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Wexford Club Hurling Championships 2023

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Replying To bystanderbill:  "I agree with you on the format broadly - Say 3 weeks hurling, 3 football 2 hurling 2 football then play the hurling out to a close (would finish end September) and football to a close Finish mid October.
I take issue to the nonsense that having the Championship on week after week is Flogging lads.
1. every player knows that its easier and more enjoyable to be playing games than training - If ur in the thick of it ur basically playing your game and recovering midweek.
2. Managers have is sussed. the objective is top 4 in the group. so there will be games sacrifices or players rested to meet that. It's possibly the teams that are in danger of relegation that are under most pressure
3. only if you reach the final in both codes do you play every week. 60% of teams get 2 weekends off.

Players much happier to be playing than waiting around for a game"
The 3, 3, 2, 2 system you propose would be better than alternate weeks. You will be running into the weather difficulties for the hurling finals at the end of September, which would affect the quality of games and the attendance at them, although the 3 hurling champions will be better prepared for Leinster club championship conditions for sure. I suppose it all depends on what problems different individuals see as the important ones to resolve.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 13/11/2023 17:28:16    2512798

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Replying To tearintom:  "Well less of them have been playing both since the split season came in but the point still remains.

The split season flogs the fella who wants to play both and also flogs the fella who only want to do one so essentially everyone gets flogged.

Go back to alternate two week blocks or a version of and give players more flexibility, more opportunity for rest and recovery and more opportunity to focus on one grade if he chooses to do so.

If a fella wants to play both he still can, if he feels he needs to take a break in one code or other he now can.

The split season was brought in to fix an issue that doesn't exist any more, it was worth a go to see hoe it worked out, time now to go back to a more sensible alternative and see how that goes."
I agree. I think the solution is fairly simply. How do players improve at any sport? Answer = by playing it more over a longer period of time. What happens when championships are rushed off in 8 week blocks when there's 6 to 8 months of the year available to play games? Answer = more injuries, reduced standard of teams and players as a result of having less time to train and prepare properly.

How can anybody expect wexford players and teams to improve when there playing hurling for a much shorter time of the year compared to virtually every club and county team? Kilcormac were playing challenge matches against ballygunner and Thomas Town when gorey were winning intermediate football after playing matches for 16 weeks straight and having only 3 weeks to prepare for yesterday's match. Where Is the rationale to that?

The split season has been enjoyable for players but the patient often doesn't like the medicine. The split season has been detrimental to the wexford players and teams, it's a combination of not just flogging successful 'dual' teams whilst but also reducing the standards st the same time.

The proposals are there we need a hybrid model whereby the leagues hold more value ,perhaps introducing blocks of 2/3 weeks hurling / football blocks followed by 2 week break before playing hurling to a finish from 1/4 final onwards. Something along those lines would ensure or gaa season is extended whilst allowing players to develop and giving our teams a fighting chance as they enter the provincial series. Some of the other alternatives like the kk model are also worth considering. I firmly believe that If we persist with a condensed cramped system,it will prove devastating long term.

cragask1234 (Wexford) - Posts: 29 - 13/11/2023 18:31:16    2512810

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Replying To bystanderbill:  "I agree with you on the format broadly - Say 3 weeks hurling, 3 football 2 hurling 2 football then play the hurling out to a close (would finish end September) and football to a close Finish mid October.
I take issue to the nonsense that having the Championship on week after week is Flogging lads.
1. every player knows that its easier and more enjoyable to be playing games than training - If ur in the thick of it ur basically playing your game and recovering midweek.
2. Managers have is sussed. the objective is top 4 in the group. so there will be games sacrifices or players rested to meet that. It's possibly the teams that are in danger of relegation that are under most pressure
3. only if you reach the final in both codes do you play every week. 60% of teams get 2 weekends off.

Players much happier to be playing than waiting around for a game"
Excellent post, pretty much exactly what I suggested in my post which hasn't appeared yet. Hybrid blocks us the future.

cragask1234 (Wexford) - Posts: 29 - 13/11/2023 20:04:58    2512822

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Replying To tearintom:  "Exactly, it's the most sensible approach in reality.

But unfortunately there's still this obsession with what others are doing! I honestly swear people just decide things not on the basis even of what works for them but what can hinder other clubs!

The fact is the championship standard has regressed under this system, flogging fellas for 8 weeks straight for one code followed by 5/6 months of nothing is helping no one, anyone with half a brain can see that. Now is the split season the main reason our championship standards have regressed, well, let's try something different and see. The reality is less players seem to be playing both codes anyway under the current system, particularly at the top county player level

I actually think a hybrid version would work best personally, see how it goes, alternate it for the group stages then play one code to completion followed by the other, best of both worlds.

Definitely worth a shot imho."
True to form, I'm disagreeing with you again, almost straight away. :)

I don't accept myself that the split season is the mean reason for championship standards regressing. In fact, I've argued before and I'll still argue that it's actually a good thing for football. Never before has it happened and in no other way will you get it to happen that every single club gives football its absolute full attention for anywhere from five to ten weeks in a row.

And has been pointed out several times already since Gorey lost yesterday, apart from the great Oulart teams we used to have, our record in Leinster club championship hurling has been fairly dismal over the past 20 years or so anyway. We found ways to lose and indeed ship big beatings long before the split season was ever introduced.

I'm with Viking in that I absolutely fail to see how any system of alternate weeks/blocks is going to actually raise standards. By and large, clubs and players will just be doing the same thing, but in a different order. The net result will be just the same standard overall, or only very marginal differences.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 13/11/2023 20:08:37    2512823

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Replying To Viking66:  "The 3, 3, 2, 2 system you propose would be better than alternate weeks. You will be running into the weather difficulties for the hurling finals at the end of September, which would affect the quality of games and the attendance at them, although the 3 hurling champions will be better prepared for Leinster club championship conditions for sure. I suppose it all depends on what problems different individuals see as the important ones to resolve."
Going 3, 3, 2, 2 is making a sows ear out of a silk purse, why would anyone do that in an 8 week championship.

If you want an alternate weeks championship then an 8 week championship is best either completely alternate weeks or 2, 2, 2 and 2.

Simple as that.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 13/11/2023 20:15:08    2512825

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Elaborate on how we don't have the hurlers.

This is not reflected in even a 5 year view of our county teams from under 14 up to senior"
We are way off it in hurling we are at the bottom of the pile of counties who prioritize hurling.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 13/11/2023 22:35:22    2512834

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The truth at the minute is Wexford club hurling while close and moderately exciting is way off the standard of a lot of counties. Or maybe I'm saying that wrong we don't have a superpower club at the minute. Bufffers Alley, Rathnure and Oulart were very very good teams in their hay day. Are Naomh Eanna a super power no, but they were worthy winners of a wide open championship of mediocre enough teams.

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 13/11/2023 22:40:48    2512835

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Replying To Viking66:  "Nobody is answering a fairly simple question? In what way will alternate weeks benefit most players, or most clubs, or the county teams?
Most players, by far a large majority, play both so they won't have any extra weeks off. Most clubs also play both, but will now be at a disadvantage against clubs that only play one, or have enough players to have largely seperate teams. And the players will still only have the same amount of training in each code as before, only it will be more haphazard as they will be jumping around between the 2 codes so won't play either as well. Hard to see how this will benefit the county teams either tbh.
Anyway back to the question at the start of this post-In what way will alternate weeks benefit most players, or most clubs, or the county teams?"
If a fella/club want to ply dual he still can and will still be training the same whether it's split or alternate. So his load is the same. Most clubs will see no difference, some clubs will do more hurlign/football training, how can that not be an advantage to county teams?

This idea that somehow training football a week after training hurling somehow negates the hurling training is rubbish.

If a club or player wants to concentrate more on one code then they will get in even more training. Are you saying that more players getting in more hurling training over the course of a summer isn't going to help???

If it still takes 16 weeks to run both surely having players training more hurling/football over those 16 weeks and getting in more training helps county teams, no?

The fact is you actually couldn't care less about anything other than the fact you see other clubs who may have the opportunity to do more hurling/football than your club doing do even if the bigger picture means surely having more players training over the entirety of the summer rather than just 6/8 weeks will be of benefit to Wexford hurling overall.

Having more player hurling and training hurling over the entire summer will be of more benefit to Wexford hurling than the current blitz season we run but your only concern is whether you're club is at a disadvantage or not in reality.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1427 - 14/11/2023 07:32:48    2512844

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Elaborate on how we don't have the hurlers.

This is not reflected in even a 5 year view of our county teams from under 14 up to senior"
We got hammered in senior and intermediate Leinster club championship, Westmeath beat us in senior inter county championship, I think results speak for themselves

Lockerroomboy (Wexford) - Posts: 472 - 14/11/2023 07:50:13    2512846

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Reading the article on the new Wexford FC pitch and I see as part of the new South East Campus, there will be a alfull Sized 4g pitch for Wexford GAA. It will be a great addition and well needed.

alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 444 - 14/11/2023 09:13:34    2512851

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "We got hammered in senior and intermediate Leinster club championship, Westmeath beat us in senior inter county championship, I think results speak for themselves"
I am not talking about club results.

We were also the only team to beat kilkenny on their path to the final in the same year.

That doesn't excuse the westmeath game, but to say wexford doesn't have hurlers is just silly.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 14/11/2023 10:17:23    2512864

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Replying To hurlorhurley:  "We are way off it in hurling we are at the bottom of the pile of counties who prioritize hurling."
I don't think that's accurate either.

It is fair to say we aren't getting the most out of the resources we have at the moment.

It is factually incorrect to say we don't have hurlers.

Last year was shocking.

The previous year was not a success, but not a disaster either.

It's only 4 years since we won leinster double at minor and senior.

The 21s were narrowly beaten in the last 2 finals.

We have hurlers.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3148 - 14/11/2023 10:19:51    2512867

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "We got hammered in senior and intermediate Leinster club championship, Westmeath beat us in senior inter county championship, I think results speak for themselves"
I'd ignore the Intermediate result. Cloughbawn were missing nearly all their best players. I fancy KK to beat OLG next up also they are a good team. Goreys fitness seemed to tell against them in the 2nd half. Maybe more of their big players should commit to Senior Intercounty to help their club? Cullen and the Molloys?
Yes we lost to Westmeath but the same players beat Kilkenny twice.
Our u16a team lost the Michael Foley A final to Kilkenny by just a goal. Our u20s lost the last 2 Leinster finals by 1 point and 2 points to 2 good teams.
I agree with you 100% that we don't have the players to compete for all Irelands. But the lads we have should be competing for Leinsters at intercounty if managed and coached properly. The fact we still don't have a sports psychologist is a little annoying at this stage tbh. Name the 2 teams who over the last 5 years have beaten most of the other teams and have rarely had off days and what do they both have in common? A good sports psychologist. I know there are alot of other factors at play but both think their SPs make a huge difference. Clonlara in Clare appointed one and won their 1st Senior Club title in 15 years this year, despite having no Senior intercounty regulars. The only year I can think of when we had 1 was 1996.....
Going back to club the main reason our clubs haven't been doing well in Leinster is we have had no dominant golden generation at a club since Oulart. Lads on this still don't seem to get it through their heads that club success is completely disconnected from Intercounty success. If it wasn't Galway would have many more intercounty AIs won in the last 30 years, while Tipp and Cork would have nearly none.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/11/2023 10:28:11    2512870

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Going 3, 3, 2, 2 is making a sows ear out of a silk purse, why would anyone do that in an 8 week championship.

If you want an alternate weeks championship then an 8 week championship is best either completely alternate weeks or 2, 2, 2 and 2.

Simple as that."
How do you go 2,2,2,2 with groups of 5? And BTW I still think the system we have is best for the majority of players, majority of clubs, and for the county teams also.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/11/2023 10:29:54    2512871

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Replying To cragask1234:  "I agree. I think the solution is fairly simply. How do players improve at any sport? Answer = by playing it more over a longer period of time. What happens when championships are rushed off in 8 week blocks when there's 6 to 8 months of the year available to play games? Answer = more injuries, reduced standard of teams and players as a result of having less time to train and prepare properly.

How can anybody expect wexford players and teams to improve when there playing hurling for a much shorter time of the year compared to virtually every club and county team? Kilcormac were playing challenge matches against ballygunner and Thomas Town when gorey were winning intermediate football after playing matches for 16 weeks straight and having only 3 weeks to prepare for yesterday's match. Where Is the rationale to that?

The split season has been enjoyable for players but the patient often doesn't like the medicine. The split season has been detrimental to the wexford players and teams, it's a combination of not just flogging successful 'dual' teams whilst but also reducing the standards st the same time.

The proposals are there we need a hybrid model whereby the leagues hold more value ,perhaps introducing blocks of 2/3 weeks hurling / football blocks followed by 2 week break before playing hurling to a finish from 1/4 final onwards. Something along those lines would ensure or gaa season is extended whilst allowing players to develop and giving our teams a fighting chance as they enter the provincial series. Some of the other alternatives like the kk model are also worth considering. I firmly believe that If we persist with a condensed cramped system,it will prove devastating long term."
Yep, agree with all that.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1427 - 14/11/2023 10:36:11    2512873

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Replying To cragask1234:  "I agree. I think the solution is fairly simply. How do players improve at any sport? Answer = by playing it more over a longer period of time. What happens when championships are rushed off in 8 week blocks when there's 6 to 8 months of the year available to play games? Answer = more injuries, reduced standard of teams and players as a result of having less time to train and prepare properly.

How can anybody expect wexford players and teams to improve when there playing hurling for a much shorter time of the year compared to virtually every club and county team? Kilcormac were playing challenge matches against ballygunner and Thomas Town when gorey were winning intermediate football after playing matches for 16 weeks straight and having only 3 weeks to prepare for yesterday's match. Where Is the rationale to that?

The split season has been enjoyable for players but the patient often doesn't like the medicine. The split season has been detrimental to the wexford players and teams, it's a combination of not just flogging successful 'dual' teams whilst but also reducing the standards st the same time.

The proposals are there we need a hybrid model whereby the leagues hold more value ,perhaps introducing blocks of 2/3 weeks hurling / football blocks followed by 2 week break before playing hurling to a finish from 1/4 final onwards. Something along those lines would ensure or gaa season is extended whilst allowing players to develop and giving our teams a fighting chance as they enter the provincial series. Some of the other alternatives like the kk model are also worth considering. I firmly believe that If we persist with a condensed cramped system,it will prove devastating long term."
No fiddling with format is going to change the fact we only have approximately 16 weeks to complete our club championships. Nearly all our intercounty hurlers play for dual clubs and play football also. Very few come from any of the hurling only clubs, or those that prioritise hurling, these days. Last year 1 from Rathnure, none from the Alley, none from Oulart and a couple from Harriers out of a Championship panel of over 30. Nearly everyone else played club championship football. I agree the system is too cramped. Exiled and Storeystash came up with goodish systems to run club and county side by side, but that's a national decision needs to be made. We can't unilaterally do it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/11/2023 10:36:59    2512874

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Replying To hurlorhurley:  "The truth at the minute is Wexford club hurling while close and moderately exciting is way off the standard of a lot of counties. Or maybe I'm saying that wrong we don't have a superpower club at the minute. Bufffers Alley, Rathnure and Oulart were very very good teams in their hay day. Are Naomh Eanna a super power no, but they were worthy winners of a wide open championship of mediocre enough teams."
Did you watch the Clare, Cork, Tipp, Waterford, and Kilkenny finals? I did. Nothing special about any of them. And the Limerick semi I saw wasn't champagne hurling either. NaP and Ballygunner are very good club teams but the standard apart from them was nothing to write home about.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/11/2023 10:40:17    2512878

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "True to form, I'm disagreeing with you again, almost straight away. :)

I don't accept myself that the split season is the mean reason for championship standards regressing. In fact, I've argued before and I'll still argue that it's actually a good thing for football. Never before has it happened and in no other way will you get it to happen that every single club gives football its absolute full attention for anywhere from five to ten weeks in a row.

And has been pointed out several times already since Gorey lost yesterday, apart from the great Oulart teams we used to have, our record in Leinster club championship hurling has been fairly dismal over the past 20 years or so anyway. We found ways to lose and indeed ship big beatings long before the split season was ever introduced.

I'm with Viking in that I absolutely fail to see how any system of alternate weeks/blocks is going to actually raise standards. By and large, clubs and players will just be doing the same thing, but in a different order. The net result will be just the same standard overall, or only very marginal differences."
Lol. World would be a boring place if we al agreed on everything.

The reality has been though that in my experience less players are actually playing both, look at our county hurlers for example and players who have previously played dual not actually playing football at all. It definitely Isn't a case of every club giving football absolute full attention, that hasn't happened at all.

You're right a lot of club players will be doing the same so no issue yet some clubs and some players will be doing more training in either codes, how can that be a bad thing? People look and say, oh alternate weeks means that hurlers in oulart or rathnure will be doing more hurling and feel that's a problem? How is it a problem?

I'm not from a single code club but from a Wexford hurling point of view Id be delighted to see players in oulart or rathnure doing even more hurling as down the line that may benefit Wexford over all, have players up there hurling for 3/4 months rather than the 6/7 weeks rathnure were engaged this year. How is that a negative for Wexford hurling?

I think where we do agree though that really it's time for a change to fully look at the different approaches and assess what works best. I mean it's almost like brexit at the moment with a 2 club majority this year, the county board are pushing for a change simply on the basis of lest try a different approach for a few years now and see what works.

We could find ourselves again returning to a split season or version of should the alternatives not work but lest at least see.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1427 - 14/11/2023 10:51:52    2512882

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Replying To tearintom:  "If a fella/club want to ply dual he still can and will still be training the same whether it's split or alternate. So his load is the same. Most clubs will see no difference, some clubs will do more hurlign/football training, how can that not be an advantage to county teams?

This idea that somehow training football a week after training hurling somehow negates the hurling training is rubbish.

If a club or player wants to concentrate more on one code then they will get in even more training. Are you saying that more players getting in more hurling training over the course of a summer isn't going to help???

If it still takes 16 weeks to run both surely having players training more hurling/football over those 16 weeks and getting in more training helps county teams, no?

The fact is you actually couldn't care less about anything other than the fact you see other clubs who may have the opportunity to do more hurling/football than your club doing do even if the bigger picture means surely having more players training over the entirety of the summer rather than just 6/8 weeks will be of benefit to Wexford hurling overall.

Having more player hurling and training hurling over the entire summer will be of more benefit to Wexford hurling than the current blitz season we run but your only concern is whether you're club is at a disadvantage or not in reality."
If what you are saying is right how come there was only 1 lad from Rathnure, 2 from the Harriers, and none from Oulart or the Alley on most of our Championship matchday squads last year?
You and other lads keep dancing around this but none of you seem to have the balls to come out with it- what you really want is clubs to specialise in either hurling or football, or better again hurling played in the summer and football in the winter.
If we do this our Intercounty hurling teams will improve at every grade within a few years as parents won't be as willing to bring their kids to 2 different clubs every night of the week. People like me with 4 kids in different age groups just would not be physically able to do it at all. Probably over time the county will drift to being more of a hurling county tbh. But lads like mine won't get the chance to play football and they like it. Most adult players I know enjoy both also. Is it a case of #### them so a bunch of fairweather bandwaggoners who barely went to an intercounty game all this year can get an outing to Croke Park that doesn't involve a band?
The model or structure we have isn't the problem. The main problem is the lack of people getting off their behinds and pucking a ball around with their kids every evening because they are too busy on social media or watching TV. There's only so much formats, structures, coaching etc can do. Producing exceptional players has to start at home. Just read the biographies of any of the great hurlers that ever lived and they lived with a hurl in their hands when they were kids. The really top lads practice all through the winter to this day. It's culture as Doylerwex put it. And somewhere along the way as a county we lost it since the 70s.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 14/11/2023 10:55:10    2512888

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Following on from what Cragask says above about the sort of practice matches Kilcormac-Killoughey were able to play, I've been having a look at how things operate in Offaly, compared to how they do here. It's interesting:

- In Offaly, their football championships this year were two groups of four in the top four grades. Their hurling championships were two groups of five. The group games were played on alternate weeks in July & August.

- Kilcormac-Killoughey competed only in Junior Football - the fourth grade, after Senior, Senior 'B', and Intermediate. Being so low down the grades suggests football is not really a priority with them anyway. They lost their first two matches and so were effectively out of the championship by the end of July. While they still had to play a third game (which they won) on 13th August, they were completely finished with football then, and so could concentrate 100% on hurling for the 13 weeks between then and the match last Sunday.

- Gorey, by contrast, had to play football in nine of the 12 weeks between winning our hurling title on 20th August and competing in Leinster Hurling last Sunday.

- As well as anything else, this meant that they couldn't pick up the sort of practice matches that the Offaly side did. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Ferns man last year. He told me that during September/October, they were approached by two leading Dublin clubs and one from Kilkenny, who were looking for practice matches in what were "off weeks" in the hurling championships in those counties. They couldn't take any of them, because they had to play football on all those weekends instead.

I'm inclined to suggest the elephant is back in the room. It could be argued that our poor record in Leinster Club hurling is not just down to a 12 or 13 week gap between County FInal and first Leinster match, but is also down to how clubs have to spend so much time playing football, instead of concentrating on being the best they can be in hurling.

Same thing obviously applies in the other direction. Our top football clubs would be better at football if they didn't have to spend so much time hurling as well.

Would we actually be better off if some clubs concentrated 95% or more on football, and the rest did on hurling, instead of just about everywhere being a dual club? Realistically, won't ever happen, but just throwing it out there anyway.

Pesky elephant! :)

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 14/11/2023 11:00:45    2512898

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