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If you finished 7th and 8th in division 1 after 7 league/championship games which were preceeded by a minimum of 4 games in a round robin competition to determine a provincial winner can teams really complain about their year been over at that point. Think you've a good point on teams finishing 6th, looking at the structure in our own club championship maybe a structure could work where top 4 in div 1 automatically qualify for all ireland quarter finals and then have 4 preliminary quarter finals to determine the other 4 spots which could be structured in 1 of 2 ways. Option 1 5th Div 1 v 4th Div 2 6th Div 1 v 3rd Div 2 1st Div 3 v 2nd Div 2 1st Div 4 v 1st Div 2 Option 2 5th Div 1 v 1st Div 4 6th Div 1 v 1st Div 3 Both these at neutral venues 1st Div 2 v 4th Div 2 2nd Div 2 v 3th Div 2 Home advantage for 1st and 2nd placed teams bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 17:57:39 2385564 Link 0 |
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In that case teams would intentionally get relegated to Joe Mcdonagh Cup in hurling as they might see it as a safer avenue to last 8 of Liam McCarthy Cup, do you really think that would happen?
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 17:59:56 2385565 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed."]. It was obvious 10 minutes after the proposal was mooted if you thought about it. Now that the issues have been aired how do you fix it??"]. I will answer my own Q - obviously have 3 teams relegated from Div 1. Simple. However thats not the proposal on the Table and wouldn't solve the issue of relegation to Div 3 & 4 being an advantage for teams."]Do you seriously think teams would intentionally get relegated? That's the equivalent of a club team in Senior with no realistic chance of winning the grade and deciding let's get relegated lads and give Intermediate a good rattle, I don't know about other counties but that's unheard of in Wexford in club hurling or football. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 18:03:25 2385567 Link 0 |
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Teams that finish higher in the league are eliminated from the championship entirely whilst teams that m finish lower in the league are progress to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguirechampionship. All of the teams in Division Three and Division Four are guaranteed knockout championship games in either the Sam Maguire or the Tailteann Cup whilst eight teams in Division One and Two will see their seasons end at the conclusion of the league. How is that fair? Relegation from Division One to Division Two will give some teams a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire championship the following season. Put simply Option B isn't good enough. There are too many anomalies and it doesn't resolve the issue of a lack of fairness."]Just because games would be the league phase doesn't mean they're not important or dont have a championship feel and there would be 7 of these games, I'll just give a hypothetical scenario if option B won the vote( don't think it will BTW but hope I'm wrong) Week 1 of the league/championship in div 1 Monaghan v Kerry- Clones Mayo v Dublin- Castlebar Kildare v Tyrone- Newbridge Donegal v Armagh- Ballybofey There's 4 games with proper championship feel with plenty at stake, I'd say sell outs in Castlebar and Newbridge, close to it on Ballybofey, Monaghan Kerry in the super 8s in 2018 in Clones drew 17k which is huge considering Monaghan has a population of 50k i think. Your avoiding the point that every team is guaranteed minimum 7 games under option B during championship months, with status quo this is 2 maybe 3 depending on how tailteann cup is integrated. Your talking about fairness but 7 games to qualify to the section you aspire to is fairness in my eyes. They're could be issues with option B but why persist with the broken system we have."]League is league wexico and always will be. You can dress it up whatever way you like but the league stage of the championship will be the preliminary stage in all but name. The real championship starts with knockout and only ten teams will be taking part with half of the top 16 teams gone. The league is already a cracking competition. The system we have is not as broken as you make out. I was in Clones for the Monaghan Kerry Super 8s game. I was also in Clones for an Ulster semi final in 2014 between Tyrone and Monaghan. They were both great days but they didn't compare to any of the Ulster Finals I attended in Clones. I'm not prepared to see that dispensed within favour of the deeply flawed structure that is Option B. Go back to the drawing board and come back with a real proposal ."]Your "league is league" argument is extremely weak and also flawed in my opinion. If option B was introduced and in rounds 6 or 7 of the league/championship phase and you have Donegal v Monaghan for example where the winner is in the shake up for qualification to the next phase and the loser is in relegation jeopardy, is that "league is league" game? A system like this has already been road tested successfully in the round robin provincial championships in hurling in 2018/19 which are due to return next year, I was at every Wexford round robin game bar 1 in the 2 years and a Kilkenny Galway game in Nowlan Park and none certainly had a "league is league" feel. I was at a Wexford Kilkenny game in Wexford Park in the final round robin game in 2019 everything on the line, 18k capacity crowd the place was electric. I agree the league is a cracking competition but playing this in Apr, May, June compared to Feb and March and incorporating this to the championship I believe would make it even better. How is a system where Dublin have won 16 of 17 Leinsters not broken? Where Mayo beat Sligo and Leitrim by 20 and 24 points this year not broken? Where Connacht is at the moment essentially a 3 team championship( Hopefully Sligo can build on winning Connacht u17 this year). Tipperary winning Munster last year was absolutely fantastic but been realistic they got a reality check from Mayo in the semi final and the facts are Munster is another broken championship when you consider Kerry have won 8 of the last 9 and between them Clare, Tipperary, Limerick and Waterford have 2 Munsters since 1936. The Ulster championship is the 1 true vibrant provincial championship but as I heard it described recently its a bit like the 1 busy shop in an otherwise quiet shopping centre. I've never been to an Ulster final but I'm sure it's a great day but how many more soulless Leinster and Munster finals do we have to suffer before progress to a format the players want like option B is found. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 18:31:43 2385571 Link 0 |
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Also on this the fact that in hurling round robin 4th in Munster and Leinster didn't make the last 8 of Liam McCarthy in 2018-19 while Joe McDonagh finalists do was never seen as a talking point to the best of my memory. In 2018 Tipp finished 4th in Munster but even if they scrapped in 3rd would have been a serious all ireland contender.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 18:35:57 2385572 Link 0 |
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Teams that finish higher in the league are eliminated from the championship entirely whilst teams that m finish lower in the league are progress to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguirechampionship. All of the teams in Division Three and Division Four are guaranteed knockout championship games in either the Sam Maguire or the Tailteann Cup whilst eight teams in Division One and Two will see their seasons end at the conclusion of the league. How is that fair? Relegation from Division One to Division Two will give some teams a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire championship the following season. Put simply Option B isn't good enough. There are too many anomalies and it doesn't resolve the issue of a lack of fairness."]Just because games would be the league phase doesn't mean they're not important or dont have a championship feel and there would be 7 of these games, I'll just give a hypothetical scenario if option B won the vote( don't think it will BTW but hope I'm wrong) Week 1 of the league/championship in div 1 Monaghan v Kerry- Clones Mayo v Dublin- Castlebar Kildare v Tyrone- Newbridge Donegal v Armagh- Ballybofey There's 4 games with proper championship feel with plenty at stake, I'd say sell outs in Castlebar and Newbridge, close to it on Ballybofey, Monaghan Kerry in the super 8s in 2018 in Clones drew 17k which is huge considering Monaghan has a population of 50k i think. Your avoiding the point that every team is guaranteed minimum 7 games under option B during championship months, with status quo this is 2 maybe 3 depending on how tailteann cup is integrated. Your talking about fairness but 7 games to qualify to the section you aspire to is fairness in my eyes. They're could be issues with option B but why persist with the broken system we have."]League is league wexico and always will be. You can dress it up whatever way you like but the league stage of the championship will be the preliminary stage in all but name. The real championship starts with knockout and only ten teams will be taking part with half of the top 16 teams gone. The league is already a cracking competition. The system we have is not as broken as you make out. I was in Clones for the Monaghan Kerry Super 8s game. I was also in Clones for an Ulster semi final in 2014 between Tyrone and Monaghan. They were both great days but they didn't compare to any of the Ulster Finals I attended in Clones. I'm not prepared to see that dispensed within favour of the deeply flawed structure that is Option B. Go back to the drawing board and come back with a real proposal ."]Apologies probably driving everyone demented but I'll make 1 final point. If you spoke to the 32 intercounty managers ( leave out Kilkenny for London) at the start of every season for the last 3-5 years and asked them for their objectives regards league, possible promotion and outright winners for div 1 teams, then their championship objectives regards winning a province or Sam Maguire. I'd guess every manager in Munster and Leinster outside of Dublin and Kerry, minimum 3 of 6 in Connacht championship would see league as more important than championship, Ulster is debatable but I'd say 2 definitely maybe even 3 or 4 would see league as more important, that's at the very least 20 teams viewing league as more important than championship and to be that's the definition of a broken system. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 19:15:46 2385575 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed."]. It was obvious 10 minutes after the proposal was mooted if you thought about it. Now that the issues have been aired how do you fix it??"]. I will answer my own Q - obviously have 3 teams relegated from Div 1. Simple. However thats not the proposal on the Table and wouldn't solve the issue of relegation to Div 3 & 4 being an advantage for teams."]Do you seriously think teams would intentionally get relegated? That's the equivalent of a club team in Senior with no realistic chance of winning the grade and deciding let's get relegated lads and give Intermediate a good rattle, I don't know about other counties but that's unheard of in Wexford in club hurling or football."]Do you seriously think teams would intentionally get relegated? No - but they might be at an advantage if they are. But its the equivalent of a team being relegated from Senior / Intermediate and being given a 1/4 final chance at the senior championship because they are now the best Intermediate / Junior team. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 14/10/2021 10:36:02 2385603 Link 0 |
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That's true, Cavan won Ulster last year and beat some very good team in doing so, Derry could have a serious team now that glass and Anton Tohill are back, Calum browne could make a return from Oz as well so I see where you're coming from. When you think of it the Ulster championship is the jewel in the gaa's football crown, it would be a shame to religate it to a warm up competition. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/10/2021 11:09:28 2385607 Link 0 |
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Am just going to say that the way the "reply to post" function sometimes works here is making things very difficult to follow.... Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2247 - 14/10/2021 11:29:10 2385613 Link 0 |
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I've already said I don't think the hurling comparisons are useful for football.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 14/10/2021 11:30:29 2385614 Link 0 |
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Or just not useful when they don't enhance your viewpoint....
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 11:46:48 2385617 Link 1 |
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Have to agree although I'm probably the worst culprit.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 11:47:16 2385618 Link 1 |
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As I said previously Ulster is a bit like the 1 booming shop in an otherwise quite shopping centre. The other 3 provinces have been won 8 times out of 9 and 16 out of 17 by 1 team while Connacht is currently a 3 team championship with Sligo, Leitrim, London and New York a few levels below mayo, galway and roscommon.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 11:51:13 2385619 Link 0 |
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They're exceptions, Derry are certainly one, up and coming team that have finally got their act together and with those players returning will likely hold their own in Div 1 in a few years. Cavan on the other hand could and probably will win Div 4 next year but will they fare any better in All-Ireland quarter final than this did in the All Ireland semi final in 2020, at least then they had a Provincial title to look back on just a pity no supporters was in attendance to witness it. Meanwhile winning a pre season Ulster league played in February is a devalued as it gets Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3347 - 14/10/2021 11:54:06 2385620 Link 0 |
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It is actually a similar situation when you think about it - get into the knock out games in Hurling by finishing in the top 2 of Antrim, Kerry, Down, Carlow, Meath & Offaly or the top 3 of Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway, Dublin, Westmeath & Laois. Lets see how this goes in the next few years. Could a resurgent Offaly team backed by Shane Lowry qualify for the Joe McDonagh final but lose by "resting" players in the final in order to peak for the final stages games - and go on to get to an All Ireland final? They could then follow a similar route year after year. I don't think so. The difference is that they get promoted to the Leinster Championship which still has the standing of a provincial championship and feeds the All Ireland series. This is not on the table under Option B. Don't get me wrong - teams can't just choose where they finish - it doesn't work like that. But given that under Option B there is no league anymore and its all championship - outside the top teams the best place to finish seems to be 3rd in Division 2. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 14/10/2021 12:04:02 2385622 Link 0 |
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. Yea there's that also - 3rd in div 2 is the place to be. We could get a situation where say Roscommon are good enough to maintain that position and every year get a qtr final spot and stink out the competition while 3 of the best teams in the country look on. Maybe it is the way to go! timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 12:17:50 2385623 Link 0 |
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Ya that's true, that's why I suggested leaving Ulster as is and amalgamating the other 3 provinces with Cork Kerry Clare from Munster Galway Roscommon and Mayo from Connacht and Kildare dublin and Meath from leinster, that would make 2 very competitive groups north and south with religation and promotion from the southern group.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/10/2021 12:25:22 2385627 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed."]. It was obvious 10 minutes after the proposal was mooted if you thought about it. Now that the issues have been aired how do you fix it??"]. I will answer my own Q - obviously have 3 teams relegated from Div 1. Simple. However thats not the proposal on the Table and wouldn't solve the issue of relegation to Div 3 & 4 being an advantage for teams."]Do you seriously think teams would intentionally get relegated? That's the equivalent of a club team in Senior with no realistic chance of winning the grade and deciding let's get relegated lads and give Intermediate a good rattle, I don't know about other counties but that's unheard of in Wexford in club hurling or football."]The GAA want very competitive leagues/championships and allowing only 5 teams to qualify from the championship from Division 1 will make for a very competitive high pressured competition, all good for marketing and crowds. However the major flaw is the actual "knockout" championship will replace two of three Division 1 teams with one from Division 3 and Division 4, it is difficult to see how that would be in the competitions interest when the plan is to have teams playing competitive games at their own level. My theory is option A will be rejected as will option B but B will get within a percentage or two of passing the required 60%. Discussions will take place about how the three Division 1 teams (6th to 8th) or at least some of them are given an opportunity to get into the senior championship be that play offs etc; a solution will be found that makes small changes to option B and congress will then be called again. sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 14/10/2021 12:26:57 2385628 Link 0 |
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Or worse - do well and get to an All Ireland. timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 14/10/2021 12:29:46 2385629 Link 0 |
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If you qualify for the knockout stage via Div 2,3,4 I'd imagine it's all seeded and you'll face a team who probably finished in the top 3 or 4 of div 1 in the All Ireland quarter final if teams make it that far, realistically facing 1 of Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal so hardly the best or easy option.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 14/10/2021 12:32:26 2385630 Link 0 |