National Forum

Should Unvaccinated Fans Be Allowed Into Croke Park?

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Getting vaccinated does NOT stop people from getting covid or does NOT stop people spreading it. It stops you from getting severely sick in most cases. Vaccinated or not you still should be social distance and wear masks

tom84 (Cavan) - Posts: 297 - 01/09/2021 22:23:45    2377138

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Replying To Peadarw:  "as is your right
i find it ironic that us "scum" respect that other people have the freedom to choose for themselves what they want to do ..i even commend them on it but god forbid we have any fears or worries ourselves about potential side effects
i agree with you if it stopped infection or transmission it would make the risk a little easier to accept but since it only lessens the chances im gonna hold out for a while yet"
Guarantee 100% is not something that any vaccine will give you however do not mix that up with stopping the chain of transmission so undoubtedly this vaccine does. Anyone who says anything different are only looking for reasons to justify their own actions. Personal rights are not an absolute so saying its your right is also incorrect as society has never granted unlimited Personal rights. What is undeniable is that you are relying on the rest of society to keep you safe and that's why people use such language to describe people who do not get it. If you want to live in a society where you want zero covid without a vaccine then be prepared to see a sacrifice of a lot more than your right not to take the vaccine.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1310 - 02/09/2021 00:12:45    2377155

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "The length of time really would be big 1, I was told by a MD last August 2020 when I asked about a covid vaccine on the subject of something which is my personal business. I was told it would take at least 5 to 6 years to develop a proper vaccine if it was fully trailed and tested to see full side-effects and effectiveness and alot of other vaccines have taken 10 to 15 years from concept to commission, the HPV vaccine took 30 years. The full side-effects of these vaccines won't be known for a few years yet. I have no problem with others challenging my views and opinions on this, I have put them them on a public forum and I expect that but it's nasty to call me and others scum for what, for being cautious. All the vaccines available now don't stop infection and transmission, I know they give you a better chance of fighting covid-19 but there is still vaccinated people getting sick too and some others getting bad reactions too. Not 1 company who developed a covid vaccine that is on the market are taking on the responsibility of potential of legal action against them, they passed all that off to the government's of the country's where they are being administered. At this present moment the criteria for me to get a vaccine is, if there was a vaccine that would stop infection and transmission I would take the risk for reasons that are my business."
That's a good post.

But can I ask. .
If you are so worried about the potential long term side effects of the vaccine, what makes you less worried about the potential side effects of Covid?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4555 - 02/09/2021 07:58:34    2377170

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Replying To tom84:  "Getting vaccinated does NOT stop people from getting covid or does NOT stop people spreading it. It stops you from getting severely sick in most cases. Vaccinated or not you still should be social distance and wear masks"
But, but... your masters have decided you won't have to unless on a bus or in the shop soon :-)

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 312 - 02/09/2021 09:38:57    2377178

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Replying To yew_tree:  "As someone with a family member with cancer who has had scans etc cancelled due to covid I can tell you covid is and will have a massive impact on cancer treatment and care. I know a man currently in ICU fighting for his life who refused the vaccine…thought he knew better. He is rightly being treated and I hope he pulls through but he shouldn't be there if only he took the vaccine."
Yew_tree I'm sorry to hear about your family member and I wish them a full recovery, what I trying to say was I don't think covid-19 patients in hospital are getting precedence over other seriously ill patients in hospital like cancer patients. I mentioned and criticised earlier in the year on a different thread about cancer screening appointments being cancelled on people because of covid-19 but that is down to a poorly run and managed health care system, none of those scans should have being cancelled. We are a first world country with possibly the worst run health care system in Western Europe. I hope your friend beats covid too but I also know 2 people and a work colleague's son who got violently sick after their vaccines too. Like I said already I'm taking all precautions, I afford to bring covid into my house either and like I say if there was a vaccine that would stop infection and transmission I would take the risk but at the moment I won't be forced or bullied into taking something I'm not comfortable with.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 02/09/2021 09:57:54    2377185

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Replying To cavanman47:  "That's a good post.

But can I ask. .
If you are so worried about the potential long term side effects of the vaccine, what makes you less worried about the potential side effects of Covid?"
Yes that is exactly what I'm worried about the potential long term side-effects, I think it's too soon to know them yet. I want to wait to see the full results and that takes time, scientists are still researching all this. I was driving into work last week I was listening to newstalk and they said if I remember correctly I think it was the Pfizer vaccine is gone from 84% effective down to 67%/68% effective that doesn't instill me with confidence.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 02/09/2021 10:07:42    2377188

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Yew_tree I'm sorry to hear about your family member and I wish them a full recovery, what I trying to say was I don't think covid-19 patients in hospital are getting precedence over other seriously ill patients in hospital like cancer patients. I mentioned and criticised earlier in the year on a different thread about cancer screening appointments being cancelled on people because of covid-19 but that is down to a poorly run and managed health care system, none of those scans should have being cancelled. We are a first world country with possibly the worst run health care system in Western Europe. I hope your friend beats covid too but I also know 2 people and a work colleague's son who got violently sick after their vaccines too. Like I said already I'm taking all precautions, I afford to bring covid into my house either and like I say if there was a vaccine that would stop infection and transmission I would take the risk but at the moment I won't be forced or bullied into taking something I'm not comfortable with."
Of course and I was not implying you did. Every patient is treated equally (well unless you can afford private healthcare) but the fact is if ICU beds start to fill up with covid patients then there is a knock on effect. Hospitals are already at breaking point. I was talking to a paramedic in Galway only last week who said they are extremely concerned about capacity this winter as UHG is already at breaking point. UHM in Castlebar is a complete mess.

The reason we have seen restrictions last so long is our health system is not fit for purpose. That's no slight on the doctors and nurses who are world class but those running it and indeed governments have mismanaged it for years. It's unacceptable.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10820 - 02/09/2021 10:18:24    2377192

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Replying To zinny:  "Guarantee 100% is not something that any vaccine will give you however do not mix that up with stopping the chain of transmission so undoubtedly this vaccine does. Anyone who says anything different are only looking for reasons to justify their own actions. Personal rights are not an absolute so saying its your right is also incorrect as society has never granted unlimited Personal rights. What is undeniable is that you are relying on the rest of society to keep you safe and that's why people use such language to describe people who do not get it. If you want to live in a society where you want zero covid without a vaccine then be prepared to see a sacrifice of a lot more than your right not to take the vaccine."
None of the vaccines available stop the chain of transmission that's a fact, you can still catch covid and give it to someone else l, the vaccines give you a better chance of fighting off covid-19. I relying on nobody only myself to protect myself from covid-19, I spent hundreds of euro on vitamin supplements for me and my family. I social distance where possible, I wear my mask and wash and sanitise my hands at every opportunity in work and in public but also I want some form of quality of life.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 02/09/2021 10:25:18    2377196

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Anyone who is calling or supporting certain people being excluded from going to our games on the basis of not wanting to take part in a medical experiment, is every bit as bad as those who discriminate against any other minority group.

A scandalous suggestion and anyone who supports it has lost the run of themselves and has lost all sense of perspective.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 305 - 02/09/2021 11:42:26    2377218

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After reading an article in the Irish Independent today it would make any neutral or certainly anyone from Ulster want Tyrone to win the All Ireland. I was shocked at the passive aggressive nature of it. This narrative will suit Tyrone though as they'll arrive in Croke Park with a siege mentality which is dangerous for Mayo.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 852 - 02/09/2021 12:48:26    2377230

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Anyone who is calling or supporting certain people being excluded from going to our games on the basis of not wanting to take part in a medical experiment, is every bit as bad as those who discriminate against any other minority group.

A scandalous suggestion and anyone who supports it has lost the run of themselves and has lost all sense of perspective."
It's not discrimination at all.

In law there is a concept which is known as "objective justification" and what that means is that if the discrimination is justified it is not unlawful.

In order to be classed as justified discrimination it must be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and one of the legally accepted reasons is the health, safety and welfare of individuals.

So you are incorrect to suggest that it is "every bit as bad as those who discriminate against any other minority group" and you fail to recognize that there is such a thing as "justified discrimination".

Yesterdays announcement by Government that from September 6th "outdoor events will see up to 75% capacity permitted for those who are vaccinated" is a perfect example of what I am talking about, it's "justified discrimination" so it is not unlawful.

So technically 60,000 could be permitted to attend the All-Ireland final but as I said here a few days ago it would simply take too long for Croke Park to check if all those presenting vaccination QR codes were the same individual who was entering the stadium as photo ID would also need to be checked and yesterday the GAA president echoed what I said when he said :

"It was a logistical issue - we have not trialed being able to check vaccine passports or vaccine documentation," he said. "So it was too onerous to get 60,000 into Croke Park in a condensed time. We didn't think we had the expertise to do it so we decided we would stick with the current amount.

"You're not only checking a vaccine passport but you're checking a photo ID and you're checking a ticket. That could take up to three minutes. If we were super competent at it we might be able to reduce that but the time frame was much too onerous for us to get it done efficiently"

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 02/09/2021 13:12:12    2377241

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "None of the vaccines available stop the chain of transmission that's a fact, you can still catch covid and give it to someone else l, the vaccines give you a better chance of fighting off covid-19. I relying on nobody only myself to protect myself from covid-19, I spent hundreds of euro on vitamin supplements for me and my family. I social distance where possible, I wear my mask and wash and sanitise my hands at every opportunity in work and in public but also I want some form of quality of life."
Stopping the chain of transmission does not need 100% efficiency what it does need is 100% take-up. The vaccine does stop you from getting covid, no-one said it was 100% effective at stopping everyone who get it from getting covid. When will people stop this narrative. Nothing will stop you from taking the virus into your body but the antibodies destroy it. So if you want to be technical about it Nothing bar not breathing will stop the virus from getting into your body however that is different from getting covid. That is the way they all work. So please stop this nonsense about this as its a misrepresentation of the facts.
Believe me you can be as careful as you want but non of what you are doing will make any difference if the rest of the population are not vaccinated.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1310 - 02/09/2021 13:37:14    2377253

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Replying To sam1884:  "After reading an article in the Irish Independent today it would make any neutral or certainly anyone from Ulster want Tyrone to win the All Ireland. I was shocked at the passive aggressive nature of it. This narrative will suit Tyrone though as they'll arrive in Croke Park with a siege mentality which is dangerous for Mayo."
When have they not arrived with a "siege mentality" ?

I don't need to read the Indo to know that, there wont be too many around Crossmaglen or anywhere in Armagh shouting for Tyrone, I can guarantee you that.

There's one or two on here from Donegal fawning over Tyrone, they clearly know their rightful place. If they stopped the fawning they might actually be looking forward to going to the final themselves.

Everyone knows about Tyrone's "siege mentality" at this stage but it doesn't guarantee you anything, if it did Tyrone and Wexford under Davy would be regular All-Ireland winners.

It's easy to say that Tyrone's siege mentally won the day v Kerry but the reality is that Kerry's own mistakes cost them the game and on another day Kerry would have beaten them by 7 or 8 points, but they didn't and on that basis Tyrone deserve to be in the final.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 02/09/2021 13:43:33    2377257

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Replying To zinny:  "Stopping the chain of transmission does not need 100% efficiency what it does need is 100% take-up. The vaccine does stop you from getting covid, no-one said it was 100% effective at stopping everyone who get it from getting covid. When will people stop this narrative. Nothing will stop you from taking the virus into your body but the antibodies destroy it. So if you want to be technical about it Nothing bar not breathing will stop the virus from getting into your body however that is different from getting covid. That is the way they all work. So please stop this nonsense about this as its a misrepresentation of the facts.
Believe me you can be as careful as you want but non of what you are doing will make any difference if the rest of the population are not vaccinated."
The vaccines pre-date some of the newer strains of COVID. I think that's part of the reason why vaccine effectiveness levels are being reduced. Some boosters will offer protection against new strains based on when the boosters are created and what strains they will protect against at that time. Vaccinated or not vaccinated we still need to be vigilant on COVID protocols. We need to get back towards normal but be very aware that there's still a risk of getting COVID and not lapse back into a comfort zone. Anyways, it's great to be getting closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6284 - 02/09/2021 14:29:42    2377264

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In the interests of everyone the current restriction should remain for All ireland Final. Covod restrictions are riddled with conflicting restrictions but right now anything else is going to cause untold confusion.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4732 - 02/09/2021 14:39:32    2377265

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "But, but... your masters have decided you won't have to unless on a bus or in the shop soon :-)"
My master?

tom84 (Cavan) - Posts: 297 - 02/09/2021 14:58:22    2377270

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Replying To zinny:  "Stopping the chain of transmission does not need 100% efficiency what it does need is 100% take-up. The vaccine does stop you from getting covid, no-one said it was 100% effective at stopping everyone who get it from getting covid. When will people stop this narrative. Nothing will stop you from taking the virus into your body but the antibodies destroy it. So if you want to be technical about it Nothing bar not breathing will stop the virus from getting into your body however that is different from getting covid. That is the way they all work. So please stop this nonsense about this as its a misrepresentation of the facts.
Believe me you can be as careful as you want but non of what you are doing will make any difference if the rest of the population are not vaccinated."
Double vaccinated people have died of covid Zinny. The vaccines reduce your chances of this happening but to say getting a vaccine means you cant get covid is just lulling people into a false sense of security. And I personally know of several instances where double vaccinated friends passed covid onto other double vaccinated people so they are most certainly not 100% effective at preventing transmission.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3333 - 02/09/2021 15:15:06    2377274

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Anyone who is calling or supporting certain people being excluded from going to our games on the basis of not wanting to take part in a medical experiment, is every bit as bad as those who discriminate against any other minority group.

A scandalous suggestion and anyone who supports it has lost the run of themselves and has lost all sense of perspective."
A non vaccinated person is more likely to get severe symptoms than a vaccinated one. But I've yet to see the results of any studies suggesting that non vaccinated people are more or less likely to pass it on. Obviously that part of the medical experiment/mass human trial hasnt produced any concrete results. Being as that is the case I agree it's very unfair that non vaccinated people are being discriminated against.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3333 - 02/09/2021 15:20:47    2377278

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Replying To Viking66:  "Double vaccinated people have died of covid Zinny. The vaccines reduce your chances of this happening but to say getting a vaccine means you cant get covid is just lulling people into a false sense of security. And I personally know of several instances where double vaccinated friends passed covid onto other double vaccinated people so they are most certainly not 100% effective at preventing transmission."
I never said that vaccines were 100% as we all know they are not, what I said is that it's a false narrative to say that all vaccines don't stop you from getting covid and all they do is stop you from getting very sick. The vaccine is our only hope of breaking the chain however having unvaccinated make it very hard because you have to already deal with the fact that the vaccine is not 100% effective.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1310 - 02/09/2021 16:09:29    2377297

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Replying To zinny:  "I never said that vaccines were 100% as we all know they are not, what I said is that it's a false narrative to say that all vaccines don't stop you from getting covid and all they do is stop you from getting very sick. The vaccine is our only hope of breaking the chain however having unvaccinated make it very hard because you have to already deal with the fact that the vaccine is not 100% effective."
I see what way you are thinking Zinny but I dont think we are going to eradicate covid even if we have 100% take up of the vaccines currently available. And if people are forced into taking them, either overtly or by being blackmailed by being told they cant do this or that unless they get the vaccine, it's another step on from nanny stateism to totalitarianism. Brave New World, 1984 and the film V for Vendetta are all entertaining books and movies but paint a stark picture of what way life is heading around the world the last 20 years.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3333 - 02/09/2021 17:03:18    2377315

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