National Forum

Lack Of Jeopardy In Division 1 Hurling

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Point 2 there is the key one. The league is finished as a worthwhile competition, since the round robin expanded championship arrived on the scene. The league is basically a set of preseason challenge matches now, to prepare for the only competition that counts in April-July."
Nailed it.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 28/02/2023 12:27:11    2460929

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The top 9 in the country are Limerick, Kilkenny, Clare, Galway, Cork, Wexford, Waterford, Dublin and Tipperary.
The next 9 are Antrim, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Kerry, Kildare, Down and Meath.
A division 1B that has 3 of the top 9 and 3 of the next 9 is fair. Sure Division 1A is dog eat dog but the onus should be on managers to find the right balance. When 1B was not a hindrance to winning an All-Ireland, it meant it provided a fair level of competition."
1b was a benefit not a hindrance.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 28/02/2023 12:33:28    2460933

Link

The lower tiers in hurling are nearly a replica of the lower tier championships. There should be some diversity of competition. If Division 1 is to remain 2 groups of 6, possibly the lower divisions can be as follows:
Division 2 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 3 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 4 - 7 teams. 2 promoted.
No need for lower league finals. Give them at least two weeks to prepare for their various championship levels.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 28/02/2023 17:18:20    2461026

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Yeah, Westmeath should be in Division 1B with Antrim, Laois and 3 counties from the top 9.
Within the current format, relegating 1 from 12 is not enough. If the current format is to be retained, both 6th placed teams in Division 1 should be relegated. The top 2 in Division 2A should be promoted. It'll give the top 2 in 2A a year in Division 1 a year with valuable lessons.
My preference is a return to 1A for 1 to 6 and 1B for 7 to 12."
That is a fairer grouping of league teams. If Offaly were to win Div. 2A, they would struggle in the current format. Something like Laois, Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly, Kerry, Dublin, would be my preferred grouping..

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 28/02/2023 18:58:01    2461044

Link

Replying To foreveryoung:  "I'd say switch Wexford and Dublin, and you'd have balanced enough divisions."
What is with your vendetta?

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3567 - 28/02/2023 21:46:21    2461067

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "1b was a benefit not a hindrance."
Totally agree a fair setup

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1698 - 01/03/2023 08:48:48    2461073

Link

At the moment league one is designed to protect 8 or 9 counties allowing them to prepare for the championship. While there has been a lot of development and progression of lower ranked counties below league 1, the league 1 structure itself does not support development of counties trying to progress from Tier 2. Some have said on here that any changes could lead to one sided matches, but that is the nature of hurling and happens even between the 'top' hurling counties (see Clare v Wexford last week). In any case if the design was to avoid one sided matches why are the 2a promoted team leapfrogged into a league with the top 2 or 3 counties, rather than the the 6th to 11th best.
The hurling leagues are reasonable up to Division 1 because they are tiered and pit those of more similar ability against each other - of course you will have some teams better than other and they will no doubt be promoted. That is the nature of a league.
Another suggestion discussed here is that Division 1 cannot be tiered into Divisions 1 and 2, as the top counties won't take it seriously as happened a few years ago with 1a and 1b. Well I say that is fine. If the top counties don't take the league seriously and are confident enough to treat the league as a series of challenge matches, don't pander to them but create a proper league set up that works for those counties trying to develop. While the league is the secondary competition it will never be taken as seriously by those with realistic championship prospects, whatever the design. They may take the leagues more seriously if they are in danger of dropping further down the leagues as other counties progress and think that this might impact their championship form.
Other than scheduling, I don't think it matters much if the league 1 has 6 or 8 teams as long as it there is promotion and relegation on a truly tiered basis.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 08:57:44    2461077

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "What is with your vendetta?"
He likes winding us up because we always bite!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 09:39:55    2461085

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The lower tiers in hurling are nearly a replica of the lower tier championships. There should be some diversity of competition. If Division 1 is to remain 2 groups of 6, possibly the lower divisions can be as follows:
Division 2 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 3 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 4 - 7 teams. 2 promoted.
No need for lower league finals. Give them at least two weeks to prepare for their various championship levels."
Division 1b should be called Division 2 if they bring it back as a 2nd Division.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 09:41:20    2461087

Link

Replying To Firceall:  "At the moment league one is designed to protect 8 or 9 counties allowing them to prepare for the championship. While there has been a lot of development and progression of lower ranked counties below league 1, the league 1 structure itself does not support development of counties trying to progress from Tier 2. Some have said on here that any changes could lead to one sided matches, but that is the nature of hurling and happens even between the 'top' hurling counties (see Clare v Wexford last week). In any case if the design was to avoid one sided matches why are the 2a promoted team leapfrogged into a league with the top 2 or 3 counties, rather than the the 6th to 11th best.
The hurling leagues are reasonable up to Division 1 because they are tiered and pit those of more similar ability against each other - of course you will have some teams better than other and they will no doubt be promoted. That is the nature of a league.
Another suggestion discussed here is that Division 1 cannot be tiered into Divisions 1 and 2, as the top counties won't take it seriously as happened a few years ago with 1a and 1b. Well I say that is fine. If the top counties don't take the league seriously and are confident enough to treat the league as a series of challenge matches, don't pander to them but create a proper league set up that works for those counties trying to develop. While the league is the secondary competition it will never be taken as seriously by those with realistic championship prospects, whatever the design. They may take the leagues more seriously if they are in danger of dropping further down the leagues as other counties progress and think that this might impact their championship form.
Other than scheduling, I don't think it matters much if the league 1 has 6 or 8 teams as long as it there is promotion and relegation on a truly tiered basis."
The main reason it was changed was the 6 teams in the old 1a thought the 2 best teams in 1b had an unfair advantage come Championship

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 09:42:41    2461088

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "That is a fairer grouping of league teams. If Offaly were to win Div. 2A, they would struggle in the current format. Something like Laois, Westmeath, Antrim, Offaly, Kerry, Dublin, would be my preferred grouping.."
Why would Dublin be downgraded in this?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 10:01:20    2461097

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "The main reason it was changed was the 6 teams in the old 1a thought the 2 best teams in 1b had an unfair advantage come Championship"
Yes, I understand why it was changed, but don't think that is reason to change the whole nature of the league system. Any team in Division 1 or 1a could have used the league for preparation in any way they wanted as has always been the case.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 10:06:31    2461100

Link

Replying To Firceall:  "Yes, I understand why it was changed, but don't think that is reason to change the whole nature of the league system. Any team in Division 1 or 1a could have used the league for preparation in any way they wanted as has always been the case."
Yes but there were counties who couldn't countenance being in 1b. Not looking at Cork now but......

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 10:46:51    2461123

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "Yes but there were counties who couldn't countenance being in 1b. Not looking at Cork now but......"
I seem to recall Meyler throwing a strop one time too when it was Wexford?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 10:50:23    2461125

Link

Replying To Viking66:  "Yes but there were counties who couldn't countenance being in 1b. Not looking at Cork now but......"
That may be so but, assuming there is no radical change to make the league the primary competition, lets look and what we want to achieve from a secondary competition, Is it for the benefit of preparation for championship for the top 8 or so counties or is it a genuine league that rewards those who progress and develop at all levels. If the latter, then it has to be a straight league with straight promotion and relegation to and from the next level, not a system designed so top counties don't need to worry about dropping divisions.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 10:59:36    2461130

Link

The gap week between R3 and R4 isn't really beneficial to anyone. R1, R2 and R3 could be played on consecutive weeks. After a mid league season weekend off, the remaining rounds can be played off over 4 weekends, giving everyone a few weeks preparation for the championship.
Dublin have accepted Division 2 football. Any hurling county can accept Division 1B hurling.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 01/03/2023 11:15:48    2461137

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The gap week between R3 and R4 isn't really beneficial to anyone. R1, R2 and R3 could be played on consecutive weeks. After a mid league season weekend off, the remaining rounds can be played off over 4 weekends, giving everyone a few weeks preparation for the championship.
Dublin have accepted Division 2 football. Any hurling county can accept Division 1B hurling."
The distinction between 1a and 1b in hurling is pretty much minimal. It is just a convenient separation of the top 12 counties based on merit. The only "flaw" is that it contains three counties that are a bit off the pace and have won promotion in recent years. Strong competition between them as to which stays up. Very rare indeed that one of the relegation zone teams gets a point against any of the other 9.

It is the fairest system, however, and there is no basis for throwing Dublin or Wexford (the only two who for some reason totally unrelated to their performance in the league going back 15 years and longer have been proposed!) into a group with counties who are mostly not even in senior championship.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 11:34:28    2461145

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I seem to recall Meyler throwing a strop one time too when it was Wexford?"
Don't think so. Since the 90s we have often been in the 2nd tier of the League. Even in 96 both us and Limerick were in the 2nd tier.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 11:36:55    2461148

Link

Replying To Firceall:  "That may be so but, assuming there is no radical change to make the league the primary competition, lets look and what we want to achieve from a secondary competition, Is it for the benefit of preparation for championship for the top 8 or so counties or is it a genuine league that rewards those who progress and develop at all levels. If the latter, then it has to be a straight league with straight promotion and relegation to and from the next level, not a system designed so top counties don't need to worry about dropping divisions."
Agree 100 percent. On balance I think we should return to 5 divisions, the top 2 having six teams each, and 1 up and 1 down between them with no stupid pointless League semi finals or finals. You finish top of your division you win it because you earned that right by finishing top. And no stupid div1b. That should be called div2.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 11:39:47    2461151

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The distinction between 1a and 1b in hurling is pretty much minimal. It is just a convenient separation of the top 12 counties based on merit. The only "flaw" is that it contains three counties that are a bit off the pace and have won promotion in recent years. Strong competition between them as to which stays up. Very rare indeed that one of the relegation zone teams gets a point against any of the other 9.

It is the fairest system, however, and there is no basis for throwing Dublin or Wexford (the only two who for some reason totally unrelated to their performance in the league going back 15 years and longer have been proposed!) into a group with counties who are mostly not even in senior championship."
Agree that no team, whether it be Dublin, Wexford or any other County should be earmarked for a revised 2nd division. Any change would need to based on merit, e.g. by current league results. Unfortunately 1a and 1b are currently a bit skewed so there is a good case to state that the team finishing in 4th or 5th place in 1a may be as good as the team finishing in 3rd in 1b. Alternatively as the provincial Championships are now leagues as well, the placings in those could be used to determine league position for the first year. Whatever system is used to determine the Div 1 and 2 split is not going to be perfect in the first year, but If a team is too good for a new division 2 they will be promoted that year.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 12:42:56    2461177

Link