National Forum

Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant

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The thing is that the league being such a good competition and also having to keep Provincial championships then limits what can be done with the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3893 - 06/05/2023 14:23:41

It does. At the same time however, 4 groups of 4 is a fair enough format. I've written previously in favour of 4 groups of 5. Two home games each. If there was support for that, the league would reluctantly have to alter a bit. The suggested league format would be:
Division 1 - 2 groups of 6. Group winners into league final. Bottom teams relegated. Two 5th teams in a relegation playoff.
Division 2 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and into Division 2 final. Two 2nd teams in a promotion playoff. Bottom teams relegated. Two 4th teams in a relegation playoff.
Division 3 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and into Division 3 final. Two 2nd teams in a promotion playoff.

Again, I think most will be reluctant to alter the league format. If the winds of change were in support of two home games each however, consideration would have to be given to some league alteration.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 06/05/2023 15:18:03    2476101

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The thing is that the league being such a good competition and also having to keep Provincial championships then limits what can be done with the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3893 - 06/05/2023 14:23:41

It does. At the same time however, 4 groups of 4 is a fair enough format. I've written previously in favour of 4 groups of 5. Two home games each. If there was support for that, the league would reluctantly have to alter a bit. The suggested league format would be:
Division 1 - 2 groups of 6. Group winners into league final. Bottom teams relegated. Two 5th teams in a relegation playoff.
Division 2 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and into Division 2 final. Two 2nd teams in a promotion playoff. Bottom teams relegated. Two 4th teams in a relegation playoff.
Division 3 - 2 groups of 5. Group winners promoted and into Division 3 final. Two 2nd teams in a promotion playoff.

Again, I think most will be reluctant to alter the league format. If the winds of change were in support of two home games each however, consideration would have to be given to some league alteration."
Dividing the field into 4 is a bad idea.

Teams end up not playing enough games against the teams around their level.

4 groups of 4 is a fair format but 4 in a group isn't a good idea for Gaelic because if 2 go through you end up with a lot of dead rubbers. If 3 go through, it's just not a very intense competition.

Championship rather than league should determine championship entry and it's a lot easier to do that using 2 groups with teams going up against the team in the same place as them in the other group for the placing.

I don't think the top tier needs to be expanded to 20 teams. The natural split is 16 to both tiers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 06/05/2023 18:45:34    2476139

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Think the first 66% of the championship is no longer relevant. Like in football championship we have a knockout followed by a league ( where 3 out of 4 qualify) followed by another knockout. WTF. This is not championship. It only begins when that league farce is over. If you want a league format then start with the league and then progress to knockout - like WC rugby/soccer and Champions League soccer. It works there so why not in GAA. Yes the provincial championship is almost dead. Kill it now or make it a pre winter league warmup.

Captainfantastic (Westmeath) - Posts: 50 - 06/05/2023 20:46:07    2476181

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Replying To Captainfantastic:  "Think the first 66% of the championship is no longer relevant. Like in football championship we have a knockout followed by a league ( where 3 out of 4 qualify) followed by another knockout. WTF. This is not championship. It only begins when that league farce is over. If you want a league format then start with the league and then progress to knockout - like WC rugby/soccer and Champions League soccer. It works there so why not in GAA. Yes the provincial championship is almost dead. Kill it now or make it a pre winter league warmup."
Seems an overreaction. The provincial championships have had interesting battles of teams trying to qualify for the provincial finals. Years ago there were 2 or 3 weeks between every game. There seems to be a better balance now of on average 2 weeks between every round.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 06/05/2023 22:03:06    2476211

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For most of the stronger counties tho the provincials were never the end goal.
For example I find it hard to believe that kerry would have been satisfied with their season in 2000, had they not gone on and won the all Ireland.
Kildare were devastated in 98 and 2000, even though they'd won leinster on both occasions.
Offaly won Liam in 98 without winning leinster. I'm sure they weren't too fussed at the end of it.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 06/05/2023 22:22:42    2476223

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Replying To Galway9801:  "For most of the stronger counties tho the provincials were never the end goal.
For example I find it hard to believe that kerry would have been satisfied with their season in 2000, had they not gone on and won the all Ireland.
Kildare were devastated in 98 and 2000, even though they'd won leinster on both occasions.
Offaly won Liam in 98 without winning leinster. I'm sure they weren't too fussed at the end of it."
I can tell you that as we hadn't won a Leinster in 42 years we certainly appreciated the win in 1998. The memories of that day will last a lifetime

LilywhiteGael (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 07/05/2023 10:00:49    2476285

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Replying To Galway9801:  "For most of the stronger counties tho the provincials were never the end goal.
For example I find it hard to believe that kerry would have been satisfied with their season in 2000, had they not gone on and won the all Ireland.
Kildare were devastated in 98 and 2000, even though they'd won leinster on both occasions.
Offaly won Liam in 98 without winning leinster. I'm sure they weren't too fussed at the end of it."
Kerry appreciated Munster success in '96. It depends on where teams are in their current trajectory.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 07/05/2023 11:58:21    2476317

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Replying To LilywhiteGael:  "I can tell you that as we hadn't won a Leinster in 42 years we certainly appreciated the win in 1998. The memories of that day will last a lifetime"
Definitely, winning Connacht that year was great for us too, but losing the all Ireland would have made me look back on that year with regret.
When we won it again in 01 I wasn't fussed at all about not winning Connacht.
Armagh, (I reckon) would have traded half their ulster titles during the 2000s for a second all Ireland.
As another poster said alot of it goes down to where a team is in terms of expectation, experience, how long they've gone without winning a province etc.
For example if fermanagh were to win ulster they'd probably celebrate more than kerry would if they won an all Ireland.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 07/05/2023 13:39:01    2476364

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Definitely, winning Connacht that year was great for us too, but losing the all Ireland would have made me look back on that year with regret.
When we won it again in 01 I wasn't fussed at all about not winning Connacht.
Armagh, (I reckon) would have traded half their ulster titles during the 2000s for a second all Ireland.
As another poster said alot of it goes down to where a team is in terms of expectation, experience, how long they've gone without winning a province etc.
For example if fermanagh were to win ulster they'd probably celebrate more than kerry would if they won an all Ireland."
Yes all those are factors. Certainly '98 has bitter sweet memories for us as it didn't end with Sam, same as 2000. However, as we hadn't won the province since 1956 '98 gave us some fantastic days

LilywhiteGael (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 07/05/2023 15:00:24    2476383

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Very poor crowd in MacHale Park today. Don't think people care anymore.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11561 - 07/05/2023 15:26:03    2476397

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Very poor crowd in MacHale Park today. Don't think people care anymore."
I thought it was decent, considering that it was going to be straightforward game, with the result a foregone conclusion before a ball was kicked, not to mention the fact that even the losing team is assured of at least 3 more games (very possibly 4), and there's a tonne of football to be played before we even reach the frigging quarter finals.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 07/05/2023 15:34:05    2476402

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Very poor crowd in MacHale Park today. Don't think people care anymore."
A strong reason for dismantling the open draw. Sligo did not have the respect of their own people for an easy route to the final. Galway v Mayo or Roscommon would have had a more final worthy crowd. The provincial draws should be based on league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 07/05/2023 15:39:56    2476407

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A totally uncompetitive munster final.
2/3 empty stadium.
Éamon Fitzmaurice commentating.
Things are about to get wild.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 07/05/2023 16:02:22    2476429

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I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 524 - 07/05/2023 18:00:01    2476470

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Replying To Greenfield:  "I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles."
Atrocious fare on offer today.
And now each team has 3 non knockout games to look forward to, followed by a round of preliminary quarter finals.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 07/05/2023 18:06:49    2476471

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Replying To Greenfield:  "I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles."
That's a bit harsh. In the next 100 years, a weaker county could win one. Then it will be worth it!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1468 - 07/05/2023 18:21:44    2476477

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Replying To Greenfield:  "I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles."
Be great to see if Meath are competitive in the tailtean.

OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1793 - 07/05/2023 18:28:26    2476481

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Very poor crowd in MacHale Park today. Don't think people care anymore."
Connacht GAA charging 35 euro for tickets was stupid. Match played in MacHale park because we are told Markievicz Park was too small yet only 11,867 turned up to Castlebar a sized crowd that Markievicz Park could have hosted.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 4039 - 07/05/2023 18:29:11    2476482

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Replying To Greenfield:  "I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles."
The Connacht final should have been an all Division 1 final. The biggest case ever for scrapping the open draw and having provincial draws based on league placing. Mayo, Galway and Roscommon were the top 3 in Division 1. Today's Connacht final should have been all about what is good in Connacht football at the moment.
4 out of 6 Munster teams were in the final 16 last year. Cork, Clare and Limerick are battling in that middle tier. Clare were in the Munster final on merit. They were the 3rd ranked Munster team in the league. They beat the 2nd and 4th ranked Munster teams to make the final. Good scheduling today would have been an early Munster final before an all Division 1 Connacht final.
Next Sunday will have an early Leinster final before the Ulster final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 07/05/2023 18:50:51    2476490

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Replying To Greenfield:  "I assume all of the die-hard provincial fans on here thought those games were great entertainment today despite the small crowds and zero atmosphere?

Heart-warming to see the 2 winners scoop their 49th and 84th titles."
So what have Meath won recently?

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2614 - 07/05/2023 19:52:32    2476513

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