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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To omahant:  "KO 6 v AFL 8 (top 4 w/back door, 2nd 4 Prelim QFs KO) ?"
This sort of nonsense really does require a large intake of aspirin while reading….headache inducing stuff… far far too complicated

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2110 - 25/05/2024 08:38:07    2546903

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Replying To shaggykev:  "yeah not a fan of the rugby format. I wouldnt follow rugby for any idea of structures. Feel like they have messed up both the old Celtic league and old Heineken Cup with hard to follow formats and a load of matches that are dead rubbers.

Rugby is in a bit of a mess imo with different tournaments and spread of Tv coverage. Irish media of course would be reluctant to admit this.


GAA will need to have a massive review after Jim Gavins review on top of these three year trial years.
Have to say the fact only 8k at Salthill and 9k at Castelbar should be setting off alarm bells. Lets see how the weeks go but if Dublin v Mayo has a dead rubber feel, surely we have to admit something is badly wrong with this structure. People just don't want Sam to be a league format.

After all the feedback it kinda feels like the provinces are still the strongest comp going until knockout. Maybe if they just combined Munster & Connacht together (so Kerry & one of the Connacht teams cannot get away with winning just two games to make AI quarter final) and did everything in their power to lift every other team in Leinster and used ways to limit Dublin (eg cap on spending, cap on coaching, cap on squad size, cap on resources), we could just go back to the old way and get on with our lives and a brilliant championship."
Rugby isn't really in a mess.
European rugby is on tnt.
Ùrc has different providers in each country its in.
Urc format keeps local rivalries. 6 games home and away against other provinces in case of irish sides and then they play once either home or away against every other team
European format isn't ideal but was where cuts to number of games were going to be made.
The old way in gaa didn't work and that's why it's never coming back. People just need to acc3pt that.
A League based main competition is how nearly every other sport works and players want more games in their primary competitions not less

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3542 - 25/05/2024 09:56:52    2546917

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Rugby isn't really in a mess.
European rugby is on tnt.
Ùrc has different providers in each country its in.
Urc format keeps local rivalries. 6 games home and away against other provinces in case of irish sides and then they play once either home or away against every other team
European format isn't ideal but was where cuts to number of games were going to be made.
The old way in gaa didn't work and that's why it's never coming back. People just need to acc3pt that.
A League based main competition is how nearly every other sport works and players want more games in their primary competitions not less"
The "old way" is gone just like 21 aside, point posts, sideline throwins, objections, AI Finals 3 years behind schedule, bishops throwing in the ball etc etc

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1579 - 25/05/2024 10:26:49    2546928

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Rugby isn't really in a mess.
European rugby is on tnt.
Ùrc has different providers in each country its in.
Urc format keeps local rivalries. 6 games home and away against other provinces in case of irish sides and then they play once either home or away against every other team
European format isn't ideal but was where cuts to number of games were going to be made.
The old way in gaa didn't work and that's why it's never coming back. People just need to acc3pt that.
A League based main competition is how nearly every other sport works and players want more games in their primary competitions not less"
"Players want more games in their primary competitions not less".

The primary competitions for 1% of these players is the AISFC. For the rest it's club football. More games for the 1% means less games for the other 99%.

League formats are for professional sports, not for an amateur sport who's strength lies in the club game. The club game is why GAA, soccer are part of local culture nationwide. The lack of club game is why you'll struggle to find a pub showing the Heineken Cup final in Donegal today.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 410 - 25/05/2024 10:46:38    2546935

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League formats are more for professional sports alright like the AFL and URC. While a 12:10:10 format mentioned on a few podcasts sounds great, 11 league rounds is probably too much.
Two groups of six is possibly the best fit for the All-Ireland Football Championship. There would have to be realism in reducing the current league to six rounds however or else starting the league at the beginning of January but detached from the All-Ireland series so that players are free to play for their clubs in the All-Ireland club championships or the third level tournaments.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 25/05/2024 11:08:29    2546940

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Replying To SurelyToGod:  ""Players want more games in their primary competitions not less".

The primary competitions for 1% of these players is the AISFC. For the rest it's club football. More games for the 1% means less games for the other 99%.

League formats are for professional sports, not for an amateur sport who's strength lies in the club game. The club game is why GAA, soccer are part of local culture nationwide. The lack of club game is why you'll struggle to find a pub showing the Heineken Cup final in Donegal today."
More games for inter County players doesn't have to mean less for club players.
The clubs, the gaa simply need to get on with playing games and competitions regardless of other levels. You can't hold up club competitions because of inter County competitions

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3542 - 25/05/2024 11:32:31    2546944

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Replying To SurelyToGod:  ""Players want more games in their primary competitions not less".

The primary competitions for 1% of these players is the AISFC. For the rest it's club football. More games for the 1% means less games for the other 99%.

League formats are for professional sports, not for an amateur sport who's strength lies in the club game. The club game is why GAA, soccer are part of local culture nationwide. The lack of club game is why you'll struggle to find a pub showing the Heineken Cup final in Donegal today."
You could play more championship games and less games overall. Scheduling club games around the county games would be much easier with a league based inter-county schedule too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 25/05/2024 13:34:48    2546964

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Heard the committee thar was set up look at rule changes are talking about giving 2 points for long range point and both teams have keep 3 players in both halves at all times ,, they definitely trying ruin football u would wonder was there' drink taken when they came up with this rubbish,, can u imagine a referee trying to judge where a point was kicked from one change need be done get rid of advance mark and that definitely help also what people must remember the majority of matches are played in jan - feb -March and early April when pitches are at there worse ,, need stop messing with rules and Invinting stupid ones or no one will refeee them or Coach them and eventually play them ,,,, the gaa are like government bring in something temporary but lasts for ever ,,,

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 880 - 25/05/2024 14:01:20    2546966

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Replying To Kickitout:  "Heard the committee thar was set up look at rule changes are talking about giving 2 points for long range point and both teams have keep 3 players in both halves at all times ,, they definitely trying ruin football u would wonder was there' drink taken when they came up with this rubbish,, can u imagine a referee trying to judge where a point was kicked from one change need be done get rid of advance mark and that definitely help also what people must remember the majority of matches are played in jan - feb -March and early April when pitches are at there worse ,, need stop messing with rules and Invinting stupid ones or no one will refeee them or Coach them and eventually play them ,,,, the gaa are like government bring in something temporary but lasts for ever ,,,"
Advanced mark is not the problem.
Should still get rid of it imo .
If that nonsense is the best this super Committee can come up with.... may as well ask this forum fir suggestions!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1579 - 25/05/2024 14:54:33    2546975

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Replying To legendzxix:  "League formats are more for professional sports alright like the AFL and URC. While a 12:10:10 format mentioned on a few podcasts sounds great, 11 league rounds is probably too much.
Two groups of six is possibly the best fit for the All-Ireland Football Championship. There would have to be realism in reducing the current league to six rounds however or else starting the league at the beginning of January but detached from the All-Ireland series so that players are free to play for their clubs in the All-Ireland club championships or the third level tournaments."
11 league rounds work, if Prov Championship ties count towards both.

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind seeing two cycles of 12:10:10 - each div split into two groups, one up/one down - AIC (own group round robin), League (crossover inter-group for non repeat fixture variety).

AIC - Top 3 in each group to 6-team KO in respective tiers (lower-tier Finalists go up).

League - Top 1 in each group to Div Finals (lower-tier Finalists go up).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 25/05/2024 14:54:57    2546976

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Replying To omahant:  "11 league rounds work, if Prov Championship ties count towards both.

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind seeing two cycles of 12:10:10 - each div split into two groups, one up/one down - AIC (own group round robin), League (crossover inter-group for non repeat fixture variety).

AIC - Top 3 in each group to 6-team KO in respective tiers (lower-tier Finalists go up).

League - Top 1 in each group to Div Finals (lower-tier Finalists go up)."
The expectation on amateur players can be too much. At most you could probably have 7 group games but then knockout after that over a maximum of 4 rounds. Crossover games is ok for hacks and people on forums but the public at large will have their heads in a spin.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 25/05/2024 18:51:01    2547018

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The expectation on amateur players can be too much. At most you could probably have 7 group games but then knockout after that over a maximum of 4 rounds. Crossover games is ok for hacks and people on forums but the public at large will have their heads in a spin."
No they won't. People are more than used to other sports and crossover games etc.
11 games for amateurs isn't that much. For many inter County players the number of games is far from an issue its the level of training they do that's too much for most not what games they play

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3542 - 25/05/2024 19:00:18    2547024

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Replying To KillingFields:  "No they won't. People are more than used to other sports and crossover games etc.
11 games for amateurs isn't that much. For many inter County players the number of games is far from an issue its the level of training they do that's too much for most not what games they play"
If provincial championships and an 11 game round robin have to be squeezed into 6 months, with at least 3 knockout rounds also to be catered for, a lot of the round robin games will have to be played in blocks of 3 consecutive weekends. If players are ok with that, happy days!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 25/05/2024 19:32:15    2547041

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The expectation on amateur players can be too much. At most you could probably have 7 group games but then knockout after that over a maximum of 4 rounds. Crossover games is ok for hacks and people on forums but the public at large will have their heads in a spin."
Maybe I haven't been clear but I'd award match points for Prov ties which count toward the AIC group/league as well.

So, Donegal beats Derry in Ulster QF, Tyrone (SF) and Armagh (F) - 3 games, six pts - then they play only 8 more games in your 12-team tier (one more than current league, or two less with cancellation of current AIC group phase). It would be 9 more games in my 16-team, 80% round robin (12 of 15 opponents).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 26/05/2024 16:28:22    2547256

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The expectation on amateur players can be too much. At most you could probably have 7 group games but then knockout after that over a maximum of 4 rounds. Crossover games is ok for hacks and people on forums but the public at large will have their heads in a spin."
You might be right - public heads in a spin - but that didn't prevent implementation of the Champions League 'Swiss System' for next season or the URC model, now years in effect.

The URC 'four groups of four' method is primarily to extend the 15-game round robin by 3 more games (to 18) against own-group for a 2nd time - my GAA one, reduces the 15 (to 12) by avoiding 3 own-group teams.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 26/05/2024 16:41:45    2547263

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Replying To omahant:  "You might be right - public heads in a spin - but that didn't prevent implementation of the Champions League 'Swiss System' for next season or the URC model, now years in effect.

The URC 'four groups of four' method is primarily to extend the 15-game round robin by 3 more games (to 18) against own-group for a 2nd time - my GAA one, reduces the 15 (to 12) by avoiding 3 own-group teams."
UEFA made a format mistake before. They had a double group stage. The second group stage was a bit of a turn off so they brought in the Round of 16 that has lasted many years. Time will tell if their Swiss model format is successful. Cavan and Leitrim use a similar system.
The current All-Ireland format is underwhelming. Supporters are voting with their feet. The Division 1 in hurling had no jeopardy and the GAA have moved to correct that. 3 advancing from 4 team groups has low jeopardy. The GAA will have to revisit that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 26/05/2024 18:38:35    2547335

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Replying To legendzxix:  "UEFA made a format mistake before. They had a double group stage. The second group stage was a bit of a turn off so they brought in the Round of 16 that has lasted many years. Time will tell if their Swiss model format is successful. Cavan and Leitrim use a similar system.
The current All-Ireland format is underwhelming. Supporters are voting with their feet. The Division 1 in hurling had no jeopardy and the GAA have moved to correct that. 3 advancing from 4 team groups has low jeopardy. The GAA will have to revisit that."
Indeed - UEFA double group was not successful - and the GAA gradually improves over time.

Cavan and Leitrim haven't changed after multiple editions, so I suppose it works (for them) - Donegal did change back after one year (COVID prompting Swiss System initially).

I like my system because I target a game count for all (12), with Prov ties not being incremental and has two league tables leading to AIC Tier 1 & 2 KO (Tier 3 possible as well).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 26/05/2024 19:47:47    2547366

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Replying To omahant:  "Maybe I haven't been clear but I'd award match points for Prov ties which count toward the AIC group/league as well.

So, Donegal beats Derry in Ulster QF, Tyrone (SF) and Armagh (F) - 3 games, six pts - then they play only 8 more games in your 12-team tier (one more than current league, or two less with cancellation of current AIC group phase). It would be 9 more games in my 16-team, 80% round robin (12 of 15 opponents)."
Once again, novel, but I don't understand how it would work year on year. How are teams relegated/promoted. Do Kerry get to buff their top tier group results with wins over Waterford, Clare, Limerick? Mayo/Galway with Leitrim, London, NY, and Sligo?

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 410 - 26/05/2024 19:52:13    2547371

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Trying to explain this new system to a casual Donegal fan proved this current format is an actual farce.

Great to hear Tyrone but it wasn't like an Ulster Championship match.


Fix the provinces and go back to cut throat football.

Biggest issues with provinces is unequal games means lopsided championship and Leinster has been bullied by Dublin.

I'd love to see a three-year experiment.
Move Donegal and Westmeath into Connacht (closest counties). Ny don't enter
Move Wexford and Dublin into Munster.

4 provinces of eight that will be very equal. Guaranteed quality product.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 228 - 26/05/2024 20:25:32    2547396

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Trying to explain this new system to a casual Donegal fan proved this current format is an actual farce.

Great to hear Tyrone but it wasn't like an Ulster Championship match.


Fix the provinces and go back to cut throat football.

Biggest issues with provinces is unequal games means lopsided championship and Leinster has been bullied by Dublin.

I'd love to see a three-year experiment.
Move Donegal and Westmeath into Connacht (closest counties). Ny don't enter
Move Wexford and Dublin into Munster.

4 provinces of eight that will be very equal. Guaranteed quality product."
Moving teams outside their province and away from traditional rivalries just to get 4 groups of 8 guarantees nothing and in no way guarantees quality

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3542 - 26/05/2024 20:46:24    2547405

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