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Replying To breakin_ball:  "I don't think most posters are understanding how unstructured the current system is and how little scope for improvement there is for lower level teams. Kerry and Dublin will play championship until august.

Most county teams will be back playing club by July - with no matches or collective training in the summer months - how would any team improve with so few games? There is massive investment in teams these days and 1-2 days out per year aren't going to make the effort worthwhile. It's only 2 years since Derry were considering pulling out of senior football as they couldn't fund it at a serious level.

There's serious interest in football and serious effort goes into it but the competitions and matches available don't match up.

The tailteann cup is going to happen anyway and the link breakage to the provincial championship happened with the qualifiers.

Proposal B- Firstly the championship is all over in mid July next year. For 3 teams in Div 1, 5 in Div 2 and 7 in Div 3,4 the season is over in May.


Under status quo

You can start the season with FBD, McKenna games (that's basically what they want to do with the provincial championships in proposal B)

Then 7 NFL games maybe 8 if you reach a final and at least two championship games one provincial and 1 qualifer.

So let's take your own Cavan.

Status quo,

group format McKenna cup 3 or games 4, NFL games 7 or 8 and two championship matches that's a total of 14 matches.

Proposal B, straight into a group format of the provincial championship 4 games, league/championship 7 maybe 8 games which gives a total 12 matches

Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 2588 - 12/10/2021 16:37:10    2385407

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Replying To Ban:  "Top teams get most exposure in every sport on the planet. You want exposure, improve yourself. How do you do that, play at your level, master it, go onto the next level, master that and so on.."
At last a bit of sense. Some proposals want to eliminate lower Div 1 teams to get top Div 4 teams in. Doesn't make sense. As you say play your level and move on up.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 997 - 12/10/2021 16:41:32    2385409

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Most likely scenario now is a league within the provincial championships.

Ulster and Leinster with two groups and Connacht, Munster with one group.

So we are getting change!

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3879 - 12/10/2021 16:56:12    2385410

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Replying To Ban:  "Top teams get most exposure in every sport on the planet. You want exposure, improve yourself. How do you do that, play at your level, master it, go onto the next level, master that and so on.."
I agree with most of that statement - the top teams will get the most exposure. That's always the way.

But proposal B doesn't address the second point. Play at your level, master it, go on to the next level. There is a gaping hole in the system between the Sam Maguire and Taitleann cup where teams generally raked 9 - 16 will sit.

Parachuting the 17th & 25th ranked teams into the latter stages also does not fit with the play at your level, master it.

I believe the answer is a properly tiered system. If a county is in a lower tier final with promotion at stake; it gets a tremendous amount of exposure inside the county whatever about outside it. I think it would be faired to give every team a chance to get into the Sam Maguire cup by winning their province or battling for promotion rather than by winning Division 4.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 116 - 12/10/2021 17:03:43    2385411

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Replying To Ban:  "Top teams get most exposure in every sport on the planet. You want exposure, improve yourself. How do you do that, play at your level, master it, go onto the next level, master that and so on.."
My problem with the just get change over the line is that we end up with another bad system and it takes 20 years to fix it properly as it needs to be given a chance. Or that it's a disaster and they have to go back to the old system and are frightened to change again.

Proposal B could actually be a disaster.

You'd hope not but the Provincials could end up performing like the current pre season competitions with next to no interest in them.

The league/championship competition might not be able to generate significantly better crowds than the same fixtures get in the league.

It's not without risk and I think the way the "championship" just looks like the league followed by a restricted knockout championship could cause the whole system damage.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 12/10/2021 17:35:45    2385413

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Replying To brianb:  "Change might be worth trying? Certainly but not change for the sake of change. I believe neither proposal are better than the status quo.

The biggest drawback in the current state is the mismatches that can occur. Proposal B will reduce these but at the expense of a competitive championship for all. The top teams get higher profile games and more exposure inside and outside their counties - everyone else gets less."
I think if the pre-2018 AIC comes back, it will have changes - I think the weaker 16 of 24 non-Prov Final teams play in the Tailteann Cup, with only the stronger 8 going to the 1st of 2 Qual Rds - I think - is this right ? If so, hopefully heavy Qual beatings should be less frequent.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 12/10/2021 18:36:22    2385420

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah look I hear you.

I think they should just have 2 championships both with 2 sections of 8 leading to 4, 6 or 8 team playoffs and then promotion and relegation between tiers.

If this was the tweak you'd have a good program of games for all teams and a fair method for teams reaching the AI playoffs.

I hate that lower level teams get a route back in, it's not equitable."
What do you think of having all (say, 8) lowest placed Div 1 teams merging with top Div 2 teams in a stronger Mid-16 Tier 2 Championship and battling to get or stay in Div 1 to be Tier 1 AIC eligible the following year ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 12/10/2021 19:13:37    2385425

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Changes are needed but Option B isn't it. It replaces an unfair championship structure with another unfair championship structure

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5695 - 12/10/2021 21:47:18    2385432

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Changes are needed but Option B isn't it. It replaces an unfair championship structure with another unfair championship structure"
What's your alternative? The pre covid championship structure was/is a broken structure and maintaining this will do alot of harm in my opinion. Option B might not be perfect but its surely worth a tiral.

Remember it took a global pandemic for a split season to be trialled and maintained, hopefully something as extreme isn't required to bring about change to the football championship structures.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 13/10/2021 10:05:50    2385443

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Replying To Saynothing:  "At last a bit of sense. Some proposals want to eliminate lower Div 1 teams to get top Div 4 teams in. Doesn't make sense. As you say play your level and move on up."
I don't think too many like division 3 or 4 teams qualifying at the expense of teams in stronger divisions.

If Antrim are to ever play in the latter stages of the championship I'd have wanted them to have properly earned it by beating good teams to get there.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 13/10/2021 10:17:41    2385445

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Changes are needed but Option B isn't it. It replaces an unfair championship structure with another unfair championship structure"
100% greengrass option B is just lacking something, imagine if they went to the hurling counties with this proposal where they'd be told to go.

Galway Cork limerick Waterford Tipp from div 1 offaly from div2 kildare from div 3 Sligo and louth to play off in div 3/4 to make the allireland through their league positions.

Clare Kilkenny Wexford Well sorry lads ye finished outside the top 5 so better luck next year.

Your hurling quarter finals could be :

Limerick v winner of Sligo/Louth
Tipp v Offaly
Cork v Waterford
Galway v kildare

Would the hurling counties agree to that?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13796 - 13/10/2021 10:19:08    2385447

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "100% greengrass option B is just lacking something, imagine if they went to the hurling counties with this proposal where they'd be told to go.

Galway Cork limerick Waterford Tipp from div 1 offaly from div2 kildare from div 3 Sligo and louth to play off in div 3/4 to make the allireland through their league positions.

Clare Kilkenny Wexford Well sorry lads ye finished outside the top 5 so better luck next year.

Your hurling quarter finals could be :

Limerick v winner of Sligo/Louth
Tipp v Offaly
Cork v Waterford
Galway v kildare

Would the hurling counties agree to that?"
But its not like for like, hurling has tiered a well established tiered championship.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 13/10/2021 10:40:53    2385458

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "100% greengrass option B is just lacking something, imagine if they went to the hurling counties with this proposal where they'd be told to go.

Galway Cork limerick Waterford Tipp from div 1 offaly from div2 kildare from div 3 Sligo and louth to play off in div 3/4 to make the allireland through their league positions.

Clare Kilkenny Wexford Well sorry lads ye finished outside the top 5 so better luck next year.

Your hurling quarter finals could be :

Limerick v winner of Sligo/Louth
Tipp v Offaly
Cork v Waterford
Galway v kildare

Would the hurling counties agree to that?"
The hurling counties have already agreed to an equivalent of that with the Joe McDonagh finalists (who would be ranked 12 and 13) going into preliminary quarter finals whereas teams ranked 7 to 11 are eliminated (i.e. the three teams in Munster and the four teams in Leinster that don't qualify from the provincial groups).

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 57 - 13/10/2021 10:51:31    2385460

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The argument of teams not finishing in the Top 5 of division 1 not getting a chance at the all-ireland makes no sense to me.

The league structure is your chance, if you have lost all of your games bar one and get into say 6th place in division 1, realistically you aren't challenging for anything this year and a team with some momentum behind them like a division 2 or 3 winner has a better chance than you.

Your chance was the league based games you had and you didn't take them so yeah, it is better luck next year.

Highandmighty (Leitrim) - Posts: 49 - 13/10/2021 11:23:41    2385465

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Replying To wexico15:  "What's your alternative? The pre covid championship structure was/is a broken structure and maintaining this will do alot of harm in my opinion. Option B might not be perfect but its surely worth a tiral.

Remember it took a global pandemic for a split season to be trialled and maintained, hopefully something as extreme isn't required to bring about change to the football championship structures."
I mean there must be about 20 structures in this thread that are better than proposal B.

If it wasn't so annoying it'd be funny how bad a job the fixtures committee did of coming up with an alternative.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 13/10/2021 11:24:14    2385466

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "100% greengrass option B is just lacking something, imagine if they went to the hurling counties with this proposal where they'd be told to go.

Galway Cork limerick Waterford Tipp from div 1 offaly from div2 kildare from div 3 Sligo and louth to play off in div 3/4 to make the allireland through their league positions.

Clare Kilkenny Wexford Well sorry lads ye finished outside the top 5 so better luck next year.

Your hurling quarter finals could be :

Limerick v winner of Sligo/Louth
Tipp v Offaly
Cork v Waterford
Galway v kildare

Would the hurling counties agree to that?"
That's in place already Kingdom boy. In the last version of the hurling championship pre covid Laois got further than Clare,Waterford by virtue of beating lower placed teams.

Nobody's complained. Not Clare. Not Waterford. They accepted they lost so many games they didn't deserve to go further.

Actually, the Laois and Dublin game was considered a great success of the championship. Laois beat Westmeath, Carlow, Meath, Kerry etc prior to that game while Dublin played KK, Galway,Wexford etc. Nobody complained when Laois won. Why is it unfair then? Unfair on who?

If Kerry lose 4/5 games and finish 6th, what reward do you think they deserve?

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3879 - 13/10/2021 11:34:19    2385470

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I mean there must be about 20 structures in this thread that are better than proposal B.

If it wasn't so annoying it'd be funny how bad a job the fixtures committee did of coming up with an alternative."
Well give your alternative then? I'm all ears....

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3846 - 13/10/2021 12:19:21    2385481

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Replying To Highandmighty:  "The argument of teams not finishing in the Top 5 of division 1 not getting a chance at the all-ireland makes no sense to me.

The league structure is your chance, if you have lost all of your games bar one and get into say 6th place in division 1, realistically you aren't challenging for anything this year and a team with some momentum behind them like a division 2 or 3 winner has a better chance than you.

Your chance was the league based games you had and you didn't take them so yeah, it is better luck next year."
This one really is a never-ending circle.

I'd agree that if you've lost most of your matches in Div. 1, then you're unlikely to be able to turn things round so much to give yourself a real chance of success at the end of the year. Therefore tough luck, you've had your chance, and better luck next year.

But if the basis for whether or not a team should even be in the knock-out stages is their perceived chances of winning the competition, then the winner of Div. 4, for example, shouldn't be in either.

Look at the final league tables for 2020 (the last year that an "ordinary" league was played). Mayo wouldn't have qualified for the knock-out stages. Limerick would have.

Leave aside any smart remarks about Mayo, and give an honest answer to the question: which of them would be more likely to win an All-Ireland?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 762 - 13/10/2021 12:22:17    2385482

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Off The Ball have been giving this topic a fair bit of air time - they can see how important it is.. While they have come out in full favour of option B, they have also been actively trying to get people on the show to debate why option B is not the right way to go. Interestingly, only one person has agreed to take part from that side of the argument so far - Ulster CEO..

This morning - Offaly Chairman Michael Duignan aired his views on the matter.

Michael Duignan | 'Everyone at Offaly is 100% supportive of Plan B' | GAA restructure debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcA9DgY_xTs

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1217 - 13/10/2021 12:33:38    2385487

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Replying To bennybunny:  "That's in place already Kingdom boy. In the last version of the hurling championship pre covid Laois got further than Clare,Waterford by virtue of beating lower placed teams.

Nobody's complained. Not Clare. Not Waterford. They accepted they lost so many games they didn't deserve to go further.

Actually, the Laois and Dublin game was considered a great success of the championship. Laois beat Westmeath, Carlow, Meath, Kerry etc prior to that game while Dublin played KK, Galway,Wexford etc. Nobody complained when Laois won. Why is it unfair then? Unfair on who?

If Kerry lose 4/5 games and finish 6th, what reward do you think they deserve?"
Hurling also doesn't allow Kerry into the Munster championship or Kildare into the Leinster championship. They need to earn that promotion.

That championship structure is more akin to allowing the top 2 teams from Division 2 into the All Ireland series at the expense of the bottom Division 1 teams. It doesn't try an parachute in the Christy Ring and Lory Meagher winners as well.

I feel if we're going to remove the meaning from the the provincial championships and join the league and All Ireland together we could do a much better job.

Even better still use the good idea part (seeding based on the league) with the existing chance for everybody (via the provinces) for a more vibrant and equitable championship. Doing this would keep the prestige of the provincial champion; keep the meaningful promotion and relegation of the league and add to the All Ireland.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 116 - 13/10/2021 12:43:22    2385488

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