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So you advocate replacing an unfair championship structure with another unfair championship structure. That can't be right. It's time to go back to the drawing board and come up with a viable, balanced alternative. Option B is a very poor offering.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 13/10/2021 12:56:49 2385490 Link 0 |
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It might not be perfect but div 1 teams have 7 games to qualify for the knockout phase 3 or 4 of these on their home ground, every intercounty player is guaranteed 7 games in the best time of the year weather wise, the 2nd point is vital, drop off rates now are far too high. You'd surely appreciate this from a province which Dublin have won 15 times in 16 years why would you have an appetite to maintain a dead duck provincial championship, if issues arise tweaks can be made but maintaining a broken system over a system which hasn't even been road tested yet is surely a regressive move.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 13:08:11 2385491 Link 0 |
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Fair play to the Ulster CEO for been open on his views but the man kept contradicting himself, used the super 8s as an example to dismiss option B referencing dead rubbers but there's promotion/relegation in option B but no consequence like this related to the super 8. In option B there will be very little dead rubbers in div 1-3, just really div 4 with no relegation.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 13:12:48 2385493 Link 0 |
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I'd make the leagues meaningful, who ever finishes top wins, none of this league final stuff. Then play provincials and then play open draw 32 county All Ireland. If they want to involve Provincials as part of All Ireland, back to the back door system. Maybe for leagues they could bring in 3 going up or down. This would leave lees dead rubber matches.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 13/10/2021 13:19:40 2385495 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term! brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 13/10/2021 13:51:06 2385517 Link 0 |
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. Leaving aside the fairness issue surely its obvious that a situation worse than a dead rubber could easily arise. Going into last round or 2 of LeagueDiv1 Team A knows its best position is 6th & so is a 'non trier' for the last 2 games. Now thinking also that they will easily make champo from Div 2 next year and have a good run at it knowing they can peak for KO's. Thus 7th or 8th (relegation) is better than 6th. However the margins in the games they 'throw' affect the higher placings due to points/points diff and thus the final positions are corrupted. A situation where 2 teams are fighting to be relegated could easily occur. Now that I read that back - it sounds great. Roll on Prop B - Go for it timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 13/10/2021 14:08:12 2385523 Link 0 |
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I know what you're saying Benny, but weren't Laois the equivalent of top of div2 so where as it was a surprise they beat dublin they were at a pretty high level already. I'd have no problem if they tweaked the B proposal to make it the top 6 teams of div1 and the top 2 teams of div 2, I think that would give us better quarterfinals or 2 good super8 groups if that's the way they wanted to do it. Having teams from div 3 and 4 won't be good for the game in my opinion and there will be hammerings just like before. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 13/10/2021 14:10:59 2385524 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]Totally see your point, from a Tyrone perspective if 4 of the big matches were away games, couple of players injured, and trying their best to stay up, they wouldn't play in All Ireland if they survived in 6th. Nonsense rule to even think about. There are two clear tiers in the football and they are D1 and 2, then Div 3 and 4. Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 13/10/2021 14:35:14 2385531 Link 0 |
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Teams that finish higher in the league are eliminated from the championship entirely whilst teams that m finish lower in the league are progress to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguirechampionship. All of the teams in Division Three and Division Four are guaranteed knockout championship games in either the Sam Maguire or the Tailteann Cup whilst eight teams in Division One and Two will see their seasons end at the conclusion of the league. How is that fair? Relegation from Division One to Division Two will give some teams a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire championship the following season. Put simply Option B isn't good enough. There are too many anomalies and it doesn't resolve the issue of a lack of fairness.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 13/10/2021 14:36:42 2385532 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed. Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 13/10/2021 14:38:37 2385533 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]With 2 teams getting promoted and relegated there shouldn't be many dead rubbers in div 2 and 3, just use the national league pre covid as a reference point, agree on div 4 but no relegation in that division. Do you think it will be beneficial for teams to get relegated from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4? If Kildare, Meath, Armagh etc. want to kick on a level be competitive against Tyrone, Dublin, Kerry etc. do you think they'll achieve this just staying in division 2. Look at the hurling championship, since Joe Mcdonagh cup was introduced in 2018 Carlow, Laois, Antrim and Westmeath have won that competition and delighted to get promotion, do you think any teams at that grade are thinking ah we're grand where we are. There is no guarantee option B would be a success but the qualifier structure has a proven track record of becoming more and more stale in the last decade, maybe bringing in the tailteann cup would bring some life to it but i think option B should be trialled ( players want it most importantly) and if any issues arise tweaks can be made. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 14:40:03 2385534 Link 0 |
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Derry won division 3 this year, if they were against Armagh or Kildare this year they'd fancy their chances, next year Cavan could easily win div 4, they'd feel they could compete with most maybe all div 2 teams.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 14:56:49 2385538 Link 0 |
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Teams that finish higher in the league are eliminated from the championship entirely whilst teams that m finish lower in the league are progress to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguirechampionship. All of the teams in Division Three and Division Four are guaranteed knockout championship games in either the Sam Maguire or the Tailteann Cup whilst eight teams in Division One and Two will see their seasons end at the conclusion of the league. How is that fair? Relegation from Division One to Division Two will give some teams a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire championship the following season. Put simply Option B isn't good enough. There are too many anomalies and it doesn't resolve the issue of a lack of fairness."]Just because games would be the league phase doesn't mean they're not important or dont have a championship feel and there would be 7 of these games, I'll just give a hypothetical scenario if option B won the vote( don't think it will BTW but hope I'm wrong) Week 1 of the league/championship in div 1 Monaghan v Kerry- Clones Mayo v Dublin- Castlebar Kildare v Tyrone- Newbridge Donegal v Armagh- Ballybofey There's 4 games with proper championship feel with plenty at stake, I'd say sell outs in Castlebar and Newbridge, close to it on Ballybofey, Monaghan Kerry in the super 8s in 2018 in Clones drew 17k which is huge considering Monaghan has a population of 50k i think. Your avoiding the point that every team is guaranteed minimum 7 games under option B during championship months, with status quo this is 2 maybe 3 depending on how tailteann cup is integrated. Your talking about fairness but 7 games to qualify to the section you aspire to is fairness in my eyes. They're could be issues with option B but why persist with the broken system we have. bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 13/10/2021 15:13:05 2385540 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed."]. It was obvious 10 minutes after the proposal was mooted if you thought about it. Now that the issues have been aired how do you fix it?? timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 13/10/2021 15:14:49 2385541 Link 0 |
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But again, is the fact that Div. 3 or Div. 4 winners might feel they have a chance against Div. 2 sides a good enough reason to put them through at the expense of Div. 1 sides? Am sure that the teams finishing 6th, 7th, and 8th in Div. 1 would feel they've a chance of victory against Div. 2 sides as well. Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 13/10/2021 15:14:55 2385542 Link 0 |
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I think the hurling to football comparison really isn't that great to be honest. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 13/10/2021 15:16:17 2385543 Link 0 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]This is certainly a flaw in Proposal B. I think it would become very obvious after one season and then fixed."]. It was obvious 10 minutes after the proposal was mooted if you thought about it. Now that the issues have been aired how do you fix it??"]. I will answer my own Q - obviously have 3 teams relegated from Div 1. Simple. However thats not the proposal on the Table and wouldn't solve the issue of relegation to Div 3 & 4 being an advantage for teams. timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 13/10/2021 15:50:54 2385549 Link 0 |
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Teams that finish higher in the league are eliminated from the championship entirely whilst teams that m finish lower in the league are progress to the knockout stages of the Sam Maguirechampionship. All of the teams in Division Three and Division Four are guaranteed knockout championship games in either the Sam Maguire or the Tailteann Cup whilst eight teams in Division One and Two will see their seasons end at the conclusion of the league. How is that fair? Relegation from Division One to Division Two will give some teams a better chance of qualifying for the Sam Maguire championship the following season. Put simply Option B isn't good enough. There are too many anomalies and it doesn't resolve the issue of a lack of fairness."]Just because games would be the league phase doesn't mean they're not important or dont have a championship feel and there would be 7 of these games, I'll just give a hypothetical scenario if option B won the vote( don't think it will BTW but hope I'm wrong) Week 1 of the league/championship in div 1 Monaghan v Kerry- Clones Mayo v Dublin- Castlebar Kildare v Tyrone- Newbridge Donegal v Armagh- Ballybofey There's 4 games with proper championship feel with plenty at stake, I'd say sell outs in Castlebar and Newbridge, close to it on Ballybofey, Monaghan Kerry in the super 8s in 2018 in Clones drew 17k which is huge considering Monaghan has a population of 50k i think. Your avoiding the point that every team is guaranteed minimum 7 games under option B during championship months, with status quo this is 2 maybe 3 depending on how tailteann cup is integrated. Your talking about fairness but 7 games to qualify to the section you aspire to is fairness in my eyes. They're could be issues with option B but why persist with the broken system we have."]League is league wexico and always will be. You can dress it up whatever way you like but the league stage of the championship will be the preliminary stage in all but name. The real championship starts with knockout and only ten teams will be taking part with half of the top 16 teams gone. The league is already a cracking competition. The system we have is not as broken as you make out. I was in Clones for the Monaghan Kerry Super 8s game. I was also in Clones for an Ulster semi final in 2014 between Tyrone and Monaghan. They were both great days but they didn't compare to any of the Ulster Finals I attended in Clones. I'm not prepared to see that dispensed within favour of the deeply flawed structure that is Option B. Go back to the drawing board and come back with a real proposal . Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 13/10/2021 16:11:23 2385551 Link 1 |
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Looking at the promotion / relegation aspect. Lets ask the question what is the consequence of relegation from Division 1? Arguably you have a better chance of qualifying for the All Ireland series the following year? Next year Division 1 & 2 are as follows: Div 1 - Dublin; Kerry; Tyrone; Donegal; Monaghan; Armagh; Mayo; Kildare Div 2 - Galway; Roscommon; Meath; Down; Clare; Cork; Derry; Offaly With 5 teams through from Division 1 and 3 through from Division 2 Kildare beat Meath to get promoted to Div 1 this year. Monaghan beat Galway to stay in Division 1. Which teams are more likely to benefit from that under Proposal B? I would argue Meath and Galway are more likely to get knock out football thank Monaghan and Kildare. That is a serious flaw in the system baked in from the start. Your All Ireland chances may be better progressed by dropping down a division. There might be few dead rubbers in Division 1; but there certainly will be in Divisions 2,3 & 4 - especially given relegation could be ultimately beneficial in the short term!"]With 2 teams getting promoted and relegated there shouldn't be many dead rubbers in div 2 and 3, just use the national league pre covid as a reference point, agree on div 4 but no relegation in that division. Do you think it will be beneficial for teams to get relegated from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4? If Kildare, Meath, Armagh etc. want to kick on a level be competitive against Tyrone, Dublin, Kerry etc. do you think they'll achieve this just staying in division 2. Look at the hurling championship, since Joe Mcdonagh cup was introduced in 2018 Carlow, Laois, Antrim and Westmeath have won that competition and delighted to get promotion, do you think any teams at that grade are thinking ah we're grand where we are. There is no guarantee option B would be a success but the qualifier structure has a proven track record of becoming more and more stale in the last decade, maybe bringing in the tailteann cup would bring some life to it but i think option B should be trialled ( players want it most importantly) and if any issues arise tweaks can be made."]I agree on most of your points there. I can't see any team aiming for relegation but the point remains in the short term it might help their chances the following year. A fairer system would have teams there in merit at all times. The hurling system works well because of the tiered nature of the competition - hence every county want to win it and get promoted. I don't see what is wrong with a truly tiered system where you progress or regress on merit. I think prior to trialing Option B we should anticipate the issues and propose the tweaks to make it a success. Issue # 1 - Provincial championships loose status Tweak # 1 - Unqualified provincial champions qualify for the All Ireland rather than the Div 3 & 4 champion Issue # 2 - 6th in Division 1 are out of the championship where as 3rd in Division 2 are in Tweak # 2 - Seed totally based on league positions - rank 1st & 2nd in Div 2 above 7th & 8th in Div 1 I think then you might have an improvement on the status quo. It would quickly become evident that Division 1 was not properly competitive because 6 teams qualify for the knock out every year Issue # 3 - Inventive is to finish in top 5/6 rather than top 2 leading to dead rubbers where both teams are already qualified. Tweak # 3 - combine divisions 1 & 2 / 3 & 4 into Tier 1 & Tier 2 with promotion / relegation between the tiers Issue # 4 - Despite all best efforts we're still seeing mismatches between the top and bottom teams in both Tiers Tweak # 4 - Introduce Tier 1 (12 teams), Tier 2 (10 teams) , Tier 3 (10 teams) competitions with promotion/relegation between tiers and a knock out cup for the top 6 in each division. I don't see Option B as better than the Status Quo at the moment - with a couple of major changes it would become more palatable to me and with a few more changes it could become a vibrant championship. Why not skip straight to this? brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 13/10/2021 16:13:31 2385552 Link 0 |
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. How does having Louth lads play their Div 3 games in summer (and still get relegated or stagnate possibly) fix the problem in Leinster. It doesn't as the Leinster problem isn't weather related. Meanwhile the provincials are gone, the backdoor is gone & most thus teams don't get a chance to compete for Sam. Not to mention the anomalies. Remind me again - what's the upside? Apart from the craic at the end of the Div 1 campaign where Kildare say, having no chance of qualifying get beaten badly by Mayo for arguments sake who pip Tyrone to 5th place on points diff. Admittedly that would be good craic! timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 13/10/2021 17:35:05 2385563 Link 0 |