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Replying To Whammo86: "The issue though is that the inter county season's footprint is too large.
It's a bloated season, with not lots of excitement to be honest.
It should be reduced overall but the games that are played given more edge.
12 teams making it through to the knockout rounds is too low of a bar." Tiered provincial round robin:
Galway v Mayo, Mayo v Roscommon and Roscommon v Galway will be good battles for top two.
Ulster - competitive gold. No more needs to be said.
Munster - Cork v Clare. Munster final should have best two.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 26/07/2024 09:55:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "Tiered provincial round robin:
Galway v Mayo, Mayo v Roscommon and Roscommon v Galway will be good battles for top two.
Ulster - competitive gold. No more needs to be said.
Munster - Cork v Clare. Munster final should have best two." Further entrenchment of systematic competitive imbalances.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 26/07/2024 12:30:28
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Replying To Whammo86: "Further entrenchment of systematic competitive imbalances." While two national groups of six sounds good in theory for hurling, will it retain the big crowds attending the Munster hurling championship?
When the GAA are considering championship structures etc., are people going to travel long distances consistently?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 26/07/2024 12:56:14
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Replying To legendzxix: "While two national groups of six sounds good in theory for hurling, will it retain the big crowds attending the Munster hurling championship?
When the GAA are considering championship structures etc., are people going to travel long distances consistently?" What do you see as long distances to be travelling?
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3624 - 26/07/2024 13:14:26
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Replying To KillingFields: "What do you see as long distances to be travelling?" Once you're going more than two to three hours more or less.
I was musing over national formats previously. The Munster hurling championship has swayed me that the right blend of local rivalries and jeopardy is the best way forward.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 26/07/2024 14:49:33
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Replying To legendzxix: "Once you're going more than two to three hours more or less.
I was musing over national formats previously. The Munster hurling championship has swayed me that the right blend of local rivalries and jeopardy is the best way forward." It really isn't. And shouldn't be an issue.
You just won't propose anything that changes your own county's relatively easy passage to latter stages of competition which is sad
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3624 - 26/07/2024 14:56:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "Once you're going more than two to three hours more or less.
I was musing over national formats previously. The Munster hurling championship has swayed me that the right blend of local rivalries and jeopardy is the best way forward." This just seems so much worse than the qualifiers.
The Ulster competition would be great, the Connacht, mmm doesn't feel like an improvement on straight knockout there, you're trying to sell Munster on the basis of Clare v Cork and then Leinster has Dublin streets ahead and their championship already lacking engagement. I just don't see it. I don't see how it'd be better than the current system or the old qualifier system and I just don't see how it's justifiable to als have teams not compete in their Provincial competition so as to facilitate what's not a great system.
Then you have the relegation not really being determined in a meritocratic way and the other entrenched competitive imbalances. Geographical distance between 2 teams is very far from being the dominant factor in terms of whether a match up is intriguing and could capture a crowd.
Comparisons between the hurling and the football are not earned at all. The hurling is offering compelling contests and local rivalries.
I simply don't get it. At all.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 26/07/2024 15:22:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "This just seems so much worse than the qualifiers.
The Ulster competition would be great, the Connacht, mmm doesn't feel like an improvement on straight knockout there, you're trying to sell Munster on the basis of Clare v Cork and then Leinster has Dublin streets ahead and their championship already lacking engagement. I just don't see it. I don't see how it'd be better than the current system or the old qualifier system and I just don't see how it's justifiable to als have teams not compete in their Provincial competition so as to facilitate what's not a great system.
Then you have the relegation not really being determined in a meritocratic way and the other entrenched competitive imbalances. Geographical distance between 2 teams is very far from being the dominant factor in terms of whether a match up is intriguing and could capture a crowd.
Comparisons between the hurling and the football are not earned at all. The hurling is offering compelling contests and local rivalries.
I simply don't get it. At all." Roscommon lose to Mayo in Round 1. They'll have to beat Galway in a later round to make the final.
Munster is sometimes deprived of the best two in the final. A round robin should sort that.
The current provincial knockout, then group stage and then knockout again is clunky. Hurling has a smooth run of league, round robin and then knockouts. The provincial tiered system would offer football the same smooth flow of league, round robin and then knockout football.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 26/07/2024 16:32:52
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Replying To legendzxix: "Roscommon lose to Mayo in Round 1. They'll have to beat Galway in a later round to make the final.
Munster is sometimes deprived of the best two in the final. A round robin should sort that.
The current provincial knockout, then group stage and then knockout again is clunky. Hurling has a smooth run of league, round robin and then knockouts. The provincial tiered system would offer football the same smooth flow of league, round robin and then knockout football." If you want the equivalent of the SHC two "unbalanced" groups in the SFC, with many exciting local derbies, like the Muns SHC, then maybe its an Ulster 5 & The Rest 5 (or 6) for SFC as well.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 27/07/2024 03:49:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "Roscommon lose to Mayo in Round 1. They'll have to beat Galway in a later round to make the final.
Munster is sometimes deprived of the best two in the final. A round robin should sort that.
The current provincial knockout, then group stage and then knockout again is clunky. Hurling has a smooth run of league, round robin and then knockouts. The provincial tiered system would offer football the same smooth flow of league, round robin and then knockout football." The qualifiers would be better than this and would less the impact of some of your perceived problems with last year's system.
It's not easy to incorporate a meaningful second tier into the qualifiers is it's big issue. Also that Provincial champions go straight to the qualifiers.
Your proposal also has a terrible second tier and weird relegation dynamics to it. Provincial champions get straight through to the quarters also.
If this is actually on the table I really hope it gets no traction. It's just not the answer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 27/07/2024 06:24:37
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Replying To Whammo86: "The qualifiers would be better than this and would less the impact of some of your perceived problems with last year's system.
It's not easy to incorporate a meaningful second tier into the qualifiers is it's big issue. Also that Provincial champions go straight to the qualifiers.
Your proposal also has a terrible second tier and weird relegation dynamics to it. Provincial champions get straight through to the quarters also.
If this is actually on the table I really hope it gets no traction. It's just not the answer." In the Champions League for years, the top two advanced to the final 16. The third placed teams entered the second tier tournament.
My suggestion isn't too dissimilar. The top two from the six provincial groups into the All-Ireland series. The third placed teams joined by the two Provincial Tier 2 winners in the Tailteann.
Debatably the fourth placed teams and the two Provincial Tier 2 runners-up can contest a Third Cup.
Four Provincial Tier 2 counties finishing 3rd and 4th are either finished for the summer or the TMC is resurrected for them for some taste of knockout football.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 27/07/2024 11:20:13
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Following the old league (1A/1B & 2A/2B) as AIC, we could have the playoffs as follows:
Tier 1 = Top 8 to Aussie-AFL 'crossover' ties with
Both 1v2 (double elimination) & 3v4 KO Prelim QFs.
KO 2 QFs = highest-seed 1/2 loser hosts lowest-seed 3/4 winner: other highest seed hosts other lowest seed.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
Tier 2 = Next 12 'crossover' KO (incl Div 2A/2B top 2s).
KO 4 Prelim QFs 1 hosts 8 & 2 hosts 7.
KO 4 QFs both 5s host 2 lowest-seed PQF winners;
both 6s host 2 strongest-seed PQF winners.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
'QF 8' go or stay up; 'Prelim QF 4 losers' go/stay down.
Tier 3 = Next 8 'crossover' KO.
KO 4 QFs = both 3s host 6s & both 4s host 5s.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
All 'QF 8' stay down.
Option - To increase group play from 7 to 10 games (5 at home/5 away), teams ranked 1,4,5&8 in one group at the start of the season play the same 'crossover' ranks in the other group, except their own rank (1 avoids 1, 2 avoids 2 etc); similarly, 2,3,6&7 in one group play '3 of 4' same ranks in the other group.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 27/07/2024 13:27:57
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Replying To omahant: "Following the old league (1A/1B & 2A/2B) as AIC, we could have the playoffs as follows:
Tier 1 = Top 8 to Aussie-AFL 'crossover' ties with
Both 1v2 (double elimination) & 3v4 KO Prelim QFs.
KO 2 QFs = highest-seed 1/2 loser hosts lowest-seed 3/4 winner: other highest seed hosts other lowest seed.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
Tier 2 = Next 12 'crossover' KO (incl Div 2A/2B top 2s).
KO 4 Prelim QFs 1 hosts 8 & 2 hosts 7.
KO 4 QFs both 5s host 2 lowest-seed PQF winners;
both 6s host 2 strongest-seed PQF winners.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
'QF 8' go or stay up; 'Prelim QF 4 losers' go/stay down.
Tier 3 = Next 8 'crossover' KO.
KO 4 QFs = both 3s host 6s & both 4s host 5s.
KO SFs = highest seed v lowest seed (at Croke Park).
All 'QF 8' stay down.
Option - To increase group play from 7 to 10 games (5 at home/5 away), teams ranked 1,4,5&8 in one group at the start of the season play the same 'crossover' ranks in the other group, except their own rank (1 avoids 1, 2 avoids 2 etc); similarly, 2,3,6&7 in one group play '3 of 4' same ranks in the other group." Good man.
Make things so complicated noone can follow it and increase the number of games for players who are already playing a crazy amount of games all year round.
Sounds like a winner.
Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 81 - 27/07/2024 14:23:00
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My calculations for the tiered provincial group stage format;
League: 1, 2, break, 3, 4, 5, break, 6, 7, league finals and break.
Provincials: 1, break, 2, break, 3, semi-finals, break, all 4 provincial finals and break.
All-Ireland: Pre-QF, break, QF, break, SF, break and Final.
All completed over the current timescale of 27 weekends.
Briefly: Provincial Tier 2 finals can be on the same weekend as Provincial Round 3. The Tailteann and Third Cup finals can be a double header in Croke Park on a Saturday, with the hurling quarter-finals taking place on the Sunday of the same weekend.
Some counties have expressed a preference for a reduction in time between last provincial game and their next match. There is a cost in keeping counties on the road. Lower tier tournaments aren't bringing in sufficient money for the overhead costs etc.. Earlier lower tier finals might find favour with county boards.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 27/07/2024 15:00:42
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Replying To Bdonegal1991: "Good man.
Make things so complicated noone can follow it and increase the number of games for players who are already playing a crazy amount of games all year round.
Sounds like a winner." Time this topic was closed or restricted to discussing the actual proposals that the GAA have put out there.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1795 - 27/07/2024 15:13:09
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Time this topic was closed or restricted to discussing the actual proposals that the GAA have put out there." Operating the provincial championships on a tiered basis is on the table for discussion with the county boards.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 27/07/2024 17:49:45
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Replying To Bdonegal1991: "Good man.
Make things so complicated noone can follow it and increase the number of games for players who are already playing a crazy amount of games all year round.
Sounds like a winner." I am combining 7 league games with 3 group games for a 10-game season (before the KO stage).
No increase, if the Prov KO is retained.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 27/07/2024 19:39:04
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Need to stop looking for a magic solution for the sake of tradition.
Keep it simple.
League played in April, May and June feeds directly into last 16 of Sam Maguire and Tailtean cups. Top of division 1 plays bottom of division 2 etc.
Last 16 through to final played in July and August.
At the minute the intercounty season starts in January but for 90% of counties nothing of any interest happens until at least June.
Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 81 - 27/07/2024 20:55:48
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Replying To Bdonegal1991: "Need to stop looking for a magic solution for the sake of tradition.
Keep it simple.
League played in April, May and June feeds directly into last 16 of Sam Maguire and Tailtean cups. Top of division 1 plays bottom of division 2 etc.
Last 16 through to final played in July and August.
At the minute the intercounty season starts in January but for 90% of counties nothing of any interest happens until at least June." An open draw for the QF round and potentially semi's
Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 81 - 27/07/2024 21:07:21
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Replying To Bdonegal1991: "Need to stop looking for a magic solution for the sake of tradition.
Keep it simple.
League played in April, May and June feeds directly into last 16 of Sam Maguire and Tailtean cups. Top of division 1 plays bottom of division 2 etc.
Last 16 through to final played in July and August.
At the minute the intercounty season starts in January but for 90% of counties nothing of any interest happens until at least June." Yours isn't much different to the current status quo. Division 1 teams guaranteed a Last 16 place. The championship not really starting until the Last 16.
In the tiered provincial championship format, teams are looking at knockout as early as round 2 or round 3.
The ideal provincial group of 4 is a game every second weekend. Round 1 winners playing each other in Round 2. Round 1 losers are looking at avoiding elimination in Round 2. Round 3 is then most likely going to be 2nd v 3rd in a battle for second place.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 27/07/2024 21:42:57
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