National Forum

Lack Of Jeopardy In Division 1 Hurling

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Replying To Viking66:  "Don't think so. Since the 90s we have often been in the 2nd tier of the League. Even in 96 both us and Limerick were in the 2nd tier."
Oh yes!

2008, and while it was okay for Dublin (who had drawn with Wexford and had better points difference by a good margin) to be relegated, not so for Wexford!

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/sport/other-sports/meyler-slams-mind-boggling-decision-27696027.html

Anyway, Wexford were promoted the year later from a division II that looked not unlike the one proposed by some here.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 12:59:12    2461179

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The gap week between R3 and R4 isn't really beneficial to anyone. R1, R2 and R3 could be played on consecutive weeks. After a mid league season weekend off, the remaining rounds can be played off over 4 weekends, giving everyone a few weeks preparation for the championship.
Dublin have accepted Division 2 football. Any hurling county can accept Division 1B hurling."
Stop calling it 1b. Its division 2. And Wexford and Dublin and their supporters have no problem being there we have spent many years there since I'm around. It was Cork that pushed for the last restructuring. The British empire of the hurling world; )

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 13:22:59    2461191

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The gap week between R3 and R4 isn't really beneficial to anyone. R1, R2 and R3 could be played on consecutive weeks. After a mid league season weekend off, the remaining rounds can be played off over 4 weekends, giving everyone a few weeks preparation for the championship.
Dublin have accepted Division 2 football. Any hurling county can accept Division 1B hurling."
Stop calling it 1b. Its division 2. And Wexford and Dublin and their supporters have no problem being there we have spent many years there since I'm around. It was Cork that pushed for the last restructuring. The British empire of the hurling world; )

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 13:25:21    2461193

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Replying To Firceall:  "Agree that no team, whether it be Dublin, Wexford or any other County should be earmarked for a revised 2nd division. Any change would need to based on merit, e.g. by current league results. Unfortunately 1a and 1b are currently a bit skewed so there is a good case to state that the team finishing in 4th or 5th place in 1a may be as good as the team finishing in 3rd in 1b. Alternatively as the provincial Championships are now leagues as well, the placings in those could be used to determine league position for the first year. Whatever system is used to determine the Div 1 and 2 split is not going to be perfect in the first year, but If a team is too good for a new division 2 they will be promoted that year."
Yes exactly. There should be an open draw for the 6 teams to be in the new Division 2 and it will settle out within 3 years.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 13:27:28    2461194

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The distinction between 1a and 1b in hurling is pretty much minimal. It is just a convenient separation of the top 12 counties based on merit. The only "flaw" is that it contains three counties that are a bit off the pace and have won promotion in recent years. Strong competition between them as to which stays up. Very rare indeed that one of the relegation zone teams gets a point against any of the other 9.

It is the fairest system, however, and there is no basis for throwing Dublin or Wexford (the only two who for some reason totally unrelated to their performance in the league going back 15 years and longer have been proposed!) into a group with counties who are mostly not even in senior championship."
There are 11 teams in the provincial championships. Division 1B has provided All-Ireland winners. Just as Dublin footballers are in Division 2 for a year, hurling counties must be men enough to accept relegation and get on with the game.
If Waterford, Tipperary and Dublin were in 1B, applying the current 2A format, Tipperary v Dublin might be a 1B semi-final. Waterford v Tipperary or Dublin might be a 1B final for promotion. A perfectly fair format. If it is ok for 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B, it can be good enough for 1B.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 01/03/2023 13:29:38    2461195

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I seem to recall Meyler throwing a strop one time too when it was Wexford?"
We were right to be annoyed.

We got a result vs tipp in thurles to stay up and the relegated us anyway. Limerick won promotion too but we're left there after the fact

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3567 - 01/03/2023 13:41:47    2461201

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There are 11 teams in the provincial championships. Division 1B has provided All-Ireland winners. Just as Dublin footballers are in Division 2 for a year, hurling counties must be men enough to accept relegation and get on with the game.
If Waterford, Tipperary and Dublin were in 1B, applying the current 2A format, Tipperary v Dublin might be a 1B semi-final. Waterford v Tipperary or Dublin might be a 1B final for promotion. A perfectly fair format. If it is ok for 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B, it can be good enough for 1B."
There's no comparison between 2A and the top two divisions. Which is why there is only one promotion and why so few manage to stay up. There is a clear gap between the best teams in 2A - who are always the same by the way - and the rest.

There is not a chance that Kildare or Meath would be other than slaughtered against any of the Division I teams and they would hardly thank anyone for having that inflicted upon them. They know that the key to progress lies in what they are doing themselves.

On the other hand, there are teams in the third football league that would give most of the teams in the top two some sort of match,

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 15:02:16    2461223

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Oh yes!

2008, and while it was okay for Dublin (who had drawn with Wexford and had better points difference by a good margin) to be relegated, not so for Wexford!

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/sport/other-sports/meyler-slams-mind-boggling-decision-27696027.html

Anyway, Wexford were promoted the year later from a division II that looked not unlike the one proposed by some here."
I'm here since the early 90s and we'd make a yoyo look like a lollypop in that time Barney.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 15:12:08    2461225

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There are 11 teams in the provincial championships. Division 1B has provided All-Ireland winners. Just as Dublin footballers are in Division 2 for a year, hurling counties must be men enough to accept relegation and get on with the game.
If Waterford, Tipperary and Dublin were in 1B, applying the current 2A format, Tipperary v Dublin might be a 1B semi-final. Waterford v Tipperary or Dublin might be a 1B final for promotion. A perfectly fair format. If it is ok for 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B, it can be good enough for 1B."
Ah forget about league semi finals and finals. They take up too much time and defeat the whole object of a League in the 1st place. The aim in a League is to finish top of it by accumulating the most points or having better scoring difference or head to head record. We aren't American.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 15:15:07    2461228

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "We were right to be annoyed.

We got a result vs tipp in thurles to stay up and the relegated us anyway. Limerick won promotion too but we're left there after the fact"
Ah that time? I wasnt unhappy about being relegated as such, just ****** off that we were relegated after staying up on the pitch.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 15:16:28    2461229

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Oh yes!

2008, and while it was okay for Dublin (who had drawn with Wexford and had better points difference by a good margin) to be relegated, not so for Wexford!

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/sport/other-sports/meyler-slams-mind-boggling-decision-27696027.html

Anyway, Wexford were promoted the year later from a division II that looked not unlike the one proposed by some here."
Correct me if I am wrong Wexicans, but I think John Meyler's gripe was that Wexford were relegated on scoring difference while Cork had handed walk-overs to Kilkenny and others at the time who they would have been beaten by a cricket score given their strike.
Wexford were screwed by that re-structure and relegated, Cork stayed in the top division.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 01/03/2023 15:18:40    2461230

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Firceall, it is more than the league is protected by the top teams. In the Championship, 1 province has relegation and promotion yet another (no matter how bad the likes of Waterford and Tipp were in recent years) has a safety net.
The top counties have protected themselves so well it is laughable. And they couldn't give a #### if Laois or Offaly when they get up their suffer promotion and relegation once their own lot is protected.
I fear a Dublin relegation some year if things go badly pear shaped, yet there is no such peril for any of the Munster counties.
The game will never develop as long as the top counties pull the ladder up behind them and throw a scrap or two to the likes of Westmeath, Laois, Antrim, Offaly, etc where they are trying to develop the game and make progress.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 01/03/2023 15:22:21    2461233

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There's no comparison between 2A and the top two divisions. Which is why there is only one promotion and why so few manage to stay up. There is a clear gap between the best teams in 2A - who are always the same by the way - and the rest.

There is not a chance that Kildare or Meath would be other than slaughtered against any of the Division I teams and they would hardly thank anyone for having that inflicted upon them. They know that the key to progress lies in what they are doing themselves.

On the other hand, there are teams in the third football league that would give most of the teams in the top two some sort of match,"
So from what you are saying above the current system isn't working because teams aren't developing. This is a very good reason to replace the current 1a and 1b system with a straight division 1 and 2.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 15:39:29    2461238

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There's no comparison between 2A and the top two divisions. Which is why there is only one promotion and why so few manage to stay up. There is a clear gap between the best teams in 2A - who are always the same by the way - and the rest.

There is not a chance that Kildare or Meath would be other than slaughtered against any of the Division I teams and they would hardly thank anyone for having that inflicted upon them. They know that the key to progress lies in what they are doing themselves.

On the other hand, there are teams in the third football league that would give most of the teams in the top two some sort of match,"
Division 1B (7 to 12) is a fair platform for the 2A winner. Division 2A is a fair platform for the 2B winner.
Football has 8 quarter-finalists and brackets of 8 suits the National Football League. Hurling has 6 teams in the quarter-finals and semi-finals. Brackets of 6 suits the National Hurling League. The top 9 hurling counties have to become men and accept Division 1B (7 to 12) when merited.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 01/03/2023 16:16:17    2461247

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "We were right to be annoyed.

We got a result vs tipp in thurles to stay up and the relegated us anyway. Limerick won promotion too but we're left there after the fact"
Wexford were in the bottom two to be relegated. How do you make out they ought not to have been? Tipp were in the other section so had nothing to do with it.


Meyler's argument was firstly there ought to have been a play off with Dublin - the implication of which that it was grand if it was Dublin relegated and not Wexford! - but mostly that Wexford just shouldn't be relegated for any reason!

He did have a point about the way the league was then organised, which is similar to the proposals above.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 16:35:15    2461252

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As others said the gap between division 2 and division 1 is too large and cant be compared to football in that respect.
I was a fan of the old league format and wasn't sure why they changed it but now I can see that it can only do good for Westmeath Antrim and Laois to compete with top teams every week. Eventually the hidings will pay off. If your old enough you will remember Clare, Waterford , Galway and Dublin got multiple hidings over the decades before they established themselves at the top. What we need are more teams at the top and I cant see any other way of expediting it. Forget cracking league matches, thats what the championship is for.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 01/03/2023 16:53:38    2461257

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Firceall, it is more than the league is protected by the top teams. In the Championship, 1 province has relegation and promotion yet another (no matter how bad the likes of Waterford and Tipp were in recent years) has a safety net.
The top counties have protected themselves so well it is laughable. And they couldn't give a #### if Laois or Offaly when they get up their suffer promotion and relegation once their own lot is protected.
I fear a Dublin relegation some year if things go badly pear shaped, yet there is no such peril for any of the Munster counties.
The game will never develop as long as the top counties pull the ladder up behind them and throw a scrap or two to the likes of Westmeath, Laois, Antrim, Offaly, etc where they are trying to develop the game and make progress."
Tipp and Waterford face the same peril as Dublin and Kilkenny in 1B surely? Truth is the three teams in the relegation zone are really only capable of beating one another so it is almost a separate competition to stay up.

It is certainly possible that Dublin might be in danger if standards drop but that will be of our own doing, and merited, No one will be whinging and if anyone did they would not be listened to. Survival in the top flight has always been first priority. No matter what anyone might say about higher ambitions, and it is something we have managed to do for 15 years. No small achievement given where we were prior to that.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3509 - 01/03/2023 16:58:10    2461262

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Correct me if I am wrong Wexicans, but I think John Meyler's gripe was that Wexford were relegated on scoring difference while Cork had handed walk-overs to Kilkenny and others at the time who they would have been beaten by a cricket score given their strike.
Wexford were screwed by that re-structure and relegated, Cork stayed in the top division."
Cork are responsible for the current poor system too.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 01/03/2023 17:11:48    2461271

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Wexford were in the bottom two to be relegated. How do you make out they ought not to have been? Tipp were in the other section so had nothing to do with it.


Meyler's argument was firstly there ought to have been a play off with Dublin - the implication of which that it was grand if it was Dublin relegated and not Wexford! - but mostly that Wexford just shouldn't be relegated for any reason!

He did have a point about the way the league was then organised, which is similar to the proposals above."
Yes John Meyler had a point; when teams are relegated in the league or championship it does become more difficult to develop, it becomes more difficult to motivate and keep players, children and the public in general lose interest, less income is generated. So it can become a downward spiral. This is an argument for letting all teams back into provisional championships if they wish, but that is a discussion for another thread.
So despite the risks inherent in relegation, I don't think the answer can be that the top teams are protected and it is made more difficult for lower teams to develop? At the end of the day a league should be on a tiered basis placing teams in divisions dependent on their performance. That way promoted teams are more likely to be able to develop further. If the aim is to expand hurling throughout the country (and this is happening to an extent at the lower levels), then division 1 teams will just have to run the risk of begin relegated to Division 2 and Division 3.

Firceall (Offaly) - Posts: 35 - 01/03/2023 17:27:20    2461280

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Replying To ZUL10:  "As others said the gap between division 2 and division 1 is too large and cant be compared to football in that respect.
I was a fan of the old league format and wasn't sure why they changed it but now I can see that it can only do good for Westmeath Antrim and Laois to compete with top teams every week. Eventually the hidings will pay off. If your old enough you will remember Clare, Waterford , Galway and Dublin got multiple hidings over the decades before they established themselves at the top. What we need are more teams at the top and I cant see any other way of expediting it. Forget cracking league matches, thats what the championship is for."
Using last year's provincial championships as a guide, it would suit Westmeath Antrim and Laois to be in Division 1B (7-12) with Waterford, Dublin and Tipperary.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 01/03/2023 17:27:35    2461281

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