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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Replying To KnockaineyAbú:  "Put the 4th Munster team into a preliminary quarter final against the 3rd Leinster team."
A debatable suggestion that is gaining support in some quarters. 3rd placed teams could have home against 4th placed teams in the preliminary quarter-finals. Provincial runners-up then could have home advantage in the quarter-finals. 4 qualifying from 5 or 6 is debatable though. People scoffed at 3 qualifying from 4 in football but it has gained support after competitive football preliminary quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 07:28:16    2490301

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Replying To KnockaineyAbú:  "Put the 4th Munster team into a preliminary quarter final against the 3rd Leinster team."
And the 4th in Leinster against the 3rd in Munster?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 28/06/2023 08:17:49    2490307

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Replying To legendzxix:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Am afraid you're getting mixed up a bit.

The McDonagh Cup was only introduced at the same time as the provincial round-robins (2018), and it's always been on the current system of the finalists going into the All-Ireland series rather than being a qualifier for the Leinster Championship.

What you're thinking of is the system that operated for a few years prior to that, where there was first a preliminary round-robin in the Leinster Championship itself. For example, in 2017, teams taking part were Laois, Westmeath, Kerry and Meath, with the top two of them going into the Leinster quarter-finals.

But these teams only took part in the Leinster Senior Championship and not in anything else, such as the Christy Ring Cup, which was the second tier competition at the time."
Respectfully it is the other way around. You are getting mixed up on this one. The qualifier group became the McDonagh Cup under the 2018 changes.
"An amendment put forward by Laois, Offaly and Meath means that there will be a change to the All-Ireland quarter final stage.
The third-place team in the provincial group shall play a Preliminary Quarter Final against one of the Tier 2 Championship finalists with Tier 2 teams having home advantage.
A new Tier 2 Championship will be contested by counties that previously competed in the Qualifer Round-Robin section of the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship.""
And equally respectfully, you're actually proving my point rather than your own.

You first claimed: "The McDonagh Cup was originally a qualifier group for the Leinster Championship". This was never the case. The actual situation is that the forerunner of the McDonagh Cup was originally a qualifier for the Leinster Championship.

This forerunner of a four-team qualifier group for Leinster evolved into the new competition of a six-team McDonagh Cup, with those four teams and the winners and runners-up of the Christy Ring Cup. But the McDonagh Cup itself was never a qualifier for Leinster.

All fairly pedantic, but we may as well have it correct.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 28/06/2023 10:45:51    2490351

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Replying To Viking66:  "And the 4th in Leinster against the 3rd in Munster?"
And if you are going to do that it will lessen the interest in the Round Robins as nearly all the big counties will go through to the AI series anyway.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 28/06/2023 10:46:44    2490353

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While there will be reservations about 4 teams qualifying from provincial championships, if one province can provide 3 quarter-finalists, should they be denied that opportunity?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 11:28:46    2490368

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Replying To thelongridge:  "I think it's worth considering. How do you bring the McDonagh Cup finalists to compete with the McCarthy Cup teams?"
I dont think you can in the same calendar year, to be fair to players involved they deserve to be able celebrate their year (if they win the Joe Mc) and then go back to their clubs on high looking forward to the challenge of competing in the Liam McCarthy the following year. Exposure to top level hurling consistently is the only way the likes of Offaly, Carlow, Kildare etc will improve and this will only happen through the leagues where a block of games is guaranteed every year

keepitlit (Longford) - Posts: 37 - 28/06/2023 11:47:27    2490376

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Replying To Viking66:  "And if you are going to do that it will lessen the interest in the Round Robins as nearly all the big counties will go through to the AI series anyway."
It is a tough one. There are points for and against. 1st and 2nd essentially playoff in provincial finals for the All-Ireland semi-finals. The runners-up have the safety net of a quarter-final. 3rd v 4th if it is brought in will have no safety net in attempting to qualify for the quarter-finals. There would still be a clear advantage in making the provincial finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 11:47:44    2490377

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Replying To legendzxix:  "While there will be reservations about 4 teams qualifying from provincial championships, if one province can provide 3 quarter-finalists, should they be denied that opportunity?"
For so long as three teams qualify from the provincial round-robins, the provinces already have the opportunity to provide three quarter-finalists.

The only way they'd be denied that opportunity is to reduce the number of teams going through to two (or even one), and nobody's suggesting that.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 28/06/2023 12:02:15    2490382

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "For so long as three teams qualify from the provincial round-robins, the provinces already have the opportunity to provide three quarter-finalists.

The only way they'd be denied that opportunity is to reduce the number of teams going through to two (or even one), and nobody's suggesting that."
The Leinster and Munster championships can only provide 2nd and 3rd for the quarter-finals currently. That's two each. If 3rd v 4th playoff, i.e. 3rd Leinster v 4th Munster and 3rd Munster v 4th Leinster, one province might get three quarter-finalists.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 12:42:11    2490400

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Replying To legendzxix:  "While there will be reservations about 4 teams qualifying from provincial championships, if one province can provide 3 quarter-finalists, should they be denied that opportunity?"
They aren't as it is.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 28/06/2023 12:48:42    2490403

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is a tough one. There are points for and against. 1st and 2nd essentially playoff in provincial finals for the All-Ireland semi-finals. The runners-up have the safety net of a quarter-final. 3rd v 4th if it is brought in will have no safety net in attempting to qualify for the quarter-finals. There would still be a clear advantage in making the provincial finals."
What would be the point to the Round Robins then? Only 1 top team would be eliminated. Without any jeopardy the intensity, and crowds, would fall.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 28/06/2023 12:50:26    2490405

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Leinster and Munster championships can only provide 2nd and 3rd for the quarter-finals currently. That's two each. If 3rd v 4th playoff, i.e. 3rd Leinster v 4th Munster and 3rd Munster v 4th Leinster, one province might get three quarter-finalists."
Sorry, I'm the one that got things wrong this time. As things stand, the provincial round-robin groups can provide three semi-finalists, but not three quarter-finalists.

However, just to be pedantic again..... :)

A province can still currently provide three quarter-finalists. Say for example that Kerry reach a McDonagh Cup final, and beat the third-placed Leinster team in their subsequent preliminary quarter-final.

Now they'd go into the quarter-finals proper along with the Munster runners-up and the third-placed Munster team, so Munster would have three quarter-finalists after all.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 28/06/2023 13:03:14    2490411

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Replying To Viking66:  "What would be the point to the Round Robins then? Only 1 top team would be eliminated. Without any jeopardy the intensity, and crowds, would fall."
Yes, that would be the obvious flaw. In Munster, there'd be ten matches to eliminate just one team.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 28/06/2023 13:03:51    2490412

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Replying To Viking66:  "What would be the point to the Round Robins then? Only 1 top team would be eliminated. Without any jeopardy the intensity, and crowds, would fall."
Firstly I'm neutral in this. It would depend is the glass half full or half empty. Would teams want to qualify for provincial finals for the safety net of a quarter-final spot or settle for a preliminary quarter-final spot without a safety net with a quarter-final the following week if they get through?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 13:38:29    2490420

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Replying To KnockaineyAbú:  "Put the 4th Munster team into a preliminary quarter final against the 3rd Leinster team."
That's based on the notion that munster is way ahead.

All Ireland results conflict with that.

4th place in both provincial competitions would add more to the championship

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 28/06/2023 14:01:51    2490424

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The All Ireland needs to be 12 teams, one table, 6 or 8 games each. Include Provincial championship games (knockout format but teams will still play most of their provincial rivals) and interprovincial fixtures in the league phase.

6 teams to the knockout round.

More matches, still a high enough bar to qualify for the knockout rounds. Knockout rounds themselves simplified.

You don't have provincial finalists being able to meet 3 times in the championship.

3 developing counties get their chance at big games each year. 1 down.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 28/06/2023 14:43:07    2490434

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The All Ireland needs to be 12 teams, one table, 6 or 8 games each. Include Provincial championship games (knockout format but teams will still play most of their provincial rivals) and interprovincial fixtures in the league phase.

6 teams to the knockout round.

More matches, still a high enough bar to qualify for the knockout rounds. Knockout rounds themselves simplified.

You don't have provincial finalists being able to meet 3 times in the championship.

3 developing counties get their chance at big games each year. 1 down."
This is coming from Munster who want to have 4 out of 5 qualifying 80% to the All Ireland series which would make the football scene look competitive.They are interested in promoting hurling in KERRY Westmeath,Antrim,Carlow and Laois all right!!!! No way should this happen until Croke Park gives its best competition and competitors the tools it needs.So Tipp want 11 counties out of 32 competing for the All Ireland.Rememeber of the2024 Mcdonagh counties Westmeath have beaten and drew with Wexford in the championship in the ladt two years and Laois beat Dublin in 2021.If either of us were to win Mcdonagh next year a hell of a task why would we not deserve a crack at a Wexford,Dublin or Waterford?

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1601 - 28/06/2023 15:17:54    2490448

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Sorry, I'm the one that got things wrong this time. As things stand, the provincial round-robin groups can provide three semi-finalists, but not three quarter-finalists.

However, just to be pedantic again..... :)

A province can still currently provide three quarter-finalists. Say for example that Kerry reach a McDonagh Cup final, and beat the third-placed Leinster team in their subsequent preliminary quarter-final.

Now they'd go into the quarter-finals proper along with the Munster runners-up and the third-placed Munster team, so Munster would have three quarter-finalists after all."
That's why I specifically said "Leinster and Munster championships"!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8289 - 28/06/2023 15:32:07    2490450

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Replying To jobber:  "This is coming from Munster who want to have 4 out of 5 qualifying 80% to the All Ireland series which would make the football scene look competitive.They are interested in promoting hurling in KERRY Westmeath,Antrim,Carlow and Laois all right!!!! No way should this happen until Croke Park gives its best competition and competitors the tools it needs.So Tipp want 11 counties out of 32 competing for the All Ireland.Rememeber of the2024 Mcdonagh counties Westmeath have beaten and drew with Wexford in the championship in the ladt two years and Laois beat Dublin in 2021.If either of us were to win Mcdonagh next year a hell of a task why would we not deserve a crack at a Wexford,Dublin or Waterford?"
You got it spot on.
Imagine thinking you could theoretically draw 1 game in the Munster championship and qualify for the AI Quarter final on scoring difference but yet people think you have some business being in the championship? And that 20 games in each province should be played to knock out 1 team?

The Munster counties want to completely have their cake and eat it. 4 out of 5 of them through and no relegation. Is there anything else we can do, maybe play the matches on hilly pitches with the Munster counties playing downhill with the wind?

I have never felt it fair that Westmeath (or very close Wexford, could easily be Dublin in another year) should have to face relegation and the damage that does to hurling in the county while the Munster counties don't face this. Why do Waterford deserve to win no match last year and not face that prospect?

If things are going to change, they need to go back to knock out provincials and have round robins with promotion and relegation for all.

Come back with something better to promote the game and make investment in the game in Laois, Westmeath, Dublin, Offaly etc a good investment rather than tinkering the playing field to suit the elite while these counties yo-yo.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 28/06/2023 15:48:21    2490458

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Replying To legendzxix:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "Sorry, I'm the one that got things wrong this time. As things stand, the provincial round-robin groups can provide three semi-finalists, but not three quarter-finalists.

However, just to be pedantic again..... :)

A province can still currently provide three quarter-finalists. Say for example that Kerry reach a McDonagh Cup final, and beat the third-placed Leinster team in their subsequent preliminary quarter-final.

Now they'd go into the quarter-finals proper along with the Munster runners-up and the third-placed Munster team, so Munster would have three quarter-finalists after all."
That's why I specifically said "Leinster and Munster championships"!"
I'd say this is getting tiresome for others now as well as me and maybe you too, but what you actually said was:
"if one province can provide 3 quarter-finalists, should they be denied that opportunity?"

I've shown you how both Munster and Leinster actually already have an opportunity to provide three.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 28/06/2023 16:05:12    2490461

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