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Ok so, the reason from a Kildare poster that Kildare haven't been able to transition underage success into a side competing nationally is because they have to play Dublin in CP jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 27/04/2023 12:35:35 2474220 Link 5 |
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Fair point. Dublin playing home league games in Croke Park since 2011 has made the problem worse. It's amusing to read Dubs calling Croke Park neutral when it's their designated home venue for league and championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 27/04/2023 12:58:23 2474222 Link 0 |
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Look most people agree that Croke park is an advantage for Dublin but unless we can beam it to the country we have to get on with it. Finals should be played in the biggest stadia. Most home pitches are advantageous cos of support and pitch familiarity. Now underage croke park is nt that big of an advantage to Dublin. The senior football team play there so often yes it's an advantage but IMO for the Dublin hurlers Parnell park gives them the advantage and probably teams like KK Galway are better off playing Dubs in C. P as the very familiar. In the interest of fairness I don't think Dublin should have Croke park for a neutral game in football but of course Dublin should be allowed home games there (it's not their fault the park in in Dublin). Finals for me have to be in croke park. Now there are no reasons why semi finals could nt be played in other big stadia if counties agreed. However to be fair to fans we need to accommodate them and again if Dublin play in a big match not many stadia can hold the crowd. Most Dublin fans I know would love to see Dublin play more games on the road but on the flip side lots of counties like the CP experience too. Parnell park is nt big enough for the football fans. CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3904 - 27/04/2023 13:17:05 2474230 Link 0 |
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Kildare are a weird one. Unlike ourselves they have been consistently decent for a while now and also have good underage teams. But for whatever reason they cant seem to break into the top 6 teams in the country. Meath10 (Meath) - Posts: 199 - 27/04/2023 14:21:10 2474258 Link 0 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]If Antrim had the same advantages over Ulster teams as Dublin has over Leinster teams they would be winning their first Ulster titles in less than 10 years and winning them regularly there after. BTW Kildare are producing top underage teams for well over a decade or more, have beaten Dublin at U20 in each of the last 3 years, not to mention an all Ireland in 2018. cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 167 - 27/04/2023 15:50:44 2474272 Link 0 |
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I think the GAA has to be about more than scheduling logic. Bad enough that the Railway Cup was systematically run down. Our provinces are historic, and preserving local identity is at the heart of the GAA. A provincial championship would mean everything to some weaker counties, and it still means a lot to established counties, possibly apart from Dublin and Kerry. points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 293 - 28/04/2023 09:16:19 2474315 Link 0 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]If Antrim had the same advantages over Ulster teams as Dublin has over Leinster teams they would be winning their first Ulster titles in less than 10 years and winning them regularly there after. BTW Kildare are producing top underage teams for well over a decade or more, have beaten Dublin at U20 in each of the last 3 years, not to mention an all Ireland in 2018."]It's a real stretch to say, we're competitive at underage therefore it's the home advantage that is the real difference here. There's more than just underage county teams bubbling up to make a senior panel. There's also the quality and depth of Dublin's club football that's going to contribute. Dublin have a way better strength and depth of player than Kildare and home advantage is barely moving the needle at all. I don't know Kildare football but i've played in Meath and have looked at the underage set up there. They are 2 focused on the county set up at underage. You'd look at Meath's development squads over a number of years and think all is ok in Meath and it is isn't. You look at Dublin underage and it's all about the club at that level and the quality of club games that I've seen at underage in Dublin v Meath is night and day. If Kildare looks like Meath it doesn't surprise me that they could be strong at underage county level but not a senior. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 28/04/2023 10:19:44 2474323 Link 4 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]If Antrim had the same advantages over Ulster teams as Dublin has over Leinster teams they would be winning their first Ulster titles in less than 10 years and winning them regularly there after. BTW Kildare are producing top underage teams for well over a decade or more, have beaten Dublin at U20 in each of the last 3 years, not to mention an all Ireland in 2018."]It's a real stretch to say, we're competitive at underage therefore it's the home advantage that is the real difference here. There's more than just underage county teams bubbling up to make a senior panel. There's also the quality and depth of Dublin's club football that's going to contribute. Dublin have a way better strength and depth of player than Kildare and home advantage is barely moving the needle at all. I don't know Kildare football but i've played in Meath and have looked at the underage set up there. They are 2 focused on the county set up at underage. You'd look at Meath's development squads over a number of years and think all is ok in Meath and it is isn't. You look at Dublin underage and it's all about the club at that level and the quality of club games that I've seen at underage in Dublin v Meath is night and day. If Kildare looks like Meath it doesn't surprise me that they could be strong at underage county level but not a senior."]Meath club football has nothing to do with Kildare. The club game is decent in Kildare but like most counties could be a lot better. How you can dismiss a constant home advantage to one team being irrelevant is a bit mad, you just have to pick any other sport in the world to measure the difference it makes.. the probability of a win for a home team is increased by a significant amount anywhere you look. Dublin would most likely win a championship game if it was in Newbridge, but over any 10 year period you would have a few, maybe even just 1 or 2 home wins, but that's enough, that keeps the interest, reduces player turnover, improves the team further, makes them a regular div 1 team,and a great shot at silverware. That is enough. There's literally 20 million other advantages Dublin have over other teams in Leinster but I'm not looking for miracles, just basic fair play in the competition. cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 167 - 28/04/2023 11:54:16 2474348 Link 0 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]Dublin played most of their championship matches outside of Croke Park up until the early 2000s when OTHER Leinster counties unanimously voted to make CP a home venue. In 1995 Dublin beat Louth and Laois in Navan on way to winning AI. In 1976 and 1977, the only games Dublin had in Croke Park were the Leinster final, AI semi final and final. I remember being in all sorts of places - Carlow, Mullingar, Tullamore etc. . Out of all those games, the last one they lose was in Navan to Louth in 1973. Even when we were really bad, losing to Westmeath in Mullingar in 1967 made front page of newspapers. Dublin playing anywhere has mostly always been as irrelevant as Kerry playing anywhere"]Westmeath beat Dublin in Tullamore in the leinster. championship 1967 not Mullingar, Tommy Dolan scored a late goal. Dublin Could not have been a very bad team as they lost narrowly to Galway in the League final about four weeks previously they had Jimmy Keaveney and Paddy Cullen also about five of the 63 all ireland winners. team playing. Thefacebanks (Westmeath) - Posts: 18 - 28/04/2023 11:56:38 2474349 Link 0 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]If Antrim had the same advantages over Ulster teams as Dublin has over Leinster teams they would be winning their first Ulster titles in less than 10 years and winning them regularly there after. BTW Kildare are producing top underage teams for well over a decade or more, have beaten Dublin at U20 in each of the last 3 years, not to mention an all Ireland in 2018."]It's a real stretch to say, we're competitive at underage therefore it's the home advantage that is the real difference here. There's more than just underage county teams bubbling up to make a senior panel. There's also the quality and depth of Dublin's club football that's going to contribute. Dublin have a way better strength and depth of player than Kildare and home advantage is barely moving the needle at all. I don't know Kildare football but i've played in Meath and have looked at the underage set up there. They are 2 focused on the county set up at underage. You'd look at Meath's development squads over a number of years and think all is ok in Meath and it is isn't. You look at Dublin underage and it's all about the club at that level and the quality of club games that I've seen at underage in Dublin v Meath is night and day. If Kildare looks like Meath it doesn't surprise me that they could be strong at underage county level but not a senior."]Meath club football has nothing to do with Kildare. The club game is decent in Kildare but like most counties could be a lot better. How you can dismiss a constant home advantage to one team being irrelevant is a bit mad, you just have to pick any other sport in the world to measure the difference it makes.. the probability of a win for a home team is increased by a significant amount anywhere you look. Dublin would most likely win a championship game if it was in Newbridge, but over any 10 year period you would have a few, maybe even just 1 or 2 home wins, but that's enough, that keeps the interest, reduces player turnover, improves the team further, makes them a regular div 1 team,and a great shot at silverware. That is enough. There's literally 20 million other advantages Dublin have over other teams in Leinster but I'm not looking for miracles, just basic fair play in the competition."]What would the bookies points spread be for Dublin playing Kildare in Croke? 10, 12 points something like that. Are you getting it down to 8-10. You're not winning 2 games in 2 if you're 8 points worse than your opponent on average. It should be a more fair championship but the home advantage stuff isn't the main issue, it's that you are not even close to them. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 28/04/2023 13:56:09 2474384 Link 4 |
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Agreed but in 2016 and 2017 Mayo should have won at least one of those all Irelands. They were so unlucky and both those years they were beaten in Connaught.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3904 - 28/04/2023 20:20:25 2474442 Link 0 |
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It's all about perspective. When Mayo won 5 Connacht titles in a row everyone was telling us they were useless. Now all of a sudden depending on who you talk to they are now worth something. I always valued winning Connacht but the current setup properly does devalue them but of Sligo win it will be huge.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11561 - 29/04/2023 08:50:42 2474464 Link 3 |
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We made our own luck Mick. Rochford rotated players in and out throughout the championship. Barry Solan said that the runs though the backdoor and less gaps, less training, between games suited the squad better. For me they were our best two years since '51. Now having very good players helped! Dublin just found the way to close out both those finals. The masters at getting it done on the biggest day.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 29/04/2023 17:52:27 2474544 Link 3 |
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I think the format this year strengthens the provincial championships. Playing on average every second week is a good run of games allowing for momentum. There are interesting battles in all provinces to make the provincial finals. There are some tweaks that can be made: 1. Seeding provincial draws on league placing. 2. Where a county like Laois lose to the eventual provincial winner and had their path blocked to the final, possibly they could avoid Dublin's side of the draw in the following year. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 29/04/2023 18:55:52 2474552 Link 1 |
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True enough but Mayo were very unlucky and a few decisions went against them. Yes I agree Mayo were great in 16 and 17 but did nt win Connaught. Look i understand the provincials are brilliant for some counties but they have been devalued imogor the top counties.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3904 - 29/04/2023 20:12:56 2474570 Link 0 |
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A lot more Counties have the possibility of winning a Provincial than an AI. A possibly unforseen boost to the Provincials this year is lower middle Counties trying to avoid TC/get into Sam. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2293 - 30/04/2023 11:11:46 2474670 Link 0 |
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... and the important point again is that provincial wins stand out in the memory. People will remember that Cavan and Tipperary won provincial titles in 2020.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 30/04/2023 12:01:58 2474679 Link 0 |
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I agree. I admit the provincials are still important for the lower tier counties but my point is the provincials are diluted for the top tier cou ties. They have a safety net and my point is Mayo and Tyrone are in no worse a position now to win Sam and actually might be better off ré injuries etc
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3904 - 30/04/2023 12:51:30 2474694 Link 0 |
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All counties have to gauge injuries. Counties who have qualified through the league have earned the wiggle room that they don't need to risk injured players in the provincial championships. Seed 3s will be starting away to a provincial winner. It arguably increases the possibility of a defeat in R1.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 30/04/2023 16:45:16 2474737 Link 0 |
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Can you seriously not think of any reason why Kildare are ahead of Dublin at underage but not competing at senior?? Last night's venue might be a clue for a start.. The venue for Kildare's senior win in the league last year might be another clue.. Dublin seniors not having won a league or championship match in Newbridge in the best part of 50 years is another clue.. Maybe when Conleths opens again the cowards in the Leinster council might address the farce but I doubt it, we can't risk the riff raff competing on a level playing field with the revenue maker's can we?"]Could also be that at senior level you are getting talent over a wider net. It's going to be more likely that Kildare can have a good crop of players in a 2 year age range but to be a top senior team you need to be producing top players every year. No doubt for more fairness Dublin should be playing away more often but let's be real here, how many Leinster championships would that actually have knocked off their total?"]If Antrim had the same advantages over Ulster teams as Dublin has over Leinster teams they would be winning their first Ulster titles in less than 10 years and winning them regularly there after. BTW Kildare are producing top underage teams for well over a decade or more, have beaten Dublin at U20 in each of the last 3 years, not to mention an all Ireland in 2018."]It's a real stretch to say, we're competitive at underage therefore it's the home advantage that is the real difference here. There's more than just underage county teams bubbling up to make a senior panel. There's also the quality and depth of Dublin's club football that's going to contribute. Dublin have a way better strength and depth of player than Kildare and home advantage is barely moving the needle at all. I don't know Kildare football but i've played in Meath and have looked at the underage set up there. They are 2 focused on the county set up at underage. You'd look at Meath's development squads over a number of years and think all is ok in Meath and it is isn't. You look at Dublin underage and it's all about the club at that level and the quality of club games that I've seen at underage in Dublin v Meath is night and day. If Kildare looks like Meath it doesn't surprise me that they could be strong at underage county level but not a senior."]Meath club football has nothing to do with Kildare. The club game is decent in Kildare but like most counties could be a lot better. How you can dismiss a constant home advantage to one team being irrelevant is a bit mad, you just have to pick any other sport in the world to measure the difference it makes.. the probability of a win for a home team is increased by a significant amount anywhere you look. Dublin would most likely win a championship game if it was in Newbridge, but over any 10 year period you would have a few, maybe even just 1 or 2 home wins, but that's enough, that keeps the interest, reduces player turnover, improves the team further, makes them a regular div 1 team,and a great shot at silverware. That is enough. There's literally 20 million other advantages Dublin have over other teams in Leinster but I'm not looking for miracles, just basic fair play in the competition."]What would the bookies points spread be for Dublin playing Kildare in Croke? 10, 12 points something like that. Are you getting it down to 8-10. You're not winning 2 games in 2 if you're 8 points worse than your opponent on average. It should be a more fair championship but the home advantage stuff isn't the main issue, it's that you are not even close to them."]I rest my case my lord.. cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 167 - 30/04/2023 19:52:09 2474803 Link 0 |