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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Is the simple solution to not just have the national championship organised on a national basis.

All the engineering that has to go on to come up with something to be fair and meet everyone's needs is just evidence that the Provincial system doesn't make sense.

People laud the Munster championship and you can talk about the magic of Provincial rivalries but in an All Ireland nationally organised you'd still get plenty of Munster only fixtures, you'd get other interesting rivalries developing too. Clare v Galway, Tipp v Kilkenny, Wexford v Waterford all happening more often.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 29/06/2023 16:48:50    2490705

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's only a semi serious suggestion Pikeman! But it would mean more evenly competitive games for Munster and Leinster counties and Galway, as well as, most importantly, more competitive games for middle tier counties which might help bring up the standard there.
A second tier with 1 up and 1 down something like it is now. If an Ulster/Connacht team wins the 2nd tier they replace whoever finishes last in Munster. If a Leinster team wins it they replace whoever finishes last in Leinster.
Scrap the League semis and finals, whoever finishes top wins like a league should be, and that would give the extra couple of weekends needed. And give any of the Ulster counties involved in Munster a travelling allowance. Galways travelling costs would be reduced as they border 2 Munster counties as it is."
We must remember serious or not Joe Mcdonagh was set up to placate Offaly,Laois,Westmeath,Carlow etc because Leinster were throwing them out of their own championship to accomodate Galway.I say to those 4 counties and all of the other Leinster counties why should we suffer because they had a 5 horse race in Munster for 3 places.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1470 - 29/06/2023 16:59:23    2490712

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Replying To jobber:  "We must remember serious or not Joe Mcdonagh was set up to placate Offaly,Laois,Westmeath,Carlow etc because Leinster were throwing them out of their own championship to accomodate Galway.I say to those 4 counties and all of the other Leinster counties why should we suffer because they had a 5 horse race in Munster for 3 places."
Agree 100%. Up to that point even Meath entered a team most years in Leinster. Maybe scrap the League semis and finals and run the Munster and Leinster Championships as they used to be just for Leinster and Munster counties as straight knockout for Munster and Leinster counties, with an Ulster Championship also which would likely be won by Antrim, Down or Derry most years, then run a 12 team AI series in 2 groups of 6, 1st 5 in Leinster and Munster plus Galway and whoever wins Ulster, with the winner of each group straight through to the AIF, which would save 4 more weeks, or even top 2 in each group through to an AISF.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12216 - 30/06/2023 09:07:02    2490771

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Replying To jobber:  "We must remember serious or not Joe Mcdonagh was set up to placate Offaly,Laois,Westmeath,Carlow etc because Leinster were throwing them out of their own championship to accomodate Galway.I say to those 4 counties and all of the other Leinster counties why should we suffer because they had a 5 horse race in Munster for 3 places."
"Throwing them out" is an emotive term. Another choice of words might be "restructuring".

It must be remembered too that all the counties you mention voted to accept the new McDonagh Cup when the finer details of it were worked out, and that Offaly weren't even immediately "thrown out" of Leinster - they competed in the first year of the provincial round-robin in 2018 before being relegated.

Also, it could be argued that the McDonagh Cup as it stands actually serves such counties better, and gives them greater things to aim for. Under the former system of a preliminary round-robin in Leinster, they played against counties of a broadly equal standard for nothing more than a chance to play a Leinster quarter-final. Now they're playing counties of a broadly equal standard for a chance to win a trophy and go straight into the All-Ireland series.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2262 - 30/06/2023 11:09:38    2490804

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The Munster championship is no doubt the blue riband of the hurling calendar, but lets be real nobody remembers who won Munster year in year out.
If 4 out of 5 teams qualify in Munster, then these matches would lose so much meaning. The province is one team slipping away from being totally predictable. Its easy to laud it when 5 teams are competitive.
There is no easy answer but the setup is totally lop-sided at the moment and that Wexford playing in the Liam McCarthy cup was a hit of a ball away from being relegated whereas there is no such peril in Munster, while they complain about 2 teams out of 5 being knocked out, is laughable.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1741 - 30/06/2023 11:31:12    2490810

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Imagine Leinster hurling without Galway. Procession for Kilkenny virtually every year

Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1514 - 30/06/2023 11:54:32    2490823

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "Imagine Leinster hurling without Galway. Procession for Kilkenny virtually every year"
Galway have definitely added competition but have still only ever won 3 Leinster titles and haven't won a Leinster final since 2018.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12216 - 30/06/2023 12:25:22    2490827

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Replying To Claretandblue:  "Imagine Leinster hurling without Galway. Procession for Kilkenny virtually every year"
Well, they don't have it all their own way v Wexford very often. If Galway weren't in Leinster I'd suspect Wexford would have won more Leinster titles given their great record v Kilkenny. As I said on their own board, beating Kilkenny seems to fix every other evil!

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1144 - 30/06/2023 16:44:53    2490882

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Well, they don't have it all their own way v Wexford very often. If Galway weren't in Leinster I'd suspect Wexford would have won more Leinster titles given their great record v Kilkenny. As I said on their own board, beating Kilkenny seems to fix every other evil!"
They may not always have it their own way against Wexford, but unfortunately, they do more often than not.

Wexford haven't actually beaten Galway in the championship since they entered Leinster back in 2009. In seven matches, the record is two draws (2019 and 2022) and five defeats (2010, 2017, 2018, 2020 and 2023).

Overall score difference is 51 in favour in Galway, meaning the average margin in those five defeats is just over ten points.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2262 - 01/07/2023 01:19:40    2490922

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "They may not always have it their own way against Wexford, but unfortunately, they do more often than not.

Wexford haven't actually beaten Galway in the championship since they entered Leinster back in 2009. In seven matches, the record is two draws (2019 and 2022) and five defeats (2010, 2017, 2018, 2020 and 2023).

Overall score difference is 51 in favour in Galway, meaning the average margin in those five defeats is just over ten points."
Think he was talking about Kilkenny not Galway?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12216 - 01/07/2023 08:43:12    2490934

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Replying To Pikeman96:  ""Throwing them out" is an emotive term. Another choice of words might be "restructuring".

It must be remembered too that all the counties you mention voted to accept the new McDonagh Cup when the finer details of it were worked out, and that Offaly weren't even immediately "thrown out" of Leinster - they competed in the first year of the provincial round-robin in 2018 before being relegated.

Also, it could be argued that the McDonagh Cup as it stands actually serves such counties better, and gives them greater things to aim for. Under the former system of a preliminary round-robin in Leinster, they played against counties of a broadly equal standard for nothing more than a chance to play a Leinster quarter-final. Now they're playing counties of a broadly equal standard for a chance to win a trophy and go straight into the All-Ireland series."
i dont disagree with anything you say.However we have a LEINSTER hurling championship and the Leinster counties were promised this.So if people want to change at our expense let them sort out Galway and Antrim.What are the Connacht and Ulster councils doing for hurling?Not a lot apparently.So let Mcdonagh alone.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1470 - 01/07/2023 09:29:35    2490940

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The Leinster Championship was 9 teams before the round robin came in. Westmeath, Offaly and Laois could get stroppy and demand an expanded Leinster Championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7915 - 01/07/2023 14:43:12    2491037

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leinster Championship was 9 teams before the round robin came in. Westmeath, Offaly and Laois could get stroppy and demand an expanded Leinster Championship."
they need to get together but the media lover has opened his mouth already.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1470 - 01/07/2023 15:42:28    2491057

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Replying To jobber:  "i dont disagree with anything you say.However we have a LEINSTER hurling championship and the Leinster counties were promised this.So if people want to change at our expense let them sort out Galway and Antrim.What are the Connacht and Ulster councils doing for hurling?Not a lot apparently.So let Mcdonagh alone."
Hear hear.

If theMcDonagh counties are to be removed from the Liam McCarthy Cup sure then why keep the McDonagh cup at all and those teams might as well be reverted to Christy Ring which was the feeder competition into McCarthy.

The winners of McDonagh (whatever about runners up) have to have a path into that year's McCarthy cup. Otherwise the solution is to revert to the old format and dump Galway and Antrim out of Leinster and let them play their first game of the championship in the all Ireland semi final.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 01/07/2023 16:45:01    2491068

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Replying To Onion Breath:  "Hear hear.

If theMcDonagh counties are to be removed from the Liam McCarthy Cup sure then why keep the McDonagh cup at all and those teams might as well be reverted to Christy Ring which was the feeder competition into McCarthy.

The winners of McDonagh (whatever about runners up) have to have a path into that year's McCarthy cup. Otherwise the solution is to revert to the old format and dump Galway and Antrim out of Leinster and let them play their first game of the championship in the all Ireland semi final."
100% agree.Maybe its time Galway and Antrim started showing some solidarity to those that showed solidarity to them.As well the Leinster chairman needs to start showing he chairman for all the province not just the sunny south east

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1470 - 01/07/2023 17:07:25    2491070

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Replying To Onion Breath:  "Hear hear.

If theMcDonagh counties are to be removed from the Liam McCarthy Cup sure then why keep the McDonagh cup at all and those teams might as well be reverted to Christy Ring which was the feeder competition into McCarthy.

The winners of McDonagh (whatever about runners up) have to have a path into that year's McCarthy cup. Otherwise the solution is to revert to the old format and dump Galway and Antrim out of Leinster and let them play their first game of the championship in the all Ireland semi final."
The first option is to expand the Leinster Championship and scrap the McDonagh Cup. As you say, the Christy Ring Cup can resume it's proper place as Tier 2 for promotion to the Liam McCarthy in the following year.
Munster can have 5 or 6 counties. Leinster can have 9 or 10 counties. Whether Leinster has 9 or 10, the fixtures can be scheduled so that all teams play 4 games based on fair seeding brackets.
When Munster has 6 teams, the 6th team in relegated. When Leinster has 10 teams, the bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals. The Christy Ring winner would determine whether Munster has 6 or Leinster has 10.
The Christy Ring Cup can be contested by 8 counties. Top 4 into semi-finals. Top 2 with home advantage.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7915 - 01/07/2023 18:56:22    2491091

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https://scoreline.ie/bolger-its-imperative-that-the-joe-mcdonagh-cup-winners-get-the-opportunity-to-play-in-the-all-ireland-series/

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12216 - 03/07/2023 18:05:49    2491947

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How will expanding Leinster and diluting the competition help the Leinster counties bridge the gap to the Munster teams?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1741 - 04/07/2023 09:29:22    2492041

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "How will expanding Leinster and diluting the competition help the Leinster counties bridge the gap to the Munster teams?"
It would be a move more designed to pull the middle tier counties up in standard. It's unlikely to do much for Kilkenny or Galway or Dublin. It might help us become more competitive with Westmeath though!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12216 - 04/07/2023 09:40:09    2492045

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The first option is to expand the Leinster Championship and scrap the McDonagh Cup. As you say, the Christy Ring Cup can resume it's proper place as Tier 2 for promotion to the Liam McCarthy in the following year.
Munster can have 5 or 6 counties. Leinster can have 9 or 10 counties. Whether Leinster has 9 or 10, the fixtures can be scheduled so that all teams play 4 games based on fair seeding brackets.
When Munster has 6 teams, the 6th team in relegated. When Leinster has 10 teams, the bottom 4 enter relegation semi-finals. The Christy Ring winner would determine whether Munster has 6 or Leinster has 10.
The Christy Ring Cup can be contested by 8 counties. Top 4 into semi-finals. Top 2 with home advantage."
What do you make of this?

- 16 team combined Hurling League Div 1 /
Championship, with three hierarchical / ranked Groups 1A, 1B & 1C, of 5, 6 & 5 teams, respectively.

- For a 10-match schedule, teams in Group 1A play those in Groups 1A & 1B; Group 1B plays Groups 1A & 1C; and Group 1C plays Groups 1B & 1C.

- One up / one down, with no League KO stage.

- Top 11 (Groups 1A & 1B teams at the beginning of the League) enter straight KO Provincial & AI Championships, while the Next 6 (Group 1C teams & Div 2 Champ) contest the KO McDonagh Cup.

- To limit match quantity, consider if certain matches could 'double up' as Provincial KO and League ties (where possible, avoid all-Group 1B Provincial ties, as these cannot double up, and would need to be played separately).

In this, my 'quirky' 16-team Div 1 structure, 'lower McCarthy Cup teams' (Group 1B) straddle the 'bigger teams' (Group 1A) and 'McDonagh Cup teams' (Group 1C) providing all counties with a 'mixed quality' schedule and an opportunity to develop. Of note, promoted and relegated teams continue to 'repeat play' five or six of their 10 opponents in consecutive Div 1 seasons.

It would take a good few years for the developing counties to improve, but this would give them adequate, repeated match practice, against some strong opposition.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2644 - 04/07/2023 16:21:01    2492217

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