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Replying To camánouttathat: "I agree the league is our best competition but if we play provincials before or alongside the league with no bearing on championship they will just be like O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cup competitions. Hence why I thought of incorporating league and provincial.
I think if we did go standalone provincials then we should just have All Ireland league championship of 4 divisions. The intercounty calendar needs to be more congested and club calendar more extended but not go back to the days of straight knockout championship where alot of teams will be gone after one or 2 games and so no way to improve these teams." Yeah, there's just an issue where there's a league and league finals and provincials and group stages and preliminary quarterfinals. It's a weird flow of a season, none of the elements are that bad themselves but together they just drag things out too long. A little trimming but still giving inter county players a good program of games is more than possible.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 02/11/2023 18:56:10
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Replying To camánouttathat: "I agree the league is our best competition but if we play provincials before or alongside the league with no bearing on championship they will just be like O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cup competitions. Hence why I thought of incorporating league and provincial.
I think if we did go standalone provincials then we should just have All Ireland league championship of 4 divisions. The intercounty calendar needs to be more congested and club calendar more extended but not go back to the days of straight knockout championship where alot of teams will be gone after one or 2 games and so no way to improve these teams." How about reverting the league to two divisions of 16, each with two groups of 8 (1A/1B & 2A/2B), with the teams from the 'same half of each Provincial draw' put in the same group in each division.
Then, many of the Provincial ties prior to the Finals could 'double up' as league ties as well. This has the triple effect of making the Provincial results meaningful, playing them in parallel with the other league games and keeping the game count down. As Provincial Finals could not be group ties, these would need to be played separately (perhaps, the "two match points" could be added as a "bonus" to the winner's group record, despite the Final being a crossover result).
Top 4 in groups 1A & 1B to Sam crossover KO QFs; top 4 in groups 2A & 2B join bottom 4 in groups 1A & 1B in a "strong" Tailteann Rd of 16 (5th in 1A v 4th in 2B etc, QF 8 to Sam groups in the following year).
Perhaps, if they are up for it, bottom 4 in 2A & 2B to Tier 3 QFs (or just end their season).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 02/11/2023 19:59:56
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Replying To omahant: "How about reverting the league to two divisions of 16, each with two groups of 8 (1A/1B & 2A/2B), with the teams from the 'same half of each Provincial draw' put in the same group in each division.
Then, many of the Provincial ties prior to the Finals could 'double up' as league ties as well. This has the triple effect of making the Provincial results meaningful, playing them in parallel with the other league games and keeping the game count down. As Provincial Finals could not be group ties, these would need to be played separately (perhaps, the "two match points" could be added as a "bonus" to the winner's group record, despite the Final being a crossover result).
Top 4 in groups 1A & 1B to Sam crossover KO QFs; top 4 in groups 2A & 2B join bottom 4 in groups 1A & 1B in a "strong" Tailteann Rd of 16 (5th in 1A v 4th in 2B etc, QF 8 to Sam groups in the following year).
Perhaps, if they are up for it, bottom 4 in 2A & 2B to Tier 3 QFs (or just end their season)." Righto!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 02/11/2023 21:29:35
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I was hoping that they might have changed the running order for Leinster hurling around. Once again likely to be an effective dead rubber in last with Galway and Cats qualified for next round with one of either Dublin or Wexford with outside chance of making final. you have to wonder if the big two are not being seeded. Would make it far more interesting if that was last game.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3118 - 03/11/2023 09:10:27
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I was hoping that they might have changed the running order for Leinster hurling around. Once again likely to be an effective dead rubber in last with Galway and Cats qualified for next round with one of either Dublin or Wexford with outside chance of making final. you have to wonder if the big two are not being seeded. Would make it far more interesting if that was last game." It would be interesting to use the 5 or 6 game schedule of the league to play all remaining "inter-provincial" pairings, so a complete 10 or 11 match round robin league is played instead (Provincial ties 'double up' and not repeated).
With each Prov top 2 contesting respective Finals like now, the Champs could join the league's top 6 of 11 (or 12) in AI QFs (Champs get byes if advancing twice).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 03/11/2023 14:23:25
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I was hoping that they might have changed the running order for Leinster hurling around. Once again likely to be an effective dead rubber in last with Galway and Cats qualified for next round with one of either Dublin or Wexford with outside chance of making final. you have to wonder if the big two are not being seeded. Would make it far more interesting if that was last game." Since the new round-robin group format was introduced in 2018, Galway v Dublin and Kilkenny v Wexford have always been final round fixtures. I can't understand why.
Even if you assume that they (Leinster Council) want the top seeds to play each other in the final round, why don't, say, Galway play Wexford or Kilkenny, instead of Dublin every year.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2654 - 05/11/2023 10:48:32
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Given that in 2024, South America's Copa America are including six guest teams from North & Central America (CONCACAF) in their men's soccer tournament, while four South American guest teams are included in the CONCACAF women's tournament, could the GAA Provincial SFCs get a facelift by adopting a "guest" approach?
Say, the top 4 teams in each Prov get a double chance - 2 winners to "home" Prov SFs, 2 losers as "guests" to Prov QFs, one each to two neighbouring Provs.
All other teams outside the "top 4s" compete for two QF berths in their "home" Provs and compete against the guests, with the two winners going to Prov SFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 07/11/2023 05:28:23
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Replying To omahant: "Given that in 2024, South America's Copa America are including six guest teams from North & Central America (CONCACAF) in their men's soccer tournament, while four South American guest teams are included in the CONCACAF women's tournament, could the GAA Provincial SFCs get a facelift by adopting a "guest" approach?
Say, the top 4 teams in each Prov get a double chance - 2 winners to "home" Prov SFs, 2 losers as "guests" to Prov QFs, one each to two neighbouring Provs.
All other teams outside the "top 4s" compete for two QF berths in their "home" Provs and compete against the guests, with the two winners going to Prov SFs." At least you soared us a new system on 6th November....
Some progress!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 07/11/2023 11:58:01
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Replying To omahant: "Given that in 2024, South America's Copa America are including six guest teams from North & Central America (CONCACAF) in their men's soccer tournament, while four South American guest teams are included in the CONCACAF women's tournament, could the GAA Provincial SFCs get a facelift by adopting a "guest" approach?
Say, the top 4 teams in each Prov get a double chance - 2 winners to "home" Prov SFs, 2 losers as "guests" to Prov QFs, one each to two neighbouring Provs.
All other teams outside the "top 4s" compete for two QF berths in their "home" Provs and compete against the guests, with the two winners going to Prov SFs." No guest teams. Just do away with the provinces instead.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 07/11/2023 14:33:43
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Replying To Whammo86: "No guest teams. Just do away with the provinces instead." Big picture, I suppose that's the best - you don't value your own Ulster Championship anymore?
My preference would be to play the Provinces as a subset of a team's regular season schedule (doubling up for match points) - should keep everyone happy, especially Brian McAvoy.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 07/11/2023 20:19:27
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Replying To Whammo86: "No guest teams. Just do away with the provinces instead." Wham, currently the first ever "NBA Cup" is in progress - a tournament where the results count towards the regular season as well.
https://www.nba.com/news/in-season-tournament-101
GAA could do something similar with the Provincial Championships and possibly combine with the league and group phase as well (maybe an all-in, less rushed 10 game season, prior to AIC KO stage).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 07/11/2023 20:35:56
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Replying To omahant: "Big picture, I suppose that's the best - you don't value your own Ulster Championship anymore?
My preference would be to play the Provinces as a subset of a team's regular season schedule (doubling up for match points) - should keep everyone happy, especially Brian McAvoy." I do value it but I think it's worse for the game overall to continue with it.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 08/11/2023 10:49:04
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Since the new round-robin group format was introduced in 2018, Galway v Dublin and Kilkenny v Wexford have always been final round fixtures. I can't understand why.
Even if you assume that they (Leinster Council) want the top seeds to play each other in the final round, why don't, say, Galway play Wexford or Kilkenny, instead of Dublin every year." They want the two weakest teams to play each other on the final day.
bruffgael (Limerick) - Posts: 201 - 14/11/2023 20:54:57
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A straightforward ranking table in football is a combination of championship and league performance:
1 - Dublin - All-Ireland - Winner - League 7
2 - Kerry - All-Ireland - Runners-up - League 5
3 - Monaghan - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 6
4 - Derry - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 8
5 - Mayo - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 1
6 - Tyrone - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 4
7 - Armagh - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 9
8 - Cork - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 12
9 - Galway - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 2
10 - Roscommon - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 3
11 - Donegal - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 10
12 - Kildare - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 13
13 - Louth - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 11
14 - Clare - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 17
15 - Westmeath - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 20
16 - Sligo - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 23
17 - Meath - Tailteann - Winner - League 14
18 - Down - Tailteann - Runners-up - League 19
19 - Antrim - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 22
20 - Laois - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 27
21 - Cavan - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 15
22 - Limerick - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 18
23 - Wexford - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 29
24 - Carlow - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 30
25 - Fermanagh - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 16
26 - Offaly - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 21
27 - Longford - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 25
28 - Tipperary - Tailteann - Group 3rd - League 26
29 - Wicklow - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 24
30 - Leitrim - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 28
31 - Waterford - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 31
32 - London - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 32
If the above was used for seeding provincial draws, provincial draws can be more balanced.
ULSTER
1. Monaghan
2. Derry
3. Tyrone
4. Armagh
5. Donegal
6. Down
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh
PRELIMINARY ROUND
Cavan v Fermanagh
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Monaghan, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh.
Bowl B: Donegal, Down, Antrim and Preliminary Round winner.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Monaghan or QF opponent and 2. Derry or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Tyrone or QF opponent and 4. Armagh or QF opponent.
LEINSTER
1. Dublin
2. Kildare
3. Louth
4. Westmeath
5. Meath
6. Laois
7. Wexford
8. Carlow
9. Offaly
10. Longford
11. Wicklow
PRELIMINARY ROUND
Bowl A: Laois, Wexford and Carlow.
Bowl B: Offaly, Longford and Wicklow.
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Dublin, Louth, Kildare and Westmeath.
Bowl B: Meath and 3 Preliminary Round winners.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Dublin or QF opponent and 2. Kildare or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Louth or QF opponent and 4. Westmeath or QF opponent.
MUNSTER
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Clare
4. Limerick
5. Tipperary
6. Waterford
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Clare and Limerick.
Bowl B: Tipperary and Waterford.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Kerry and 2. Cork.
Bowl B: 2 Quarter-final winners.
CONNACHT
1. Mayo
2. Galway
3. Roscommon
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim
6. London
QUARTER-FINALS
London v Galway*
New York v Mayo*
Sligo** v Leitrim**
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Mayo or New York and 2. Galway or London.
Bowl B: Roscommon** and Sligo or Leitrim.
* Rotation of counties taking on London or New York retained.
** Roscommon as highest remaining seed given bye to semi-final.
Meath lost out on an All-Ireland place last year because Sligo got a lucky draw in a different provincial championship. It's an argument for all provinces to have an agreed seeding. In that scenario, Sligo would then have one of the top 2 seeds on their side of the draw. If Sligo get to a Connacht final in that scenario, they are there on fairer merit.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 07/01/2024 10:52:19
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "I was hoping that they might have changed the running order for Leinster hurling around. Once again likely to be an effective dead rubber in last with Galway and Cats qualified for next round with one of either Dublin or Wexford with outside chance of making final. you have to wonder if the big two are not being seeded. Would make it far more interesting if that was last game." I think that would help the championship too.
Although Leinster have always been protective of the final pairing.
Pre Galway I remember it being set up so Wexford and Kilkenny couldn't meet untill the final so it would look better on the telly next to Munster final
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3142 - 07/01/2024 16:28:29
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Replying To Doylerwex: "I think that would help the championship too.
Although Leinster have always been protective of the final pairing.
Pre Galway I remember it being set up so Wexford and Kilkenny couldn't meet untill the final so it would look better on the telly next to Munster final" The final day pairings in Leinster has 1st v 4th, 2nd v 3rd and 5th v 6th from 2023. Depending on results, Galway v Dublin could be effectively a semi-final. Antrim v Carlow is a fair pairing as it's probably a relegation final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 07/01/2024 19:11:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "A straightforward ranking table in football is a combination of championship and league performance:
1 - Dublin - All-Ireland - Winner - League 7
2 - Kerry - All-Ireland - Runners-up - League 5
3 - Monaghan - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 6
4 - Derry - All-Ireland - Semi-final - League 8
5 - Mayo - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 1
6 - Tyrone - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 4
7 - Armagh - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 9
8 - Cork - All-Ireland - Quarter-final - League 12
9 - Galway - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 2
10 - Roscommon - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 3
11 - Donegal - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 10
12 - Kildare - All-Ireland - Pre-Quarter-final - League 13
13 - Louth - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 11
14 - Clare - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 17
15 - Westmeath - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 20
16 - Sligo - All-Ireland - Group 4th - League 23
17 - Meath - Tailteann - Winner - League 14
18 - Down - Tailteann - Runners-up - League 19
19 - Antrim - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 22
20 - Laois - Tailteann - Semi-final - League 27
21 - Cavan - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 15
22 - Limerick - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 18
23 - Wexford - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 29
24 - Carlow - Tailteann - Quarter-final - League 30
25 - Fermanagh - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 16
26 - Offaly - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 21
27 - Longford - Tailteann - Pre-Quarter-final - League 25
28 - Tipperary - Tailteann - Group 3rd - League 26
29 - Wicklow - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 24
30 - Leitrim - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 28
31 - Waterford - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 31
32 - London - Tailteann - Group 4th - League 32
If the above was used for seeding provincial draws, provincial draws can be more balanced.
ULSTER
1. Monaghan
2. Derry
3. Tyrone
4. Armagh
5. Donegal
6. Down
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh
PRELIMINARY ROUND
Cavan v Fermanagh
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Monaghan, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh.
Bowl B: Donegal, Down, Antrim and Preliminary Round winner.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Monaghan or QF opponent and 2. Derry or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Tyrone or QF opponent and 4. Armagh or QF opponent.
LEINSTER
1. Dublin
2. Kildare
3. Louth
4. Westmeath
5. Meath
6. Laois
7. Wexford
8. Carlow
9. Offaly
10. Longford
11. Wicklow
PRELIMINARY ROUND
Bowl A: Laois, Wexford and Carlow.
Bowl B: Offaly, Longford and Wicklow.
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Dublin, Louth, Kildare and Westmeath.
Bowl B: Meath and 3 Preliminary Round winners.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Dublin or QF opponent and 2. Kildare or QF opponent.
Bowl B: 3. Louth or QF opponent and 4. Westmeath or QF opponent.
MUNSTER
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Clare
4. Limerick
5. Tipperary
6. Waterford
QUARTER-FINALS
Bowl A: Clare and Limerick.
Bowl B: Tipperary and Waterford.
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Kerry and 2. Cork.
Bowl B: 2 Quarter-final winners.
CONNACHT
1. Mayo
2. Galway
3. Roscommon
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim
6. London
QUARTER-FINALS
London v Galway*
New York v Mayo*
Sligo** v Leitrim**
SEMI-FINALS
Bowl A: 1. Mayo or New York and 2. Galway or London.
Bowl B: Roscommon** and Sligo or Leitrim.
* Rotation of counties taking on London or New York retained.
** Roscommon as highest remaining seed given bye to semi-final.
Meath lost out on an All-Ireland place last year because Sligo got a lucky draw in a different provincial championship. It's an argument for all provinces to have an agreed seeding. In that scenario, Sligo would then have one of the top 2 seeds on their side of the draw. If Sligo get to a Connacht final in that scenario, they are there on fairer merit." Makes sense. I also feel teams could play a streamlined season combined 10 games each, before a Sam 16 & Tailteann 16 KO split.
Each team plays a mixed-quality 10 games, including 2 games against each of 4 seeding pots (or league divisions), incorporating Provincial Championship and replacing current league.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 08/01/2024 13:31:00
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Replying To omahant: "Makes sense. I also feel teams could play a streamlined season combined 10 games each, before a Sam 16 & Tailteann 16 KO split.
Each team plays a mixed-quality 10 games, including 2 games against each of 4 seeding pots (or league divisions), incorporating Provincial Championship and replacing current league." I don't see combining games taking off. The GAA like going from one tournament to another in defined blocks: Preseason, League, Provincial Championship and All-Ireland/Tailteann.
Leinster and Ulster have 3 rounds before provincial finals. Connacht and Munster have 2 rounds before provincial finals. With the failure to complete club finals in December, I'd favour cutting the league link to championship so that club players aren't hurried back for All-Ireland qualification. One option I see is bringing back qualifiers for the 7 All-Ireland spots outside of provincial finalists and Tailteann winner.
WEEK 1
Provincial Round 1:
Connacht and Munster Quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster Preliminary Round. (8 teams, excluding the NY quarter-final.)
WEEK 2
Provincial Round 2:
Connacht and Munster Semi-finals. Leinster and Ulster Quarter-finals. (12 teams)
Qualifier Round 1:
8 Provincial Round 1 losers. (8 to 4)
WEEK 3
Provincial Round 3:
Leinster and Ulster Semi-finals. (8 teams)
Qualifier Round 2:
12 Provincial Round 2 losers and 4 Qualifier Round 1 winners. (16 to 8)
WEEK 4
Qualifier Round 3:
4 Provincial Round 3 losers and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners. (12 to 7, Note: Some counties would receive a bye from Qualifier Round 3, or a previous round, based on previous year's Championship Ranking.)
WEEK 5
Connacht and Munster finals.
WEEK 6
Leinster and Ulster finals.
WEEK 7 ONWARDS
All-Ireland group stage: 8 provincial finalists, 1 Tailteann winner and 7 qualifiers. (16 teams)
Tailteann group stage: All remaining counties. (16 teams for group stage and New York entering at the preliminary quarter-final round.)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 08/01/2024 18:35:01
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Replying To legendzxix: "I don't see combining games taking off. The GAA like going from one tournament to another in defined blocks: Preseason, League, Provincial Championship and All-Ireland/Tailteann.
Leinster and Ulster have 3 rounds before provincial finals. Connacht and Munster have 2 rounds before provincial finals. With the failure to complete club finals in December, I'd favour cutting the league link to championship so that club players aren't hurried back for All-Ireland qualification. One option I see is bringing back qualifiers for the 7 All-Ireland spots outside of provincial finalists and Tailteann winner.
WEEK 1
Provincial Round 1:
Connacht and Munster Quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster Preliminary Round. (8 teams, excluding the NY quarter-final.)
WEEK 2
Provincial Round 2:
Connacht and Munster Semi-finals. Leinster and Ulster Quarter-finals. (12 teams)
Qualifier Round 1:
8 Provincial Round 1 losers. (8 to 4)
WEEK 3
Provincial Round 3:
Leinster and Ulster Semi-finals. (8 teams)
Qualifier Round 2:
12 Provincial Round 2 losers and 4 Qualifier Round 1 winners. (16 to 8)
WEEK 4
Qualifier Round 3:
4 Provincial Round 3 losers and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners. (12 to 7, Note: Some counties would receive a bye from Qualifier Round 3, or a previous round, based on previous year's Championship Ranking.)
WEEK 5
Connacht and Munster finals.
WEEK 6
Leinster and Ulster finals.
WEEK 7 ONWARDS
All-Ireland group stage: 8 provincial finalists, 1 Tailteann winner and 7 qualifiers. (16 teams)
Tailteann group stage: All remaining counties. (16 teams for group stage and New York entering at the preliminary quarter-final round.)" It will be interesting to see if people will have a preference for the old Qualifiers (with its KO element, but grew stale) after experiencing a few low-impact group stage editions in the years ahead.
I prefer one of my 'very few' (not enough you say) prior ideas:
8 teams to Prov Finals, other 24 to 8 groups of 3.
Prov Champs' Playoff Rd: 4 teams
Qual Rd 1: 20 teams = group top 2s + 4 losing Finalists.
Qual Rd 2: 10 Rd 1 winners + 2 Playoff losers
AI KO QFs: 6 Rd 2 winners + 2 Playoff winners
Or, Wham's:
Qual Rd 1: 16 lowest ranked 'non-Prov Final' league teams.
Qual Rd 2: Next 8 lowest ranked 'non-Prov Champ' league teams + 8 Rd 1 winners.
KO Rd of 16: Other 8 + 8 Rd 2 winners.
Everything considered, my overall preference now that we've moved on to an AIC group stage, is to have a 10-game (or 12) 'Swiss System' regular season (like next year's Champions League) incorporating the Provincial Championships' results and replacing the current league.
After Prov pairings, the remainder of the 10-12 opponents for each team could be chosen from within a ranking range of say 16 places [e.g. team 25 (Div 4 Champ quality) could play a team ranked no higher than 9 (Div 2 quality] - so, the Ulster Champ plays a few weak teams from the other three provs, and Dublin would play a few 'Div 1' teams nationally.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 08/01/2024 22:56:24
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Any chance ye might come up with something simple chaps?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 08/01/2024 23:04:56
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