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Kildare Vs Dublin

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Iv said it on here in the past that dublin are producing incredible athletes on an industrial scale, athletes that are primed and programed and ready to slot straight into the dublin "system" to follow the "process"."
Ahh KIngdom they are much more than athletes. Howard, Fenton, James McCarthy, Mick Fitzsimmons, Rock, Murchan et al are superb natural footballers. Now, I know you have misgivings about Kilkenny's style but I think he is one of the finest footballers of his generation. The modern game requires incredible levels of athleticism and he has that in abundance but he has so much more. I have Kerry cousins very involved in football and they all say that nobody could strike a dead ball and direct it into the space into which a player will run with the accuracy of Cluxton. It was talent plus hard work that created that facility: not some computer programme.
If you look at the language you use you can see every syllable is straining to produce the impression that Dublin lack "natural" footballers: "Producing on an industrial scale", "primed and programmed" "system" and "process". Footballers are human beings: you can't turn them into machines, It's hard not to come away with the impression that this is just bitterness talking. You cannot accommodate the thought that Dublin have dominated football for a decade, just like ye did in the 70s and 80s. It's an utter shock to your system. So rather than just accept it you resort to demeaning it.
Have you seen the musculature on guys like Dara Moynihan?? Even David Clifford has bulked up massively. That's all produced in a gym ! There is a huge emphasis in Kerry GAA on S&C.
The thing is the Dublin squad have "created" a culture of excellence that "evolved" organically, especially under the direction of Gavin.
But like all natural things this will end soon. Because of the draining away of some of our most naturally gifted footballers the team now depend more heavily on a system they know works especially against resolute blanket defences. I thought the Leinster final was an awful spectacle. What I saw was a team in decline deploying a tried and tested system. Kerry , a team in the ascendancy tried the same in the munster final a year ago and it all came unstuck. . All things must pass, fortunately.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1818 - 06/08/2021 11:30:22    2368206

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Replying To avonali:  "Good point. Mind you he did bring Ambrose O'Donovan in in 1984 and he was made captain straight away."
And Ger Lynch Tom Spillane John Keneddy Timmy Dowd and Willie Maher

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2769 - 06/08/2021 11:43:30    2368209

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "And Ger Lynch Tom Spillane John Keneddy Timmy Dowd and Willie Maher"
I remember my father saying that O'Donovan had the biggest pair of hands he'd ever seen on a man. :-D. A big wild man from Gneegevuilla

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1818 - 06/08/2021 12:05:53    2368216

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "And Ger Lynch Tom Spillane John Keneddy Timmy Dowd and Willie Maher"
Fair points there Avon and CM, I'm of slightly younger vintage than you pair of fine wines ;) So my memories was Micko had roughly the same 10-12 player corps. I'll accept my telling off in good grace.

I think if you look at that Kerry team, the lads coming in from the early 80's weren't as good as what was there and weren't able to maintain the success. I'm not sure how their underage success rate was then and if they had that conveyer belt rolling through and as i said success breeding success.

TBF to Dublin, they got things right at underage first, Minor and U21/20's level and then when the lads made the break through in 2011 it spurred on those younger lads. I don't think they should be hammered for it. If you look at soccer manchester united and their success from the early 90's was based of older lads who were nearly men then making a breakthrough and being supplanted by some underage success.

Dublin's underage success is starting to dry up and the quality of player coming through isn't of the same standard and they will come back to the pack. The GAA have seen what's happenend in terms the money that was pumped into Dublin underage and have now rectified that with the East Leinster project and Meath, Kildare and Offaly are now starting to win at underage. The tide is turning, not quickly enough for some, but until the Fenton's, Con's, Kilkenny's etc are gone Dublin will still be there or thereabouts. It's up to others to bridge the gap and stop whinging about money and advantages.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1389 - 06/08/2021 12:35:33    2368224

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Replying To avonali:  "Ahh KIngdom they are much more than athletes. Howard, Fenton, James McCarthy, Mick Fitzsimmons, Rock, Murchan et al are superb natural footballers. Now, I know you have misgivings about Kilkenny's style but I think he is one of the finest footballers of his generation. The modern game requires incredible levels of athleticism and he has that in abundance but he has so much more. I have Kerry cousins very involved in football and they all say that nobody could strike a dead ball and direct it into the space into which a player will run with the accuracy of Cluxton. It was talent plus hard work that created that facility: not some computer programme.
If you look at the language you use you can see every syllable is straining to produce the impression that Dublin lack "natural" footballers: "Producing on an industrial scale", "primed and programmed" "system" and "process". Footballers are human beings: you can't turn them into machines, It's hard not to come away with the impression that this is just bitterness talking. You cannot accommodate the thought that Dublin have dominated football for a decade, just like ye did in the 70s and 80s. It's an utter shock to your system. So rather than just accept it you resort to demeaning it.
Have you seen the musculature on guys like Dara Moynihan?? Even David Clifford has bulked up massively. That's all produced in a gym ! There is a huge emphasis in Kerry GAA on S&C.
The thing is the Dublin squad have "created" a culture of excellence that "evolved" organically, especially under the direction of Gavin.
But like all natural things this will end soon. Because of the draining away of some of our most naturally gifted footballers the team now depend more heavily on a system they know works especially against resolute blanket defences. I thought the Leinster final was an awful spectacle. What I saw was a team in decline deploying a tried and tested system. Kerry , a team in the ascendancy tried the same in the munster final a year ago and it all came unstuck. . All things must pass, fortunately."
I think yer system is built around athletes first and formost Avon I'd say they're are probably numbers that players must be hitting to break into the squad or to maintain a place in the squad, I think football skills are away down the list in what is required to make the dublin panel.

Ya Kerry have employed a full time S&C coach now, we've had to to try and catch up to dublin, every téam with serious thoughts of winning an allireland will have to do the same now because of dublin, it's the same with dieticians even though we couldnt match ye on that front having meals delivered daily to our players like ye do.

3 of the 6 words that I used that offended you are words that Jim gavin has used himself many times in interviews (primed system and process) il take the hit for produced on an industrial scale and programmed but that's how it looks from the outside.

Dubs and other poster on here have even mentioned how bored the dublin players look now, its just a case of going through the motions and sticking to the process, in fairness our lads don't win allirelands anymore but at least they look happy on the field and look like theyre enjoining themselves playing their off the cuff football and bringing us supporters lots of enjoyment.

It's supposed to be an amateur sport after all.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13754 - 06/08/2021 12:46:25    2368225

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I think yer system is built around athletes first and formost Avon I'd say they're are probably numbers that players must be hitting to break into the squad or to maintain a place in the squad, I think football skills are away down the list in what is required to make the dublin panel.

Ya Kerry have employed a full time S&C coach now, we've had to to try and catch up to dublin, every téam with serious thoughts of winning an allireland will have to do the same now because of dublin, it's the same with dieticians even though we couldnt match ye on that front having meals delivered daily to our players like ye do.

3 of the 6 words that I used that offended you are words that Jim gavin has used himself many times in interviews (primed system and process) il take the hit for produced on an industrial scale and programmed but that's how it looks from the outside.

Dubs and other poster on here have even mentioned how bored the dublin players look now, its just a case of going through the motions and sticking to the process, in fairness our lads don't win allirelands anymore but at least they look happy on the field and look like theyre enjoining themselves playing their off the cuff football and bringing us supporters lots of enjoyment.

It's supposed to be an amateur sport after all."
Fair enough Kingdom, but we'll know soon enough if Dublin are producing winning teams like so many goods on a conveyor belt or this is the tail end of a an extraordinary run of talent. I

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1818 - 06/08/2021 13:05:50    2368228

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Replying To brian:  "Fair points there Avon and CM, I'm of slightly younger vintage than you pair of fine wines ;) So my memories was Micko had roughly the same 10-12 player corps. I'll accept my telling off in good grace.

I think if you look at that Kerry team, the lads coming in from the early 80's weren't as good as what was there and weren't able to maintain the success. I'm not sure how their underage success rate was then and if they had that conveyer belt rolling through and as i said success breeding success.

TBF to Dublin, they got things right at underage first, Minor and U21/20's level and then when the lads made the break through in 2011 it spurred on those younger lads. I don't think they should be hammered for it. If you look at soccer manchester united and their success from the early 90's was based of older lads who were nearly men then making a breakthrough and being supplanted by some underage success.

Dublin's underage success is starting to dry up and the quality of player coming through isn't of the same standard and they will come back to the pack. The GAA have seen what's happenend in terms the money that was pumped into Dublin underage and have now rectified that with the East Leinster project and Meath, Kildare and Offaly are now starting to win at underage. The tide is turning, not quickly enough for some, but until the Fenton's, Con's, Kilkenny's etc are gone Dublin will still be there or thereabouts. It's up to others to bridge the gap and stop whinging about money and advantages."
When the fenton cons and Kilkennys are gone?

I remember hearing once flynn Connolly the brogans Mike mccauly were gone that dublin would be back in the pack and that but hasn't happened Brian.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13754 - 06/08/2021 13:32:45    2368233

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Replying To avonali:  "Fair enough Kingdom, but we'll know soon enough if Dublin are producing winning teams like so many goods on a conveyor belt or this is the tail end of a an extraordinary run of talent. I"
You're right Avon we'll know soon enough but I'm very very confident dublin will keep winning, ye still have home advantage for every big (massive advantage) and choice of hometown reffs as well ( massive advantage)

Plus the gaa love ye coz ye make them money so theyll keep greasing the cogs of the dublin machine.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13754 - 06/08/2021 13:37:40    2368235

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Replying To brian:  "Fair points there Avon and CM, I'm of slightly younger vintage than you pair of fine wines ;) So my memories was Micko had roughly the same 10-12 player corps. I'll accept my telling off in good grace.

I think if you look at that Kerry team, the lads coming in from the early 80's weren't as good as what was there and weren't able to maintain the success. I'm not sure how their underage success rate was then and if they had that conveyer belt rolling through and as i said success breeding success.

TBF to Dublin, they got things right at underage first, Minor and U21/20's level and then when the lads made the break through in 2011 it spurred on those younger lads. I don't think they should be hammered for it. If you look at soccer manchester united and their success from the early 90's was based of older lads who were nearly men then making a breakthrough and being supplanted by some underage success.

Dublin's underage success is starting to dry up and the quality of player coming through isn't of the same standard and they will come back to the pack. The GAA have seen what's happenend in terms the money that was pumped into Dublin underage and have now rectified that with the East Leinster project and Meath, Kildare and Offaly are now starting to win at underage. The tide is turning, not quickly enough for some, but until the Fenton's, Con's, Kilkenny's etc are gone Dublin will still be there or thereabouts. It's up to others to bridge the gap and stop whinging about money and advantages."
I logged in here because I had a small interest in another thread but it seems to have been removed or deleted for some reason so I spotted this. It's my opinion that you are only partially correct, as far as I am aware the GAA have not corrected anything re Dublin's finances, but yes it's on their agenda to tackle the issue, even if they cut the supply line completely it won't weaken the strangle hold that Dublin have over the rest, Dublin are very cleverly structured in such a way that they will be by and large financially secure. also, the issue is not to focus on Dublin alone but all other counties across the board. For the record I am involved with the hurlers only, there is a big push to promote hurling in the Kildare county from under age up and that's to be welcomed, there will be a demand to see that counties like Leitrim, Carlow, Longford, Roscommon, and others will get their fair share, I'm not familiar with the east leinster project so I can't comment.
Dublin will remain strong for the next 3 or 4 years, they know what is coming so they will be well prepared.

Cuhullain (Kildare) - Posts: 242 - 06/08/2021 13:49:14    2368238

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "When the fenton cons and Kilkennys are gone?

I remember hearing once flynn Connolly the brogans Mike mccauly were gone that dublin would be back in the pack and that but hasn't happened Brian."
I think you're right here. There's more to it that just underage structures in Dublin's favour. The sponsorship and commercial aspect brings in a huge amount of cash to fund the structures. But dropping the money aspect for a minute - how fair is the football setup at the moment?

Firstly - should every kid wanting to play GAA have access to top quality coaching; this has been a massive yes for Dublln for almost 20 years - the east Leinster project is addressing this gap but the likes of Kildare and Meath are playing 15 years catch up here. It should also be taken outside of Leinster.

Secondly - when it comes to the inter-county game is it fair that one county have access to a full time coaching setup; with top notch video and statistical analysis; multiple physios with dieticians and nutritionists designing and delivering every meal?

This is supposedly an amateur competition - the backroom support that is available to one county should be available to all. Dublin's structure is 100% professional and unchecked is slowly strangling the game.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 114 - 06/08/2021 14:42:54    2368253

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I think yer system is built around athletes first and formost Avon I'd say they're are probably numbers that players must be hitting to break into the squad or to maintain a place in the squad, I think football skills are away down the list in what is required to make the dublin panel.

Ya Kerry have employed a full time S&C coach now, we've had to to try and catch up to dublin, every téam with serious thoughts of winning an allireland will have to do the same now because of dublin, it's the same with dieticians even though we couldnt match ye on that front having meals delivered daily to our players like ye do.

3 of the 6 words that I used that offended you are words that Jim gavin has used himself many times in interviews (primed system and process) il take the hit for produced on an industrial scale and programmed but that's how it looks from the outside.

Dubs and other poster on here have even mentioned how bored the dublin players look now, its just a case of going through the motions and sticking to the process, in fairness our lads don't win allirelands anymore but at least they look happy on the field and look like theyre enjoining themselves playing their off the cuff football and bringing us supporters lots of enjoyment.

It's supposed to be an amateur sport after all."
This notion that Kerry are the sole purveyors of "Off the cuff" football is a fanciful myth, Kingdom. No team plays "off the cuff football anymore. That's a thing of the past and well you know it. I do believe, like may others, that the likes of Connolly, Jack Mc, Stephen Cluxton, James McCarthy, Mick Fitz, Brian Fenton, Howard, Small, Scully, Kilkenny et al were finer natural footballers than their counterparts in the Kerry teams they played against.
Kerry have lacked lacked decent natural defenders and for quite a while they were very dependent on the talents of Clifford and O' Se. O' Beaglaioch, Crowley and Co. and his co-defenders are definitely tightening up at the back but none of your back 6 would be in the same class as James Mc, Small, Mick Fitz, when it comes to being born defenders.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1818 - 06/08/2021 15:01:13    2368258

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Replying To avonali:  "This notion that Kerry are the sole purveyors of "Off the cuff" football is a fanciful myth, Kingdom. No team plays "off the cuff football anymore. That's a thing of the past and well you know it. I do believe, like may others, that the likes of Connolly, Jack Mc, Stephen Cluxton, James McCarthy, Mick Fitz, Brian Fenton, Howard, Small, Scully, Kilkenny et al were finer natural footballers than their counterparts in the Kerry teams they played against.
Kerry have lacked lacked decent natural defenders and for quite a while they were very dependent on the talents of Clifford and O' Se. O' Beaglaioch, Crowley and Co. and his co-defenders are definitely tightening up at the back but none of your back 6 would be in the same class as James Mc, Small, Mick Fitz, when it comes to being born defenders."
Notions indeed!

lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 757 - 06/08/2021 15:26:47    2368265

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https://youtu.be/1fM3Jj34-4E
Davy Byrne, Rob McDaid, John Small, Jack McCaffrey, Eric Lowndes, Brian Fenton, Cormac Costello, Niall Scully, Conor McHugh, Emmet O'Conghaile, Paul Mannion, Ciaran Kilkenny (injured) and manager Dessie Farrell were all in the same under 21 team which beat Cavan in an all Ireland semi final by 1 point. If the same two teams played now, the Dubs would win by 51. If these two sets of players were evenly matched at age 21, why there is such a gap 5 years later would be an interesting study

On the Kildare game, I actually thought Kildare played relatively well. I thought they got a lot right. They defended the d excellently and weren't drawn out easily. I thought they were just a bit rash and also unsure what they were doing at times. You would need a lot of practice at a defensive system like that before you would get it right. Having said that for the Dubs to kick 20 points against it, I thought that was still very impressive

97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 195 - 06/08/2021 16:02:59    2368274

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