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Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To wexico15:  "Also if all your looking for is gripes you'll never find a system to keep you happy as I think a perfect system in impossible to find. I taught there was flaws to option B but the pros outweighed the cons."
Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions would have had a better chance.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 27/10/2021 11:40:39    2387566

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Replying To brianb:  "Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions would have had a better chance."
I wouldn't have been opposed to that like yourself but I'm sure others would have picked a gripe with it, way of the world weather we like it or not.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 12:12:03    2387570

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Replying To wexico15:  "That 4 in a row was 100 years ago, literally nothing to do with this debate. The qualifiers actually worked quite well for the 1st 10 years or so of their existence but they've been running out of steam for the last 7 or 8 years, it all comes back to the provincials. Leinster was very competitive 2001-5 and even in the 5 or 6 years after that Dublin actually got competitive games in the province, Munster was Cork or Kerry unfortunately Cork have fallen back in recent years. Connacht and Ulster were competitive. Interesting listening to Kieran Shannon last week he believes the change of the league from 1A,1B,2A,2B to Div 1,2,3,4 improved the league but made the championship worse almost creating a cartel of the top 4-6 teams."
If lower teams want more football , let Div4 teams meet each other, the 4 winners play the bottom 4 from Div 3, on other side the top 4 from Div 3 v the bottom 4 from Div 2, get it down to last 4 and they join the top 12 in open draw. Plenty of football for teams of their own standard.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1018 - 27/10/2021 12:21:34    2387571

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Replying To brianb:  "Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions would have had a better chance."
That does sound like a better option, there needs to be a proper prize for winning the province otherwise the provincial systems will be dead 130 years of history wiped out in 1 foul swoop.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 27/10/2021 12:28:06    2387573

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Replying To brianb:  "Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions would have had a better chance."
Supporters of Proposal B have already said they would oppose any provincial link and still want a Div 3 or 4 champion in. The 7th and 8th teams are still gone. Lots of people saying that's how leagues work. It's not. No county does this with their club championship. Norwich aren't in the Champions League because they won the Championship. Counties want a tiered championship. That's fine. But just have the same structure as hurling or ladies football or the clubs instead.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 27/10/2021 12:52:13    2387580

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Replying To Saynothing:  "If lower teams want more football , let Div4 teams meet each other, the 4 winners play the bottom 4 from Div 3, on other side the top 4 from Div 3 v the bottom 4 from Div 2, get it down to last 4 and they join the top 12 in open draw. Plenty of football for teams of their own standard."
That's exactly what opinion B offered. A provincial round robin in winter/spring and then 7 league/championship games for every team in the country with knockout places, promotion and relegation on the line against teams in theory of their own standard.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 12:55:39    2387582

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Replying To wexico15:  "That's exactly what opinion B offered. A provincial round robin in winter/spring and then 7 league/championship games for every team in the country with knockout places, promotion and relegation on the line against teams in theory of their own standard."
It offered knockout places to teams competing 3 division below the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal. Took the concept of a league and turned it upside down. That's why B failed and will fail again until Div 3 and 4 sides accept that should fight their way up or win the provincial if they want to compete for Sam.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 27/10/2021 13:09:52    2387584

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Interesting discussion last night Colm Keys of the Indo brought up the Cork CEO addressing the Div 3 and 4 winners issue at congress making the comparison of the Joe Mcdonagh finalists in hurling playing a preliminary quarter final, Colm is of the suspicion that there's more of a faternity feel to the hurling where the Liam McCarthy level teams are happy to see lower level teams progress and get an opportunity like Laois beating Dublin in 2019, in football he suspects the stronger counties are happy enough to keep the lower teams where they are and not progress and become more competitive.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 13:33:42    2387590

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Supporters of Proposal B have already said they would oppose any provincial link and still want a Div 3 or 4 champion in. The 7th and 8th teams are still gone. Lots of people saying that's how leagues work. It's not. No county does this with their club championship. Norwich aren't in the Champions League because they won the Championship. Counties want a tiered championship. That's fine. But just have the same structure as hurling or ladies football or the clubs instead."
I agree with a lot of that. Proposal B was "tiered" but not actually tiered.

I'm not sure what supporters of Proposal B actually want though. That they prefer Proposal B to the current championship is clear but after that its a bit muddy. Many supporters thought it was a stepping stone and needed tweaks - but a stepping stone to where?

I'm also not sure what everyone who was against Proposal B want. They prefer the current championship as a stepping stone to proposal B as a stepping stone but again without much clarity of where we want to go.

I guess you could be for it or against it for a few different reasons.

Proposal B with every team getting a chance through the provincial route rather than division 3 & 4 seems to be the reasonable compromise here. I'd add that we'd also likely want to include the prior year winners of both the Sam Maguire and the Tailteann Cup in the knock out rounds.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 27/10/2021 14:08:16    2387594

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Is there a date yet for hurling and football finals??

novalis (Carlow) - Posts: 298 - 27/10/2021 14:13:23    2387596

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Replying To wexico15:  "Interesting discussion last night Colm Keys of the Indo brought up the Cork CEO addressing the Div 3 and 4 winners issue at congress making the comparison of the Joe Mcdonagh finalists in hurling playing a preliminary quarter final, Colm is of the suspicion that there's more of a faternity feel to the hurling where the Liam McCarthy level teams are happy to see lower level teams progress and get an opportunity like Laois beating Dublin in 2019, in football he suspects the stronger counties are happy enough to keep the lower teams where they are and not progress and become more competitive."
I still don't think that's a fair comparison. If we had tiered the competition like hurling with 11 teams in tier 1 and so on I don't think there'd be opposition to the 12th & 13th teams being advanced.

Hurling operates a closed shop in a different way. Having 12 teams in Division 1 with only team promoted/relegated doesn't do a lot to help the lower tiers. Surely 7 games against the teams at the 2nd half of the top tier would be a lot more beneficial than a one off game against a top 6 team?

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 27/10/2021 14:26:00    2387599

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Replying To brianb:  "I still don't think that's a fair comparison. If we had tiered the competition like hurling with 11 teams in tier 1 and so on I don't think there'd be opposition to the 12th & 13th teams being advanced.

Hurling operates a closed shop in a different way. Having 12 teams in Division 1 with only team promoted/relegated doesn't do a lot to help the lower tiers. Surely 7 games against the teams at the 2nd half of the top tier would be a lot more beneficial than a one off game against a top 6 team?"
There's a difference in that Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher cup level teams realistically wouldn't compete with Liam McCarthy level teams, a game between them is no good to anybody.

In football Derry won Div 3 this year and they'd fancy a cut against nearly all Div 1 and 2 teams their very good Ulster championship game against Donegal a good example, next year Cavan and Tipp are in Div 4 almost the football equivalent of those lower tier hurling competitions, if their confidence was up they'd have no fear of the Div 2 teams along with Kildare, Armagh and Monaghan in Div 1.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 14:52:25    2387605

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Replying To brianb:  "I agree with a lot of that. Proposal B was "tiered" but not actually tiered.

I'm not sure what supporters of Proposal B actually want though. That they prefer Proposal B to the current championship is clear but after that its a bit muddy. Many supporters thought it was a stepping stone and needed tweaks - but a stepping stone to where?

I'm also not sure what everyone who was against Proposal B want. They prefer the current championship as a stepping stone to proposal B as a stepping stone but again without much clarity of where we want to go.

I guess you could be for it or against it for a few different reasons.

Proposal B with every team getting a chance through the provincial route rather than division 3 & 4 seems to be the reasonable compromise here. I'd add that we'd also likely want to include the prior year winners of both the Sam Maguire and the Tailteann Cup in the knock out rounds."
The introduction of the hurling round robin was a perfect example of introducing a new format, working out pros and cons as it proceeded and adapting accordingly. After its 1st run in 2018 an obvious issue was some teams playing 3 or 4 weekends in a row against teams who either had a 2 week break on just had back to back weekends, the provincial councils changed the scheduling for 2019 avoid these scenarios.

If there is a mindset of i don't like that aspect of the structure so bin the whole thing then we're on a never ending cycle and stuck with this horrorshow format we have for 2022.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 14:59:06    2387608

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "That does sound like a better option, there needs to be a proper prize for winning the province otherwise the provincial systems will be dead 130 years of history wiped out in 1 foul swoop."
I wouldn't be oppose to Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions if I thought that the GAA would devise a system whereby weaker counties could improve and progress back into the All Ireland championship but I don't blame weaker county for being skeptical of the GAA based upon their previous versions of the Tailteann cup where it is 'better out of sight and out of mind' and let the big boys get on with it.

I am a bit surprised at Kerry and some of the Northern counties like Donegal and Tyrone being so much in favour of the provincial championship when we hear year in year out about how Kerry are under cooked after waltzing their way through the Munster championship when they lose to the Northern team and Northern teams saying that it is like winning an All Ireland to win the Ulster championship and how they are worn out physically and mentally if they lose to Dublin or Kerry who are in easy provinces. It seems that these counties are confused themselves on what they want.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1445 - 27/10/2021 15:33:47    2387614

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Replying To brianb:  "I agree with a lot of that. Proposal B was "tiered" but not actually tiered.

I'm not sure what supporters of Proposal B actually want though. That they prefer Proposal B to the current championship is clear but after that its a bit muddy. Many supporters thought it was a stepping stone and needed tweaks - but a stepping stone to where?

I'm also not sure what everyone who was against Proposal B want. They prefer the current championship as a stepping stone to proposal B as a stepping stone but again without much clarity of where we want to go.

I guess you could be for it or against it for a few different reasons.

Proposal B with every team getting a chance through the provincial route rather than division 3 & 4 seems to be the reasonable compromise here. I'd add that we'd also likely want to include the prior year winners of both the Sam Maguire and the Tailteann Cup in the knock out rounds."
Problem with linking the provincials is that Kerry and Dublin will still have easier routes and won't have to take the League seriously. It seems to me that reverting back to two tiers in the League is the best solution. 4 division of 8 looks nice on paper but that plus the gulf in funding and resources had led to the massive gap we see now.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 27/10/2021 15:41:33    2387616

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What people on here have to remember football is treated as second class citizens to hurling they will bend over backwards to make sure all teams in McCarthy cup gets fair chance and lots games last 2 years straight knockout in football and not a word said in football they bring in new rules every second year no though put into them hurling just say No and that end of it ,, even in my own county Galway every year they being talked up to win all Ireland, and it has started agsin with Henry in charge , they have won 1 senior title in 33 years ,,,,, unless football start standing up for themselves they be walked on as last 2 years proved with straight knockout,,

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 558 - 27/10/2021 15:56:31    2387619

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Replying To wexico15:  "There's a difference in that Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher cup level teams realistically wouldn't compete with Liam McCarthy level teams, a game between them is no good to anybody.

In football Derry won Div 3 this year and they'd fancy a cut against nearly all Div 1 and 2 teams their very good Ulster championship game against Donegal a good example, next year Cavan and Tipp are in Div 4 almost the football equivalent of those lower tier hurling competitions, if their confidence was up they'd have no fear of the Div 2 teams along with Kildare, Armagh and Monaghan in Div 1."
In that case, just bring back 1A/1B, 2A/2B in the league. Top 8 in Division 1 + top 4 in Div 2 advance to All-Ireland. At least those Div 2 sides will get 7 games against tier 1 teams the next season rather than just 1 knockout game and having to fight it out in Div 3.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 27/10/2021 16:03:51    2387622

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "I wouldn't be oppose to Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions if I thought that the GAA would devise a system whereby weaker counties could improve and progress back into the All Ireland championship but I don't blame weaker county for being skeptical of the GAA based upon their previous versions of the Tailteann cup where it is 'better out of sight and out of mind' and let the big boys get on with it.

I am a bit surprised at Kerry and some of the Northern counties like Donegal and Tyrone being so much in favour of the provincial championship when we hear year in year out about how Kerry are under cooked after waltzing their way through the Munster championship when they lose to the Northern team and Northern teams saying that it is like winning an All Ireland to win the Ulster championship and how they are worn out physically and mentally if they lose to Dublin or Kerry who are in easy provinces. It seems that these counties are confused themselves on what they want."
Excellent post, when you consider it looks like 7 of 8 teams in Div 1 were opposed to proposal B is there the possibility of a European Super League type mentality in these counties at board level.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 16:08:11    2387623

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "I wouldn't be oppose to Option B with spots for the Provincial Champions rather than Div 3 & 4 champions if I thought that the GAA would devise a system whereby weaker counties could improve and progress back into the All Ireland championship but I don't blame weaker county for being skeptical of the GAA based upon their previous versions of the Tailteann cup where it is 'better out of sight and out of mind' and let the big boys get on with it.

I am a bit surprised at Kerry and some of the Northern counties like Donegal and Tyrone being so much in favour of the provincial championship when we hear year in year out about how Kerry are under cooked after waltzing their way through the Munster championship when they lose to the Northern team and Northern teams saying that it is like winning an All Ireland to win the Ulster championship and how they are worn out physically and mentally if they lose to Dublin or Kerry who are in easy provinces. It seems that these counties are confused themselves on what they want."
Could provincials and qualifiers at the start of the year and move into a tiered championship afterwards.

4 Provincial champions and then play the qualifiers down to 2 teams rather than 4. To be played in February and March

Those 6 teams are joined by another 6 teams from the previous season's championship, to include the second tier winners.

So tier 1 is a league of 12 teams playing a single round robin with top 4 making it to the semifinals.

Results from the provincials and qualifiers carry over.

Tier 2 takes 10 teams from the previous season's league to include the tier 3 champions.

Tier 3 is the remaining 10 teams.

Again previous fixtures are retained going forward.

Either 4 or 6 teams qualify for the tier 2 and 3 knockout stages.

Every team gets 2 shots at the All Ireland before moving into an appropriate tiered championship for themselves with progression guaranteed for the following season for the winners.

If Tyrone have had a harder Ulster championship and had to beat 2 tier 1 teams and Dublin have beaten none then Tyrone will have 2 wins with 9 fixtures remaining in April, May and June. Dublin will have 11 fixtures remaining. Dublin still have to take Leinster seriously because if they lose to Meath say who then go on to qualify, Dublin will have a loss on the board.

All teams go into the qualifiers with any games against teams in your tier counting towards your league record.

It's to make sure that teams aren't waiting around too long for fixtures. It's also to ensure that say a team in Leinster doesn't lose their place in tier 1 without having a shot at winning it back through an All Ireland based qualifiers.

The qualifiers would be tweaked to be more fair so that Munster and Connacht finalists enter in round 3 of 5 and Ulster and Leinster finalists enter in round 4 of 5, with Ulster and Leinster semifinalists joining in round 3.

It's the best I can do to come up with a league based championship and give teams more games at their own level but also have every team a chance at the All Ireland and have the Provincials linked in a fair manner.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 27/10/2021 16:42:22    2387626

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "In that case, just bring back 1A/1B, 2A/2B in the league. Top 8 in Division 1 + top 4 in Div 2 advance to All-Ireland. At least those Div 2 sides will get 7 games against tier 1 teams the next season rather than just 1 knockout game and having to fight it out in Div 3."
Sounds good, but how would the provincials been incorporated which seems to be a real sticking point to many.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3931 - 27/10/2021 17:00:20    2387628

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