now that Wexico guesses 80% of our county football panel are dual players at club level, where I said 90%. But either way, it's the vast majority, and Spillane's idea wouldn't work for them."
I looked at the wexford panel this in hurling on the portraits on sportsfile, I actually think Shaun Murpny might be the only non-dual player. Few on the football maybe 3 lads with Castletown only play football, Pa Doyle and Rory O'Connor with Starlights, maybe couple more too.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 08/12/2021 14:40:09    2392100

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I haven't read Pat Spillane's article. But I think I get the gist of what he is saying from articles that came up on my phone.
He may have a point regarding promoting the games that it is a negative that we will have no high profile games later on in the summer.
But like most decisions there is different considerations to look at when deciding whether to change or not.
The intercounty game going on as long as it does is terrible for the club game. Club championships are run off as an after thought, constantly delayed until the county is knocked out of the championship and then in a rush. This means many club players have little idea when they will actually be playing until just before it happens.
This is a huge problem for the future success of the GAA and attracting players to stay playing.
Also agree with what was said regarding dual players and coinciding the club hurling season with the inter county football season (and vica versa), this would still create huge problems. For example in south Meath there would be a lot of dual footballers/ hurlers and for this reason there has been issues in the past when trying to run early rounds of hurling championship with inter county footballers stopped playing club championship hurling matches.
All in all the GAA have to give club teams a free run to play their competitions and their is only 2 potential ways they can do this, either insist inter county players are made available for club games (reality is this is probably unworkable and unenforceable) or split the season into club and county.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1070 - 08/12/2021 17:08:39    2392120

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Will admit that bit like Spillane and certain others (some of whom frequent this forum), I was sceptical myself too when the idea of the shortened inter-county season was first proposed a few years ago. I thought it would be a mistake to remove the showpiece events from August/September and hand the stage over to other sports instead.

But since then, I've had a 100% change of mind, having seen the benefits that the split season brings for all concerned, with the main one being better defined club championships (still approx. 98% of all players). I think just about any true GAA person would agree, and I suspect that many of those still holding out against it are really just big day bandwagonners who'd barely know the way to the club grounds in their county.

For anyone with a genuine interest and involvement in gaelic games, things have never been better, and that extends to the extra club championship matches being shown on TV now around August/September. Previously, you just had county finals on TG4 from October onwards, but now even RTE are in on the act with earlier round club games from around the country.

The sort of big day bandwaggoner I mentioned would have no interest in a club match from some other part of the country, but for those of us with a genuine interest in and passion for hurling and football, it's great to see them.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1233 - 09/12/2021 13:08:37    2392190

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I haven't read Pat Spillane's article. But I think I get the gist of what he is saying from articles that came up on my phone.
He may have a point regarding promoting the games that it is a negative that we will have no high profile games later on in the summer.
But like most decisions there is different considerations to look at when deciding whether to change or not.
The intercounty game going on as long as it does is terrible for the club game. Club championships are run off as an after thought, constantly delayed until the county is knocked out of the championship and then in a rush. This means many club players have little idea when they will actually be playing until just before it happens.
This is a huge problem for the future success of the GAA and attracting players to stay playing.
Also agree with what was said regarding dual players and coinciding the club hurling season with the inter county football season (and vica versa), this would still create huge problems. For example in south Meath there would be a lot of dual footballers/ hurlers and for this reason there has been issues in the past when trying to run early rounds of hurling championship with inter county footballers stopped playing club championship hurling matches.
All in all the GAA have to give club teams a free run to play their competitions and their is only 2 potential ways they can do this, either insist inter county players are made available for club games (reality is this is probably unworkable and unenforceable) or split the season into club and county."
Agree and I can see the pros and cons of the split season. One area that hasn't been considered though when deciding to split the season is the right of young people to travel and socialise. It'll be very difficult to stop a high percentage of inter county players who are students from taking off to the US etc at the end of June for two months; not every club has a realistic chance of winning a county title and of course some will remain because playing for the club is more than a county title.

However my prediction is the best championships during July and August could well be happening in North America with each club having a number of inter county players spending the summer with them. I'm in favour of giving young people that opportunity so it's a pro in the split season decision but I think many are naive to think inter county players will automatically drop back to their clubs post inter county season, when the world is back to some normality a lot won't and many may decide it isn't football they want to travel for and take off elsewhere for the summer months leaving clubs without inter county players anyhow.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 960 - 09/12/2021 13:51:43    2392199

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Replying To sam1884:  "Agree and I can see the pros and cons of the split season. One area that hasn't been considered though when deciding to split the season is the right of young people to travel and socialise. It'll be very difficult to stop a high percentage of inter county players who are students from taking off to the US etc at the end of June for two months; not every club has a realistic chance of winning a county title and of course some will remain because playing for the club is more than a county title.

However my prediction is the best championships during July and August could well be happening in North America with each club having a number of inter county players spending the summer with them. I'm in favour of giving young people that opportunity so it's a pro in the split season decision but I think many are naive to think inter county players will automatically drop back to their clubs post inter county season, when the world is back to some normality a lot won't and many may decide it isn't football they want to travel for and take off elsewhere for the summer months leaving clubs without inter county players anyhow."
To be honest I think it's getting thought about as much as it should.

If a club's young inter-county players want to go off for a Summer in the US it just is what it is. They lose out, they have a worse chance, it's not the end of the world and we just can't be trying to accommodate every life situation that can potentially lead to teams being without their best players. The calendar is just too tight to take that approach any longer.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3829 - 10/12/2021 14:58:46    2392311

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To be honest I think it's getting thought about as much as it should.

If a club's young inter-county players want to go off for a Summer in the US it just is what it is. They lose out, they have a worse chance, it's not the end of the world and we just can't be trying to accommodate every life situation that can potentially lead to teams being without their best players. The calendar is just too tight to take that approach any longer."
On the balance I do agree with the split season but I do strongly believe the best championships during the summer months will be in North America and it will be ironic after clubs campaigned for so long to have their inter county players at a good time of the year will in effect in a lot of cases not have them anyway.

Time will tell if the split season will be worth it for that reason or if we'd be safer reverting back to club championships starting at the time they did albeit slightly earlier but not as early as is proposed now.

Although as we both alluded to it is a great opportunity for inter county players who are students to play an inter county season and then have time to travel, I doubt many who choose that lifestyle will feel they're missing out.

Also for the GAA in the US and maybe London a great opportunity to have a very good championship during July - September.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 960 - 10/12/2021 15:54:49    2392328

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Looks like this might be resolved faster than expected, in February. See from the Irish Examiner:

GAA shortlist 'red' and 'green' plans for All-Ireland SFC restructure
It is envisaged one proposal will be endorsed by GAA Central Council next month to be put on the Clár of Congress in Mayo with a mind to becoming the competition's structure in 2023

[url=]https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40768641.html

ErneSheugh (Fermanagh) - Posts: 2 - 18/12/2021 13:40:54    2393144

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Looks like a binary choice - 'Proposal B Plus' (Round Robin Provs, NFL 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and AIC KO) and 'Kelly Plus' (KO Provs, NFL 4 Divs, AIC 4x4 groups in two tiers).
Maybe Proposal B Plus' is slightly better - I'm still underwhelmed.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 18/12/2021 14:27:53    2393153

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Replying To omahant:  "Looks like a binary choice - 'Proposal B Plus' (Round Robin Provs, NFL 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and AIC KO) and 'Kelly Plus' (KO Provs, NFL 4 Divs, AIC 4x4 groups in two tiers).
Maybe Proposal B Plus' is slightly better - I'm still underwhelmed."
Ya I saw that, and ya it's underwhelming alright, I'd like to see the green proposal in full and does winning the province mean anything.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/12/2021 14:41:02    2393156

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Replying To omahant:  "Looks like a binary choice - 'Proposal B Plus' (Round Robin Provs, NFL 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and AIC KO) and 'Kelly Plus' (KO Provs, NFL 4 Divs, AIC 4x4 groups in two tiers).
Maybe Proposal B Plus' is slightly better - I'm still underwhelmed."
From what I read in one of the newspapers but might of misunderstood it is Kelly's proposal links the Prov championships to the All Ireland competiton by the 8 provincial finalists making the All Ireland 4x4 model with the other 8 places going to highest ranked National League placing of those that didn't make their Provincial final with the rest playing in the secondary competition.

Proposal B plus doesn't link the Prov championships to the All Ireland but will move to a 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B national league model with an All Ireland knockout plan; major difference I'm guessing is the top 8 currently in Division 1 will be split across two leagues (A & B) making it a lot less competitive than the current Division 1 therefore trying to remove the problem of the 6th place Division 1 team missing out originally.

I think the Kelly plan is the best one and realistically the one that has a chance of passing; provincial councils are likely to vote for that proposal if they had to choose one of them and it links all the competitions together whilst giving every team a chance of competing for the senior All Ireland.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 960 - 18/12/2021 14:59:27    2393159

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Replying To sam1884:  "From what I read in one of the newspapers but might of misunderstood it is Kelly's proposal links the Prov championships to the All Ireland competiton by the 8 provincial finalists making the All Ireland 4x4 model with the other 8 places going to highest ranked National League placing of those that didn't make their Provincial final with the rest playing in the secondary competition.

Proposal B plus doesn't link the Prov championships to the All Ireland but will move to a 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B national league model with an All Ireland knockout plan; major difference I'm guessing is the top 8 currently in Division 1 will be split across two leagues (A & B) making it a lot less competitive than the current Division 1 therefore trying to remove the problem of the 6th place Division 1 team missing out originally.

I think the Kelly plan is the best one and realistically the one that has a chance of passing; provincial councils are likely to vote for that proposal if they had to choose one of them and it links all the competitions together whilst giving every team a chance of competing for the senior All Ireland."
Yeah, Kelly has Prov Finals 8 in the AIC 4x4 groups - Prop B Plus gives the Prov Champs and losing Finalists a 2 pts and 1 pt bonus, respectively, in the league phase (not sure if this is enough, or even makes sense).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 18/12/2021 15:33:47    2393163

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A bit underwhelmed by both proposals.
If I had to choose only between the 2 I think I'd go for the "Kelly" version

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 516 - 19/12/2021 11:19:56    2393240

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My understanding is that these are two general frameworks that are open to tweaks/ finer details to be fleshed out in consultation with the counties.

E.g. - In Prop B+, just have top 4s in 1A and 1B to AI KO QFs (1v4, 2v3 crossover, top 4s in 2A and 2B to Tier 2 QFs);. In Kelly, in lieu of 4x4 AIC round robins, have 3v4 KO (winner to QF playoffs) and 1v2 double chance (winner to QFs, loser to QF Playoffs). So, each group will have 3 games total instead of 6).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 19/12/2021 17:07:45    2393267

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That should be 4 instead of 6.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 19/12/2021 17:08:56    2393268

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Time for an update since more news came out over Christmas. The new task force has come up with two plans which are expected to go forward to Congress in Feb.

The Red Plan is an amended version of Proposal B. League will revert to Div 1A/1B and 2A/2B structure. So I presume the top 8 in 1A/1B plus top 4 in 2A/2B will play for Sam. Provincial champions and finalists will get bonus points at the start of the League.

The Green Plan is very similar to the previous Sean Kelly proposal. There will be League, provincials, and a 2 tier championship split into 4 groups of 4. Provincial champions and finalists will be in Sam along with the 8 highest ranked counties from the League. The remaining counties will play in Tier 2. London/NY will have a play-off to decide who takes part but this is dependent on NY ability to field a team who can travel.

It seems like the Green Plan is the most likely to get over 60% and the provincial councils haven't objected. I know some people want them gone but keeping the provincials was always going to be necessary for any change to come in.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 597 - 07/01/2022 07:22:31    2393880

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Time for an update since more news came out over Christmas. The new task force has come up with two plans which are expected to go forward to Congress in Feb.

The Red Plan is an amended version of Proposal B. League will revert to Div 1A/1B and 2A/2B structure. So I presume the top 8 in 1A/1B plus top 4 in 2A/2B will play for Sam. Provincial champions and finalists will get bonus points at the start of the League.

The Green Plan is very similar to the previous Sean Kelly proposal. There will be League, provincials, and a 2 tier championship split into 4 groups of 4. Provincial champions and finalists will be in Sam along with the 8 highest ranked counties from the League. The remaining counties will play in Tier 2. London/NY will have a play-off to decide who takes part but this is dependent on NY ability to field a team who can travel.

It seems like the Green Plan is the most likely to get over 60% and the provincial councils haven't objected. I know some people want them gone but keeping the provincials was always going to be necessary for any change to come in."
To be honest, I'm still underwhelmed with these 2 proposals, still we'll have to chose 1, God knows what that'll be.

We could do with more games, a max 14 games in 27 weeks isn't a lot.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 07/01/2022 11:42:44    2393912

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "To be honest, I'm still underwhelmed with these 2 proposals, still we'll have to chose 1, God knows what that'll be.

We could do with more games, a max 14 games in 27 weeks isn't a lot."
14 minimum but you have to take into account that there will be league finals plus the knockout stage and time for hurling as well. 14 is an increase on what most counties get now. 7 league games plus 2 championship games.

The GAA have said that they will allow provinces to organise their own formats so they could have a group stage.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 597 - 07/01/2022 12:18:43    2393923

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Time for an update since more news came out over Christmas. The new task force has come up with two plans which are expected to go forward to Congress in Feb.

The Red Plan is an amended version of Proposal B. League will revert to Div 1A/1B and 2A/2B structure. So I presume the top 8 in 1A/1B plus top 4 in 2A/2B will play for Sam. Provincial champions and finalists will get bonus points at the start of the League.

The Green Plan is very similar to the previous Sean Kelly proposal. There will be League, provincials, and a 2 tier championship split into 4 groups of 4. Provincial champions and finalists will be in Sam along with the 8 highest ranked counties from the League. The remaining counties will play in Tier 2. London/NY will have a play-off to decide who takes part but this is dependent on NY ability to field a team who can travel.

It seems like the Green Plan is the most likely to get over 60% and the provincial councils haven't objected. I know some people want them gone but keeping the provincials was always going to be necessary for any change to come in."
If the Green plan didn't include finalists I think it'd be a great system.

In Connacht you could have Leitrim beat London to reach a Connacht final to qualify.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3829 - 07/01/2022 20:05:47    2394017

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