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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The 12:10:10 single group format can work with provincial championships retained. The provincial championships would have to be run from the end of January for six weeks. The tiered championships then Tier 1 of 12 teams over 11 rounds, Tier 2 of 10 teams over 9 rounds and Tier 3 of 10 teams over 9 rounds running from the middle of March.
The All-Ireland 12 would be complete after the provincial championships. 4 provincial winners, top 7 All-Ireland teams from the previous year and the Tailteann winner.
The 4 provincial winners would be seeded 1 to 4 based on previous year's championship performance for the fixture scheduling. 5 to 12 would also be on the previous year's championship performance for fixture scheduling. The top 5 seeds and Seed 12 (The Tailteann winner) could be rewarded 6 home games in the fixture scheduling, with all other teams getting 5 home games."
What about starting with two-tier 16:16 and a 12-match season, using rugby's URC '4 groups of 4' schedule of 18 games, less 6 own group games, incorporating all own-tier Prov ties.

The draw could be done after 'early season' Prov QFs, with each Prov SF4 then split, one each to a different group, and then losers in QFs & Prelim Rd drawn to a group different to the team that beat them (as teams in own group don't meet).

After 12 games for the three-tier AIC KO, the 16:16 splits into a top 8 (tier 1, top 4 double chance), next 12 (tier 2, 4 Prelim QF losers go or stay down) and bottom 12 (tier 3, all 12 stay down).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 19/05/2024 21:33:39    2545711

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Replying To omahant:  "What about starting with two-tier 16:16 and a 12-match season, using rugby's URC '4 groups of 4' schedule of 18 games, less 6 own group games, incorporating all own-tier Prov ties.

The draw could be done after 'early season' Prov QFs, with each Prov SF4 then split, one each to a different group, and then losers in QFs & Prelim Rd drawn to a group different to the team that beat them (as teams in own group don't meet).

After 12 games for the three-tier AIC KO, the 16:16 splits into a top 8 (tier 1, top 4 double chance), next 12 (tier 2, 4 Prelim QF losers go or stay down) and bottom 12 (tier 3, all 12 stay down)."
I'm not in favour but hey, we all have different ideas. 12:10:10 has been mentioned on some podcasts. I think that and the provincial championships retained would get through Congress. The old and the new maintained. A fair balance.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 20/05/2024 15:31:39    2545909

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yeah not a fan of the rugby format. I wouldnt follow rugby for any idea of structures. Feel like they have messed up both the old Celtic league and old Heineken Cup with hard to follow formats and a load of matches that are dead rubbers.

Rugby is in a bit of a mess imo with different tournaments and spread of Tv coverage. Irish media of course would be reluctant to admit this.


GAA will need to have a massive review after Jim Gavins review on top of these three year trial years.
Have to say the fact only 8k at Salthill and 9k at Castelbar should be setting off alarm bells. Lets see how the weeks go but if Dublin v Mayo has a dead rubber feel, surely we have to admit something is badly wrong with this structure. People just don't want Sam to be a league format.

After all the feedback it kinda feels like the provinces are still the strongest comp going until knockout. Maybe if they just combined Munster & Connacht together (so Kerry & one of the Connacht teams cannot get away with winning just two games to make AI quarter final) and did everything in their power to lift every other team in Leinster and used ways to limit Dublin (eg cap on spending, cap on coaching, cap on squad size, cap on resources), we could just go back to the old way and get on with our lives and a brilliant championship.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 228 - 20/05/2024 17:46:37    2545959

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Replying To shaggykev:  "yeah not a fan of the rugby format. I wouldnt follow rugby for any idea of structures. Feel like they have messed up both the old Celtic league and old Heineken Cup with hard to follow formats and a load of matches that are dead rubbers.

Rugby is in a bit of a mess imo with different tournaments and spread of Tv coverage. Irish media of course would be reluctant to admit this.


GAA will need to have a massive review after Jim Gavins review on top of these three year trial years.
Have to say the fact only 8k at Salthill and 9k at Castelbar should be setting off alarm bells. Lets see how the weeks go but if Dublin v Mayo has a dead rubber feel, surely we have to admit something is badly wrong with this structure. People just don't want Sam to be a league format.

After all the feedback it kinda feels like the provinces are still the strongest comp going until knockout. Maybe if they just combined Munster & Connacht together (so Kerry & one of the Connacht teams cannot get away with winning just two games to make AI quarter final) and did everything in their power to lift every other team in Leinster and used ways to limit Dublin (eg cap on spending, cap on coaching, cap on squad size, cap on resources), we could just go back to the old way and get on with our lives and a brilliant championship."
I think the EPCR revision to '4 groups of 6' leading to the 'KO Rd of 16' was easily understood and worked well.

What's wrong with the URC - 16 teams, 15 games+3 additional v national rivals, top 8 advance. Again, easily understood - you could argue the 3 extra games skew things, but it's quite good (inspired my GAA idea).

The AI SFC could be modelled on the Munster SHC - Ulster 5, Non-Ulster 5 (Dub, Ker, Gal, Mayo, Rosc). There could be an initial Prelim Rd to give all Ulster 9 and a Non-Ulster 9 a chance to get in (only prior year Champs in both earning an automatic spot).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 20/05/2024 21:35:06    2546010

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The Munster Hurling Championship is a hit. A 12 team All-Ireland over 11 games, with the top 6 qualifying for the knockout stages, should be a good level of competition. More or less the current Division 1 with the top half of Division 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 20/05/2024 21:52:00    2546019

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Replying To omahant:  "I think the EPCR revision to '4 groups of 6' leading to the 'KO Rd of 16' was easily understood and worked well.

What's wrong with the URC - 16 teams, 15 games+3 additional v national rivals, top 8 advance. Again, easily understood - you could argue the 3 extra games skew things, but it's quite good (inspired my GAA idea).

The AI SFC could be modelled on the Munster SHC - Ulster 5, Non-Ulster 5 (Dub, Ker, Gal, Mayo, Rosc). There could be an initial Prelim Rd to give all Ulster 9 and a Non-Ulster 9 a chance to get in (only prior year Champs in both earning an automatic spot)."
It wouldn't work for GAA. There'd be very little excitement to a 12 round league phase with too many teams qualifying for the final stages.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 21/05/2024 09:13:37    2546049

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It wouldn't work for GAA. There'd be very little excitement to a 12 round league phase with too many teams qualifying for the final stages."
Agreed. The 12 group round robin over 11 rounds seems a popular enough suggestion from a few sources. Top 2 into semi-finals and 4th to 6th into quarter-finals seems fair. If only the top 7 were guaranteed a place in the following year with 5 places reserved for the Tailteann winner and the next year's 4 provincial winners, there will be a lot to play for.
12th first in line to be replaced by the Tailteann winner, unless they win their next provincial championship campaign. 11th up to 8th then either winning their provincial as well or relying on higher placed counties doing them a favour by winning the provincial championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 21/05/2024 17:22:06    2546223

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Agreed. The 12 group round robin over 11 rounds seems a popular enough suggestion from a few sources. Top 2 into semi-finals and 4th to 6th into quarter-finals seems fair. If only the top 7 were guaranteed a place in the following year with 5 places reserved for the Tailteann winner and the next year's 4 provincial winners, there will be a lot to play for.
12th first in line to be replaced by the Tailteann winner, unless they win their next provincial championship campaign. 11th up to 8th then either winning their provincial as well or relying on higher placed counties doing them a favour by winning the provincial championship."
I sort of think 6 from 12 qualifying might be too much also.

To keep excitement high the more games you have the more restrictive the qualifying standard should become.

It's why I think 2 groups of 8 with 3 from each group progressing is a bit of a better format than 1 division of 12.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 22/05/2024 10:30:29    2546318

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I sort of think 6 from 12 qualifying might be too much also.

To keep excitement high the more games you have the more restrictive the qualifying standard should become.

It's why I think 2 groups of 8 with 3 from each group progressing is a bit of a better format than 1 division of 12."
I take your point. In the example given though, only the top 7 are guaranteed an All-Ireland place in the following year. The top 2 go direct to semi-finals. There seems enough jeopardy and reward built in. A single group makes it straightforward to identify 11th, 10th, 9th and 8th who might miss out depending on the following year's provincial winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 22/05/2024 13:45:34    2546395

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Agreed. The 12 group round robin over 11 rounds seems a popular enough suggestion from a few sources. Top 2 into semi-finals and 4th to 6th into quarter-finals seems fair. If only the top 7 were guaranteed a place in the following year with 5 places reserved for the Tailteann winner and the next year's 4 provincial winners, there will be a lot to play for.
12th first in line to be replaced by the Tailteann winner, unless they win their next provincial championship campaign. 11th up to 8th then either winning their provincial as well or relying on higher placed counties doing them a favour by winning the provincial championship."
It's a bit of a head scratcher - advancing half of 12 after 11 games works, but half of 16 after 12 games does not.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 11:45:18    2546554

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Replying To omahant:  "It's a bit of a head scratcher - advancing half of 12 after 11 games works, but half of 16 after 12 games does not."
Those are 2 different people's opinions.

I don't like either half of 12 after 11 games or half of 16 after 12 games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 23/05/2024 15:06:02    2546618

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But I do prefer 6 from 12 as you are getting the top 6 sides rather than top 8 sides so that is more intense.

I also slightly prefer an 11 round schedule where every team plays the other team once to a 12 round 16 team schedule where teams play different teams. I'd suspect the average GAA fan would like a 12 game 16 team system way less than I would.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 23/05/2024 15:10:34    2546620

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Rules committee going to trial 3 changes 1- keeping 3 from each team in the one half ( an ok idea but hard to police ).. 2- Clock buzzer like ladies football ( an excellent idea and long overdue )… 3- 2 points for a long range score ( ridiculous idea , imagine the confusion it would cost to spectators at club games )..

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2110 - 23/05/2024 16:32:51    2546648

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Replying To omahant:  "It's a bit of a head scratcher - advancing half of 12 after 11 games works, but half of 16 after 12 games does not."
Fair comment. When 8 qualify from 4 groups of 4, everyone is ok with it. It was more I wasn't enthused the the 16 team format. 12:10:10 seems about right. Everyone plays everyone in the group.
Some people are in favour of 12:10:10 as a merger of league and championship. To keep provincial championships on board, I see three tiered groups as the approach. Provincial winners are guaranteed top tier. Tier 2 and Tier 3 winners guaranteed to play a tier higher. Everyone else ranked on their previous championship performance. You can't have counties going from Division 3 direct to Division 1 in a league. In a tiered championship though, if the provincial winners are seeded 1 to 4, it is perfectly fair that a county might be Tier 3 one year but if they win their province in the next year, they'll qualify for Tier 1.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 23/05/2024 17:09:49    2546659

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Those are 2 different people's opinions.

I don't like either half of 12 after 11 games or half of 16 after 12 games."
Yes, and one of the trio consistently dislikes both, one may be open to both and one has a red dividing line down the middle - the latter, I struggle to unpackage.
Maybe tier 1 of 3 should be corralled at 12, as opposed to tier 1 of 2 at 16 - but there's not a strong argument one way or the other.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 17:21:04    2546663

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But I do prefer 6 from 12 as you are getting the top 6 sides rather than top 8 sides so that is more intense.

I also slightly prefer an 11 round schedule where every team plays the other team once to a 12 round 16 team schedule where teams play different teams. I'd suspect the average GAA fan would like a 12 game 16 team system way less than I would."
The 12 rounds consists of 3 teams from each seeding pot - any two teams plays either the same 12 or 9 opponents (variation on the 2024/25 Champions League Swiss/Shara system). While I like it, I'm not suggesting anyone else should or that the GAA is ready to even consider it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 17:29:31    2546664

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Rules committee going to trial 3 changes 1- keeping 3 from each team in the one half ( an ok idea but hard to police ).. 2- Clock buzzer like ladies football ( an excellent idea and long overdue )… 3- 2 points for a long range score ( ridiculous idea , imagine the confusion it would cost to spectators at club games ).."
On point 3, according to the Examiner today, an arc is under consideration - that would be more difficult to police at lower grades. While I like the concept, I'd keep "rectangular" zones - say, a broken line across at the "top of the D", 33 metres out at the tip.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 17:35:58    2546665

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But I do prefer 6 from 12 as you are getting the top 6 sides rather than top 8 sides so that is more intense.

I also slightly prefer an 11 round schedule where every team plays the other team once to a 12 round 16 team schedule where teams play different teams. I'd suspect the average GAA fan would like a 12 game 16 team system way less than I would."
KO 6 v AFL 8 (top 4 w/back door, 2nd 4 Prelim QFs KO) ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 17:39:19    2546667

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But I do prefer 6 from 12 as you are getting the top 6 sides rather than top 8 sides so that is more intense.

I also slightly prefer an 11 round schedule where every team plays the other team once to a 12 round 16 team schedule where teams play different teams. I'd suspect the average GAA fan would like a 12 game 16 team system way less than I would."
And understand "way less" too, which is the real elephant in the room.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 23/05/2024 17:43:10    2546668

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The 12:10:10 format can work with two groups at each tier.
TIER 1 - ALL-IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP
2 groups of 6. Top team from each group direct to semi-finals. 2nd v 3rd from the other group in the quarter-finals.
The left field part: The two 4th placed teams playing off for the 7th guaranteed qualifying spot for the following year. The two 5th placed teams playing off for a "2nd wildcard spot" for the following year. The two 6th placed teams playing off for a "4th wildcard spot' for the following year.
The All-Ireland 12 would consist of the 4 provincial winners, Tailteann winners and 7 best placed championship performers from the previous year. Where a provincial winner is also a Tailteann winner or has a top 7 ranking from the previous year, wildcards 1 to 4 will be next in line for an All-Ireland spot. At least 1 of the 12 will be in Tier 2 in the following year, as the Tier 2 winner will be in Tier 1.
TIER 2 - TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 5. Top 2 to semi-finals in Croke Park. These can be a curtain raiser to All-Ireland quarter-finals. In the unlikely event the 4 provincial winners come from a lower championship ranking, the Tailteann would require a playoff for the 5th Tailteann qualifying position between the 3rd placed teams. The 4th placed teams in a playoff for the 2nd wildcard spot and the 5th placed teams playing off for the 4th wildcard spot.
TIER 3 - NAME TBD
2 groups of 5. Top 2 to semi-finals in Croke Park. The semi-finals can be on the Saturday a week before the Tier 2 semi-finals. The All-Ireland hurling quarter-finals can take the Sunday slot.
NOTES:
With the league detached from championship, the league can start at the beginning of January and finished by early March.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 24/05/2024 21:34:49    2546888

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