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Provincial Championships 2024

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Replying To omahant:  "It's always arguable whether mixed quality or ranked groups are better - take the Rugby Union World Cup - there were some ugly mismatches, but at the same time, giving Georgia, Uruguay and Portugal more quality games seems to be the way to go for them to develop - there needs to be a balance - say, South Africa plays no team ranked lower than 15th - but I'd keep Tyrone v Limerick in your example.

Back to GAA NFL - How about keeping Div 4 as is (renamed something else), but mix up the rest in 4 groups of 6 (two from each of divs 1 to 3) - four groups winners to SFs, four last teams to relegation SFs, two loser v last div top 2 for two other 'top 24' places?"
We have a system, it's in for next year.
Time to ease up on the "new system a day" posts!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 29/10/2023 10:38:18    2510812

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Replying To omahant:  "It's always arguable whether mixed quality or ranked groups are better - take the Rugby Union World Cup - there were some ugly mismatches, but at the same time, giving Georgia, Uruguay and Portugal more quality games seems to be the way to go for them to develop - there needs to be a balance - say, South Africa plays no team ranked lower than 15th - but I'd keep Tyrone v Limerick in your example.

Back to GAA NFL - How about keeping Div 4 as is (renamed something else), but mix up the rest in 4 groups of 6 (two from each of divs 1 to 3) - four groups winners to SFs, four last teams to relegation SFs, two loser v last div top 2 for two other 'top 24' places?"
You seem to be forgetting the window we have to play all the intercounty games, and the fact that the NFL has been devalued as a competition on account of lack of jeopardy.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13861 - 29/10/2023 10:43:27    2510814

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Replying To Viking66:  "You seem to be forgetting the window we have to play all the intercounty games, and the fact that the NFL has been devalued as a competition on account of lack of jeopardy."
"You seem to be forgetting" that league places are all important in the revamped AIC, so I don't get the lack of jeopardy argument, unless you are crossing your lines with hurling. Those four smaller divs would only have 5 league games, and leave room for SFs, Final, relegation SFs and Final.

Looking at my rugby points, and as it relates to GAA as well - would you include some minnows to widen the sport or keep the closed shop? - where do you draw the lines? - I really think it's a tough call - do have a 20/12 split instead for Sam/Tailteann?, or a 16, 20 or 24 teams NFL div 1 (like where the Rugby World Cup is going)?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 30/10/2023 02:58:14    2510891

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "We have a system, it's in for next year.
Time to ease up on the "new system a day" posts!"
Well bless you for trying anyway...

Londonish (UK) - Posts: 33 - 30/10/2023 11:15:14    2510920

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Replying To omahant:  ""You seem to be forgetting" that league places are all important in the revamped AIC, so I don't get the lack of jeopardy argument, unless you are crossing your lines with hurling. Those four smaller divs would only have 5 league games, and leave room for SFs, Final, relegation SFs and Final.

Looking at my rugby points, and as it relates to GAA as well - would you include some minnows to widen the sport or keep the closed shop? - where do you draw the lines? - I really think it's a tough call - do have a 20/12 split instead for Sam/Tailteann?, or a 16, 20 or 24 teams NFL div 1 (like where the Rugby World Cup is going)?"
I was talking about the hurling omahant.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13861 - 30/10/2023 11:37:44    2510924

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Replying To omahant:  ""You seem to be forgetting" that league places are all important in the revamped AIC, so I don't get the lack of jeopardy argument, unless you are crossing your lines with hurling. Those four smaller divs would only have 5 league games, and leave room for SFs, Final, relegation SFs and Final.

Looking at my rugby points, and as it relates to GAA as well - would you include some minnows to widen the sport or keep the closed shop? - where do you draw the lines? - I really think it's a tough call - do have a 20/12 split instead for Sam/Tailteann?, or a 16, 20 or 24 teams NFL div 1 (like where the Rugby World Cup is going)?"
The NFL was a typo or predictive text cock up sorry lad! Should've been NHL!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13861 - 30/10/2023 11:38:48    2510925

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Replying To omahant:  "It's always arguable whether mixed quality or ranked groups are better - take the Rugby Union World Cup - there were some ugly mismatches, but at the same time, giving Georgia, Uruguay and Portugal more quality games seems to be the way to go for them to develop - there needs to be a balance - say, South Africa plays no team ranked lower than 15th - but I'd keep Tyrone v Limerick in your example.

Back to GAA NFL - How about keeping Div 4 as is (renamed something else), but mix up the rest in 4 groups of 6 (two from each of divs 1 to 3) - four groups winners to SFs, four last teams to relegation SFs, two loser v last div top 2 for two other 'top 24' places?"
Been aware of rugby for over 50 years, and I've never seen a team 'develop' yet, outside of the 5 nations, and perhaps 4to6 more southern hemisphere sides. The rwc is running since 1987, and clearly has never developed a new 'power' of any kind. Hardly any wisdom in copying the rwc approach, with a track record like that, let alone lauding it's development capacity.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3875 - 30/10/2023 17:59:50    2510959

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "We have a system, it's in for next year.
Time to ease up on the "new system a day" posts!"
Too true.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 386 - 30/10/2023 18:00:07    2510960

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OK, let's talk hurling. Given the AIC Prov Groups, this has made the league less valuable. As teams are playing 4 or 5 opponents in the Prov Groups, why not use the 5 rounds of the league to play all remaining opponents and complete a full 10-match round robin.

The top 2 in each Prov Group (4/5 games) could still play the Prov Finals, with the two Champs joining the 'top 6 of 11' in the 10-match league table in the AIC KO (Prov results double up, ties played once).

This would seem fairer as the 3rd Lein team would have to outperform the 4th Muns team over 10 matches to advance. Prov Champs get byes like now, if they advance twice (very likely).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 30/10/2023 18:04:50    2510961

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By the way, in Nov for the first time, the US NBA is playing a tournament-style (6 groups of 5) and 8-team KO phase for the "NBA Cup". However, all tournament ties are a subset of the regular season (except the stand alone Final), so results will count towards both and there is no increase in games (except one Final).

My hurling idea is along similar lines - I think you really can have your cake and eat it too !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 30/10/2023 18:14:34    2510963

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Replying To omahant:  "By the way, in Nov for the first time, the US NBA is playing a tournament-style (6 groups of 5) and 8-team KO phase for the "NBA Cup". However, all tournament ties are a subset of the regular season (except the stand alone Final), so results will count towards both and there is no increase in games (except one Final).

My hurling idea is along similar lines - I think you really can have your cake and eat it too !"
Is there any other sport you want to compare intercounty amateur football and hurling competition formats with? Played outdoors in all sorts of weather, pitch conditions, amateur referees, linesmen, umpires and within a schedule that accommodates club football, college football and in many case players playing club, college and intercounty in the same year. At least try a like for like comparison.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 30/10/2023 22:12:21    2510994

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Replying To omahant:  "By the way, in Nov for the first time, the US NBA is playing a tournament-style (6 groups of 5) and 8-team KO phase for the "NBA Cup". However, all tournament ties are a subset of the regular season (except the stand alone Final), so results will count towards both and there is no increase in games (except one Final).

My hurling idea is along similar lines - I think you really can have your cake and eat it too !"
Will ye for Jesus sake let it go. All i ever see from you is E =mc2, 3.1415, 2n x r , Yanks can do what they want but not here.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2150 - 30/10/2023 22:50:43    2510996

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So, as you couldn't poke holes in my "OK, let's talk hurling" post - you "say nothing" instead?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 01/11/2023 04:16:33    2511120

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We've got a format for next year. Whatever it is what it is.

There are big issues with it. The balance between the intercounty game and club game is not right.

The new system has helped increase the minimum number of games teams play and that's a big positive but the successful teams have the potential to play too many games.

A team could play 8 league, 4 provincial and 7 All Ireland games and I don't know it just feels too much when club players are only being guaranteed 4 or fewer championship matches per code in a lot of counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 01/11/2023 12:44:52    2511161

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Replying To Whammo86:  "We've got a format for next year. Whatever it is what it is.

There are big issues with it. The balance between the intercounty game and club game is not right.

The new system has helped increase the minimum number of games teams play and that's a big positive but the successful teams have the potential to play too many games.

A team could play 8 league, 4 provincial and 7 All Ireland games and I don't know it just feels too much when club players are only being guaranteed 4 or fewer championship matches per code in a lot of counties."
I personally would get rid of the league and have provincial round robins. Where you come in the group also determines seeding for talteann so try eliminate dead rubber games.

Leinster I'd have London join the province and then 2 groups 6 top 4 to semis and 2 3rd place play in playoff. Winner goes to all Ireland series loser joins Talteann. Group games home and away. Even Dublin have to play games beyond the m50 !! /s

Connaught top 2 go through to final,3rd place All Ireland back door, bottom 2 go to Talteann

Munster top 2 go to final,3rd go to all Ireland back door, bottom 3 go to Talteann

Ulster 2 groups 5 &4. Top 2 through to semi final 3 place playoff winner through to All Ireland back door.

First round Back door be 2 Leinster semi final losers and 3rd place playoff winner,3rd place Munster, 3rd place Connaught and 2 Ulster semi final losers and 3rd place playoff winner.

4 winners of this play provincial losers in Rd 2, 4 winners this plays provincial winners in quarters and so on.

Talteann teams put in 2 pots depending on where they placed in provincial league. Pot 1 of 8 teams be Leinster 3rd place loser and 2 4th place teams, Connaught 4th place,Munster 4th place and Ulster 3rd place loser and 2 4th place teams.

Pot 2 of 8 teams be Leinster 5th and 6th place teams, Connaught 5th place,Munster 5th and 6th and ulster 5th place from the group of 5.

Talteann round robin 4 groups of 4 top teams go through to semi final. Each group has one game at home,one away and one at croke park to be played as double header/ triple header with all Ireland series game so even so called weaker counties who might never get the chance get to play at croke park.

The provincial league could start Paddy's weekend and be finished by start of July with few rest weeks in between different rounds. All teams would get at least 7 games for likes of limerick,Leitrim,Antrim London and Carlow against top teams such as Tyrone,Dublin,mayo, Kerry and aswell as against Div 3 and 4 sides and have chance of winning provincial and some other silverware. Also more local rivalries been played more often in championship setting,more championship games in your county ground which should increase interest. How many people travel from Wexford,Waterford,Carlow, Tipperary to Leitrim,Antrim,Sligo or vice versa during the league? More people might be willing to travel if say Wexford at most only have to travel 2 and half hours rather than nearly 4 to Belfast or Sligo. Also games could be double headed with the hurling for provincial league.

If county championship final was in start of July, it would allow counties more weeks to complete their club championships and not have so much congestion

The only thing is New York which I can't decide if should be added to a group in Talteann to make a group of 5 or have the winners of talteann get a trip to play New York in new york. If added to group of 5,New York play 4 games at home with traveling team getting a bye week after playing New York.

camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 55 - 02/11/2023 09:18:34    2511246

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Replying To camánouttathat:  "I personally would get rid of the league and have provincial round robins. Where you come in the group also determines seeding for talteann so try eliminate dead rubber games.

Leinster I'd have London join the province and then 2 groups 6 top 4 to semis and 2 3rd place play in playoff. Winner goes to all Ireland series loser joins Talteann. Group games home and away. Even Dublin have to play games beyond the m50 !! /s

Connaught top 2 go through to final,3rd place All Ireland back door, bottom 2 go to Talteann

Munster top 2 go to final,3rd go to all Ireland back door, bottom 3 go to Talteann

Ulster 2 groups 5 &4. Top 2 through to semi final 3 place playoff winner through to All Ireland back door.

First round Back door be 2 Leinster semi final losers and 3rd place playoff winner,3rd place Munster, 3rd place Connaught and 2 Ulster semi final losers and 3rd place playoff winner.

4 winners of this play provincial losers in Rd 2, 4 winners this plays provincial winners in quarters and so on.

Talteann teams put in 2 pots depending on where they placed in provincial league. Pot 1 of 8 teams be Leinster 3rd place loser and 2 4th place teams, Connaught 4th place,Munster 4th place and Ulster 3rd place loser and 2 4th place teams.

Pot 2 of 8 teams be Leinster 5th and 6th place teams, Connaught 5th place,Munster 5th and 6th and ulster 5th place from the group of 5.

Talteann round robin 4 groups of 4 top teams go through to semi final. Each group has one game at home,one away and one at croke park to be played as double header/ triple header with all Ireland series game so even so called weaker counties who might never get the chance get to play at croke park.

The provincial league could start Paddy's weekend and be finished by start of July with few rest weeks in between different rounds. All teams would get at least 7 games for likes of limerick,Leitrim,Antrim London and Carlow against top teams such as Tyrone,Dublin,mayo, Kerry and aswell as against Div 3 and 4 sides and have chance of winning provincial and some other silverware. Also more local rivalries been played more often in championship setting,more championship games in your county ground which should increase interest. How many people travel from Wexford,Waterford,Carlow, Tipperary to Leitrim,Antrim,Sligo or vice versa during the league? More people might be willing to travel if say Wexford at most only have to travel 2 and half hours rather than nearly 4 to Belfast or Sligo. Also games could be double headed with the hurling for provincial league.

If county championship final was in start of July, it would allow counties more weeks to complete their club championships and not have so much congestion

The only thing is New York which I can't decide if should be added to a group in Talteann to make a group of 5 or have the winners of talteann get a trip to play New York in new york. If added to group of 5,New York play 4 games at home with traveling team getting a bye week after playing New York."
The league is arguably our best competition. The system we have now is nearly there in my opinion.

The only changes I would make is make the provincials as standalone competitions replacing the pre season competitions and played before or alongside the league.

drumalee11 (USA) - Posts: 329 - 02/11/2023 10:00:09    2511249

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I'd favour playing Provincials in the same timeframe as the NFL, with 4 weekends set aside for them. Similar to Cup Competitions in Soccer.
Also favour abolishing League Finals.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 02/11/2023 11:19:05    2511265

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I'd favour playing Provincials in the same timeframe as the NFL, with 4 weekends set aside for them. Similar to Cup Competitions in Soccer.
Also favour abolishing League Finals."
Both of those things would be essential changes in my mind.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 02/11/2023 12:02:53    2511278

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Even then I think the balance is off with inter-county getting February to July and club championship really just getting August to October.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 02/11/2023 12:04:52    2511279

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Replying To drumalee11:  "The league is arguably our best competition. The system we have now is nearly there in my opinion.

The only changes I would make is make the provincials as standalone competitions replacing the pre season competitions and played before or alongside the league."
I agree the league is our best competition but if we play provincials before or alongside the league with no bearing on championship they will just be like O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cup competitions. Hence why I thought of incorporating league and provincial.

I think if we did go standalone provincials then we should just have All Ireland league championship of 4 divisions. The intercounty calendar needs to be more congested and club calendar more extended but not go back to the days of straight knockout championship where alot of teams will be gone after one or 2 games and so no way to improve these teams.

camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 55 - 02/11/2023 12:27:19    2511282

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