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Replying To wexico15:  "Where did you get that information out of curiosity? Remember the GPA survey only applies to intercounty Gaelic footballers so there members who are hurlers, camogie players and ladies footballers weren't surveyed."
Published on the Irish Times. All GPA members was asked to do the survey and only 30% of the 1,200 GPA members responded to the survey.

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 2588 - 16/10/2021 11:21:05    2385807

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Under this B proposal will all quarter finals be played in neutral venues or Croke Park?"
Quarter finals regardless of format will be played in Croke Park. And for those that don't already know the Super 8s have been binned.

Yondu (UK) - Posts: 450 - 16/10/2021 11:27:09    2385808

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The GPA has come out overwhelming in favour of proposal b.. They are the absolute main stake holders in this..the players.. With out them this is no championship so please GAA deligates vote for what the players WANT.. Simple as that..

RoryGall35 (Donegal) - Posts: 119 - 16/10/2021 11:34:15    2385810

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Those figures are Inflated by the GPA also. Only 288 out of 1200 GPA members replied to that survey."
Well that makes a big difference. I'm sure everyone believed the 80% figure was from the majority 1200 members. Bit of disconnect in GPA when they can't even get 300 of its members to fill out important survey.

Yondu (UK) - Posts: 450 - 16/10/2021 11:34:51    2385811

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Under this B proposal will all quarter finals be played in neutral venues or Croke Park?"
Well I presume Croke park apart from if (highly likely) Dublin are in it. Then that should be moved to another stadium.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17792 - 16/10/2021 11:37:10    2385812

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To me we've got to vote for option B. If we don't we get a championship which year after year has 3/4 of the matches being one sided encounters.

In terms of 2 supposed issues with B...

The team finishing 6th in Division 1 does get a raw deal: but if B is adopted it offers the opportunity to tweak it later for example into a top division with 2 groups of 9. If B is rejected I think we are stuck with the setup that everyone has been saying is broken.

The provincial councils might lose money: I don't think this criticism is correct at all. Option B gives the largest number of competitive meaningful matches and hence the largest crowds and most money to the GAA. The current football county championship where half of the players who train all year are gone after 1 game (or 2 if there is a backdoor) is giving the least matches/money/football that is possible.

Could we have a Hoganstand poll on whether people want A, B, Old System or Old System with Backdoor?

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 748 - 16/10/2021 11:50:14    2385814

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Those figures are Inflated by the GPA also. Only 288 out of 1200 GPA members replied to that survey."
Sneaky stuff, 80% of our members the GPA heads continues to tells the media when the actual figure from its members is 24%.

Don't think the GPA have helped their cause with those penned letters to officials that will attend Congress with the now debunked info on the possible revenue for proposal B. I don't believe the money tactic should be used to influence a vote anyway.

To quote John Prenty "I don't think there needs to be anybody telling them what to do in the media because normally that turns out to be divisive with one side and the other.

The_analyser (Roscommon) - Posts: 2943 - 16/10/2021 11:52:59    2385815

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I think that's a major game-changer all right and it shows exactly why you should always treat unofficial or unscientific polls with suspicion.

The real result is that only 24% of GPA members feel strongly enough in favour of Proposal B to be bothered to fill out a form to say so.

76% don't feel strongly enough one way or the other to give probably no more than five or ten minutes of their time to feed into the process.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 756 - 16/10/2021 12:09:04    2385816

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "
Replying To timmyhogan:  "[quote=timmyhogan:  ".

But brianb, not to be contentious for the sake of it ,you cant have a route in for the provincial champs or else summer NFL1 loses all drama as everyone (bar Kildare perhaps) probably makes it to the KO phase. The 4 provincial champs are already in Div1 - well certainly 3 are, you could see Galway or Ros winning Connacht perhaps.
And that takes much/all of the competition/risk element out of the summer League which presumably was its main selling point.

Actually what is the problem that the new proposals are supposed to solve.
I'm not claiming there aren't issues with the current setup (obviously)but as I asked before how are these solved in either new setup.
Prop B or indeed the Cromwell plan, as the Ulster boy termed it, could both be interesting/fun if ran for a season but the underlying Q remains."
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Basically it seems we just get more competitive games (NFL1) for the elite teams. This is fine in itself if that's what we are after. And more IC games in good weather and more money perhaps .

But if we drill down what do we get ? Let's say for arguments sake that in 22 Kerry, Dublin and Mayo (I know, I know) are gonna make top 5 in NFL1 and Kildare wont. So we have a summer league to see which 2 of Donegal, Tyrone, Monaghan & Armagh don't make the KO phase of the champo.

That sounds interesting in itself. But we already have an Ulster champo to sort this out & its a cracker. Plus the losing teams get a backdoor shot - more good games.
So we are throwing away a 33 county KO Sam & the provincials for this tweak.

Somewhat underwhelming when looked at in this light.
If it wasn't for the anomalies /potential controversy it would have very little to recommend it."
Yes but it would make Kerry and Dublin work to get in the top 5. Instead of cruising through Leinster or Munster, away games in Omagh, Newbridge, Tuam etc would have to be negotiated. Don't forget Kerry failed to qualify from a super 8s group of Monaghan Galway and Kildare . You couldn't relax in Division 1 and it would make it very exciting."].

I don't disagree on that - it would be exciting and while perhaps in a minority the potential anomalies & shenanigans in the final 2 NFL1 rounds would appeal to me. Thats pure GAA.

If the point is to give Kerry & Dublin more meaningful matches then it certainly works - although until recently the Dubs dominance/financial advantage was the biggest issue in the GAA? No?

& For all the excitement it would generate I'm pretty sure you could today predict the 8 qtr finalists in next year's Prop B champo and get at least 6 right. No?

Is it worth it - well that's a matter of choice. But let's dispense with the idea it somehow helps weaker teams or redresses the balance in Leinster - or Munster for that matter. On the contrary, the gap would probably widen.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 16/10/2021 12:26:15    2385818

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Replying To wexico15:  "Where did you get that information out of curiosity? Remember the GPA survey only applies to intercounty Gaelic footballers so there members who are hurlers, camogie players and ladies footballers weren't surveyed."
By the way, thought at first that this might be a fair point, but this is from The Irish Times story:

According to Parsons, 80 per cent of those who replied to a GPA survey (about 30 per cent of the 1,200 footballing membership) and 90 per cent of the county reps who had spoken to their panels were in favour of Option B.

Note how it clarifies that only 30% of its footballing membership replied to the survey.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 756 - 16/10/2021 12:27:29    2385819

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Under this B proposal will all quarter finals be played in neutral venues or Croke Park?"
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That's easily answered. If Kerry were playing Tyrone it would be in Croker.
If Kerry were playing Dublin it would be in a neutral venue (Croker)

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 16/10/2021 12:45:00    2385820

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Well I presume Croke park apart from if (highly likely) Dublin are in it. Then that should be moved to another stadium."
I agree with you royaldunne, dublins quarter final needs to be outside crokepark but this should all be nailed down before hand, coz it won't get done after it passes.

Also how the money is to be dispersed needs to be locked down before hand.

You don't accept a job and then negotiate the wages. You negotiate the wages then accept the job.

I hope the provincial councils know what they're doing.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13774 - 16/10/2021 13:02:18    2385822

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People talk about dead rubber games in Super 8s, if only top 6 qualify out of a Division 1 you'll see the same. You could be safe after 3 or 4 games and then choose who you want to try against. Add in the fact you could be lucky with the draw and get your toughest games at home. Back to qualifiers for me. That way everybody get their chance.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 988 - 16/10/2021 13:53:40    2385826

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Replying To brianb:  "Its not an easy option - but would you sooner be in the All Ireland 1/4 final or 6th in Division 1 and no knock out games?

There seems to be 2 main schools of though in this thread. Pass Option B and tweak it down the line - or explore the obvious short-comings and come back with a better thought out proposal.

From what I hear nobody is advocating that either the current championship or Option B should be the structure in 2025 - so the main question is: Is Option B or the current championship a better stepping stone to get there?

We'd be giving up a lot to trial Option B - I believe the status quo with all its unfairness is still fairer and more logical; so for me - no thanks; back to the drawing board and bring through a fairer and more equitable championship for 2023/24."
I agree - back to the drawing board - I'd rather do it right, or not at all.

The 'two schools of thought' reminds me of Michael Collins contemplation on signing the Treaty with the British. We signed up to something less than desired, thought we could bring the North in later and here we are.

When I consider your question - better to be in the KO from a low div, or no KO from a low placing in Div 1 - I think the footballers would say give me the KO - the hurlers might prefer to be 4th in the Munster group.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 16/10/2021 14:14:47    2385827

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Under Proposal A and C, the only metrics that you can use to measure success is winning a provincial title or All Ireland. At least under Proposal B, counties have clear ambitions ( top 5 in division 1, avoid relegation, gain promotion etc ) .

Rebel2020 (Cork) - Posts: 55 - 16/10/2021 15:23:22    2385830

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Something funny about proposal B is that it's possible (unlikely but possible) to finish 6th in division 1 with 9 points and 3rd in division 2 with just 5 points."
That's one reason why 2 groups of 8 might work better - the best 8 advancing (top 4 in each, 6th-8th goes through, 9th-11th goes home).
For greater incentive, I'd also like giving the top 4 (top 2 in each group) a 2nd chance and the other 4 a KO - similar to Liam McCarthy Cup (2 Prov Finals with back door guarantee to AI QFs, 2 KO Qualifiers for 2QF berths).

Re: League-Championship - what's the best solution then ? I pitch the following:

Two NFL Divs (1&2), each with 2 groups (A&B) of 8.
7 league games per team.
Top 4 in groups 1A & 1B to Tier 1 (Sam) Playoffs.
Crossover 1v2 (Liam McC double chance, win to AI SFs, lose to KO QFs); crossover 3v4 KO (win to QFs).

Top 4 in groups 2A & 2B to Tier 2 (Paudi) Playoffs, but are merged with the bottom 4 in groups 1A & 1B as well (Tier 2 is a Mid-16 competition).

Crossover 5v2 & 6v1 (4 winners to T2 QFs, 4 losers to Last 12 Playoff Rd); 7v4 & 8v3 KO (4 winners to Last 12).
Tier 2 QF 8 stay or go up to Div 1 the following year.
If interested the bottom 4 in groups 2A& 2B could play for a stand-alone Tier 3 Shield.

Keep the Provs as well - Champs go to Tier 1 Playoffs if not qualified from league.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 16/10/2021 16:05:16    2385836

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Replying To Rebel2020:  "Under Proposal A and C, the only metrics that you can use to measure success is winning a provincial title or All Ireland. At least under Proposal B, counties have clear ambitions ( top 5 in division 1, avoid relegation, gain promotion etc ) ."
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So under Prob B teams can gain promotion/ avoid relegation and 5 of them in Div 1 make it into the champo. Something every team in to the country has been able to do that for well over a century.
That's me convinced - where do I sign ;-)

Seriously that's a worse argument than Calling Div 3 and 4 League games "championship games".
That at least was kinda funny!

Jaysis, Rebel.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 237 - 16/10/2021 16:41:36    2385840

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Replying To tyroneed:  "To me we've got to vote for option B. If we don't we get a championship which year after year has 3/4 of the matches being one sided encounters.

In terms of 2 supposed issues with B...

The team finishing 6th in Division 1 does get a raw deal: but if B is adopted it offers the opportunity to tweak it later for example into a top division with 2 groups of 9. If B is rejected I think we are stuck with the setup that everyone has been saying is broken.

The provincial councils might lose money: I don't think this criticism is correct at all. Option B gives the largest number of competitive meaningful matches and hence the largest crowds and most money to the GAA. The current football county championship where half of the players who train all year are gone after 1 game (or 2 if there is a backdoor) is giving the least matches/money/football that is possible.

Could we have a Hoganstand poll on whether people want A, B, Old System or Old System with Backdoor?"
We're not stuck with the status quo of Option B is rejected. We are being asked to take the provincial championships out of the championship and to play them as pre season competitions. We are also being asked to bin the National League. Everyone agrees that the league is a great competition why bin it? Option B is a hybrid competition which will see half of the top 16 teams left without knockout championship football while all of the 16 teams below them will have knockout football either in the Sam Maguire or in the Tailteann Cup. The details of Option B haven't finalised yet because the details of the Tailteann Cup haven't been decidedypon. We are left with a hybrid competition where winning the leagues in the top two divisions will not be the primary motivation. Getting to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguire will be the primary option. Compare this mongrel competition to the structures in hurling. Every county in hurling takes part in the National League. This is then followed by five tiered competitions which are played off on a league basis with finals. The Liam McCarthy retained the provincial championships as a core element of the championship. What is available to the hurlers will be vastly superior to what will be available to footballers should Option B be passed. We are not stuck with the status quo if Option B is binned. We need to go back to the drawing board and come back with viable, equitable options. Option B is neither viable or equitable. It is a very poor option.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5691 - 16/10/2021 16:45:03    2385841

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Replying To Gaa_lover:  "Published on the Irish Times. All GPA members was asked to do the survey and only 30% of the 1,200 GPA members responded to the survey."
So that 80% we see being peddled is actually 24% (80% x 30%) for B and 6% (20% x 30%) - basically, most players haven't read it, or care enough about it, even though their playing lives will be affected.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 16/10/2021 16:58:36    2385843

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Replying To tyroneed:  "To me we've got to vote for option B. If we don't we get a championship which year after year has 3/4 of the matches being one sided encounters.

In terms of 2 supposed issues with B...

The team finishing 6th in Division 1 does get a raw deal: but if B is adopted it offers the opportunity to tweak it later for example into a top division with 2 groups of 9. If B is rejected I think we are stuck with the setup that everyone has been saying is broken.

The provincial councils might lose money: I don't think this criticism is correct at all. Option B gives the largest number of competitive meaningful matches and hence the largest crowds and most money to the GAA. The current football county championship where half of the players who train all year are gone after 1 game (or 2 if there is a backdoor) is giving the least matches/money/football that is possible.

Could we have a Hoganstand poll on whether people want A, B, Old System or Old System with Backdoor?"
Until we do it right - "Old System with 8-team Qualifiers" (8 highest NFL ranked of 24 non- Prov Finalists) - Other 16 of 24 straight to Tailteann Cup.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 16/10/2021 17:06:27    2385844

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