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Kildare Vs Dublin

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Replying To TheUsername:  "A combination of factors I think, that's experiential on the ground. We were very lucky, to have a group of players come along, some very talented and some who just exceptionally improved themselves, Bernard speaks very equalantly about it as Superstar syndrome, essentially hit young things don't alway succeed, but the lads who are never the super stars in fact often rejected are spurned on by that rejection, work twice as hard to develop and eventually over take superstars - we had a good few of those lads, Bernard himself, Fenton, MDM, O Gara, Macker, Bastick, Flynner, Philly and maybe even Cluxton - you wouldn't have picked anyone of those lads out at underage in fact many didn't always make that grade, but they fought for it, that created the culture.

We were then blessed with actual superstars breaking throuh with coming into that culture, Costello, Jack, Kilkenny, Con and Howard - you could tell from outer space we're going to make it. Lads like John Small, Murch, Mannion were maybes but came into the above culture.

The whole thing gloriously came together, we had 25 of pure quality a perfect balance of winning culture, high standards youth, expierence, hard work and fight, it was fierce and player driven. It brought them all to new heights.

Structurally, I think a big contribution was Gavin particularly took club politics out of the County team, Giller was getting there but he was very much a Vincent's man and that showed. Historically the Dublin Senior team was bar a few excretions mostly made up of a Northside strongholds. Crokes for example we're winning club All Ireland in the 90s and very few of their players got a crack at Dublin, the ones that did would tell you there faces never fit. There was always that divide, that changed over this era, the two half of the Liffey came together to form one Dublin that was significant.

I'd also acknowledge funding helped, not the GDF, but the commercial funding. Dublin want for nothing but the County team pays for itself through commercial revenue, it's a juggernaut, I'd have no problem saying that. That allowed Dublin to always innovate and be at the cutting edge, leading the arms race in a way, now everyone's following.

Off the field a strategic plan was put in place at County level, not only that but it was project managed to implementation which maximised Dublin as an entity in synergy in terms of commercial potential, sporting excellence and development. We were very luck to have some captains of industry lend themselves to this and volunteer to assist Dublin GAA fulfil its potential. I mean Giller himself is no slouch on that score.

The huge criticism of course is GDF for the big population, to be honest I'm not sure that's a wise investment. Participation rates haven't increased significantly since Kelly started his plan. The Dubs success saved his blushes in many ways. But I think we are returning to mean now, what we have achieved isn't sustainable in the long term, as it's a combination of so many vairbles all going right at the same time for a short period. I see the regression.

I don't really care what other counties do or have done, we're Dublin, we're trail blazers, we do it our own way, it's our way."
And yer team are as boring to watch as your posts are to read, night night sleepy time.

zzzz

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13945 - 04/08/2021 22:12:35    2367787

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Replying To brianb:  "Lets wait and see how Dublin play against Mayo. I fully expect to see the same patient build up and probing around the edges."
I've no doubt there will be some of that by both sides at times but there won't be as much as Mayo will not be conceding the game b4 it starts.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 04/08/2021 22:18:49    2367790

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Replying To brianb:  "Perhaps it is a natural cycle and the rich talent coming through Dublin is a golden generation. That seems to be the main argument. Pretty impressive generation that is able to win 16/17 Leinster titles. When you look at the Dublin team who won 5 in a row; they had 8 survivors in the starting line-up from the first one. Compare that to Kerry's team where there were 13 players common to their first and started in the 5-in-a-row game. To me that suggests something else is going on to tip the scales towards the Dubs. I do believe that in recent years the GAA have started to take steps to readdressing that balance.

Having said that - I think the one thing we'd agree on with this issue is that no amount of money will put the ball over the bar."
Comparing 70s/80s to the present era is apples and oranges. The Dublin team of the 70s that played in 6 finals in a row would also have a much smaller turnover of players. Panels are much more fluid now in all counties and it's a full panel game. Back in those days rarely was a sub used bar injury, a lot of games only one or two subs and often none.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 04/08/2021 22:26:09    2367792

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Are you not disappointed though Kildare didn't have a go. They turned up to keep the score down, it was 14 men behind the ball Vs 9/10 offensive players.

I honestly believe Dublin are bored of games like this, i know its a big game for Kildare and Kildare are only interested in Kildare and not to get a hiding. But why would Dublin bother really getting out of second gear, getting injured, when they are far front, have an eye on Semi and the opportunity to conserve energy for a game in two weeks.

To turn your point on its head, i think the blancket and keep the score down approach shows a lack of ambition, fight competitiveness and ultimately breeds a losing mentality, will these group of players ever win anything when the subliminal message to them is you are not good enough to compete with the top teams and keep the score down. I watched the game back last night and listened to O Connor before the game, he basically said before the game they are happy to have got that far, promotion, Leinster final, they were defeated before the game and just didnt want to be humiliated. With that attitude Kildare will never compete.

I think its embarrassing for the opposition, when Dublin do the front press, it means you are playing fear ball, showing no ambition and just have 14 men behind the ball. Honestly Dublin dont deserve that respect any more and Dan Flynn was cutting the backline to ribbons, Kildares approach and defeatist attitude undermined competition in the game. You can talk about being frustrated by Dublin approach, but we are sick to the back teeth of watching teams come to Croke Park and beaten before they start and just play defeatist fear ball, its awful and to be honest demining for the county in question. Sad thing is Kildare will be delighted with a 6 point loss, "gap is closing" what not.

At least Meath had us rattled, they are great example, Kildare never took that initiative the way Meath did at least they went down with their boots on and rattled us, that breeds respect."
From a neutrals point of view your posts border on being condescending and belittling, everyone is born with respect, knowing when and where to apply it is the key. ETC, ETC, ETC.
NB Sport not included.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2495 - 05/08/2021 09:26:00    2367838

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Replying To supersub15:  "From a neutrals point of view your posts border on being condescending and belittling, everyone is born with respect, knowing when and where to apply it is the key. ETC, ETC, ETC.
NB Sport not included."
Not my intention but you have to accept that perception is a subjective experience.

Apologies if that how my post comes across, again not my intention.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4188 - 05/08/2021 10:08:32    2367852

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Replying To TheUsername:  "A combination of factors I think, that's experiential on the ground. We were very lucky, to have a group of players come along, some very talented and some who just exceptionally improved themselves, Bernard speaks very equalantly about it as Superstar syndrome, essentially hit young things don't alway succeed, but the lads who are never the super stars in fact often rejected are spurned on by that rejection, work twice as hard to develop and eventually over take superstars - we had a good few of those lads, Bernard himself, Fenton, MDM, O Gara, Macker, Bastick, Flynner, Philly and maybe even Cluxton - you wouldn't have picked anyone of those lads out at underage in fact many didn't always make that grade, but they fought for it, that created the culture.

We were then blessed with actual superstars breaking throuh with coming into that culture, Costello, Jack, Kilkenny, Con and Howard - you could tell from outer space we're going to make it. Lads like John Small, Murch, Mannion were maybes but came into the above culture.

The whole thing gloriously came together, we had 25 of pure quality a perfect balance of winning culture, high standards youth, expierence, hard work and fight, it was fierce and player driven. It brought them all to new heights.

Structurally, I think a big contribution was Gavin particularly took club politics out of the County team, Giller was getting there but he was very much a Vincent's man and that showed. Historically the Dublin Senior team was bar a few excretions mostly made up of a Northside strongholds. Crokes for example we're winning club All Ireland in the 90s and very few of their players got a crack at Dublin, the ones that did would tell you there faces never fit. There was always that divide, that changed over this era, the two half of the Liffey came together to form one Dublin that was significant.

I'd also acknowledge funding helped, not the GDF, but the commercial funding. Dublin want for nothing but the County team pays for itself through commercial revenue, it's a juggernaut, I'd have no problem saying that. That allowed Dublin to always innovate and be at the cutting edge, leading the arms race in a way, now everyone's following.

Off the field a strategic plan was put in place at County level, not only that but it was project managed to implementation which maximised Dublin as an entity in synergy in terms of commercial potential, sporting excellence and development. We were very luck to have some captains of industry lend themselves to this and volunteer to assist Dublin GAA fulfil its potential. I mean Giller himself is no slouch on that score.

The huge criticism of course is GDF for the big population, to be honest I'm not sure that's a wise investment. Participation rates haven't increased significantly since Kelly started his plan. The Dubs success saved his blushes in many ways. But I think we are returning to mean now, what we have achieved isn't sustainable in the long term, as it's a combination of so many vairbles all going right at the same time for a short period. I see the regression.

I don't really care what other counties do or have done, we're Dublin, we're trail blazers, we do it our own way, it's our way."
I don't think luck comes into it. Dublin have had a great group of players come through together consistently over a period of 15 years following a massive injection of cash into the underage structures. The plan worked and saved football in the capital but has been very detrimental to the rest of Leinster.

There's nothing to be gained by discussing the past over and back. I see the additional funding Dublin have been given as the extra bit that tipped the balance you think providing funding for full time coaching has nothing to do with subsequent success that the natural advantages of being the capital and a big city is all that mattered.

What I will say is that I can look around the local clubs here in Kildare and see great work being done - but over the past 20 years in general the GAA clubs haven't really grown and may actually have shrunk but there's been a massive growth in Rugby locally. 16/17 Leinster championships is the canary in the coal mine for football. The playing field needs to be level.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 11:17:51    2367875

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Comparing 70s/80s to the present era is apples and oranges. The Dublin team of the 70s that played in 6 finals in a row would also have a much smaller turnover of players. Panels are much more fluid now in all counties and it's a full panel game. Back in those days rarely was a sub used bar injury, a lot of games only one or two subs and often none."
. . . exactly; The Dublin success is not purely down to a golden generation but a conveyer belt of talent coming through coincidentally since the GAA started pumping cash in

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 11:20:21    2367877

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Replying To brianb:  ". . . exactly; The Dublin success is not purely down to a golden generation but a conveyer belt of talent coming through coincidentally since the GAA started pumping cash in"
Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse but it should be clear that county teams are turning over playing personnel at a much faster rate this century than last e.g Kerry team 2004 to 2009, 4 titles, only 8 from 2004 started in 2009 and the next most successful team of the first decade of this century Tyrone had only 5 starters in 2008 from their first of three wins in 2003. So not unique to the Dubs.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 05/08/2021 12:58:58    2367919

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Replying To brianb:  "I don't think luck comes into it. Dublin have had a great group of players come through together consistently over a period of 15 years following a massive injection of cash into the underage structures. The plan worked and saved football in the capital but has been very detrimental to the rest of Leinster.

There's nothing to be gained by discussing the past over and back. I see the additional funding Dublin have been given as the extra bit that tipped the balance you think providing funding for full time coaching has nothing to do with subsequent success that the natural advantages of being the capital and a big city is all that mattered.

What I will say is that I can look around the local clubs here in Kildare and see great work being done - but over the past 20 years in general the GAA clubs haven't really grown and may actually have shrunk but there's been a massive growth in Rugby locally. 16/17 Leinster championships is the canary in the coal mine for football. The playing field needs to be level."
Historically Dublin was funded similarly to Kildare and Meath and had to cut its cloth accordingly, despite having to make similar go further. Id make absolutely no apologies for recognition of funding for a huge population and those children being introduced to Gaelic games through schools and programmes in an urban setting, as i said though id be critical of the model and penetration in terms of participation. Kildare per head of population are still receiving far more in GDF then Dublin. significantly more so since the East Leinster project. There are also different models, for example half the GDO and GDA are funded by the clubs, we both know this isnt the case in Kildare........

Im not sure im wholly on board with your take on growth in Kildare, i was out in Johnstown Bridge recently with lads who were and are involved in the development of the club out there in relative recent years, terffic work being done and look how its bore fruit for the county team, Hurleys, Flynns etc. Johnstown Bridge is tiny, when you comapre it to say Kilcock, Maynooth and Leixlip in North Kildare, wonderful work has been done out there - just one example. Kildare are at a strategic advantage to many of the perceived benefits Dublin have and certain compared to counties from other provinces. The comparison to Mayo is often made in terms of profile.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4188 - 05/08/2021 13:06:23    2367926

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse but it should be clear that county teams are turning over playing personnel at a much faster rate this century than last e.g Kerry team 2004 to 2009, 4 titles, only 8 from 2004 started in 2009 and the next most successful team of the first decade of this century Tyrone had only 5 starters in 2008 from their first of three wins in 2003. So not unique to the Dubs."
Nobody in Kerry or Tyrone were claiming they had a Golden Generation in the early 2000's. A lot of Dublin supporters have. All teams these days have a lot more movement in and out of panels than in the past. To me that shows Dublin's success is based on a conveyor belt of talent coming through rather than a golden generation.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 14:44:37    2367954

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Historically Dublin was funded similarly to Kildare and Meath and had to cut its cloth accordingly, despite having to make similar go further. Id make absolutely no apologies for recognition of funding for a huge population and those children being introduced to Gaelic games through schools and programmes in an urban setting, as i said though id be critical of the model and penetration in terms of participation. Kildare per head of population are still receiving far more in GDF then Dublin. significantly more so since the East Leinster project. There are also different models, for example half the GDO and GDA are funded by the clubs, we both know this isnt the case in Kildare........

Im not sure im wholly on board with your take on growth in Kildare, i was out in Johnstown Bridge recently with lads who were and are involved in the development of the club out there in relative recent years, terffic work being done and look how its bore fruit for the county team, Hurleys, Flynns etc. Johnstown Bridge is tiny, when you comapre it to say Kilcock, Maynooth and Leixlip in North Kildare, wonderful work has been done out there - just one example. Kildare are at a strategic advantage to many of the perceived benefits Dublin have and certain compared to counties from other provinces. The comparison to Mayo is often made in terms of profile."
You're right on the Kildare clubs not always pulling their weight; I know of one club in particular who turned down the offer of a shared coach due to have to come up with 1/3 of the funding. We can be our own worst enemy at times.

But don't get me wrong - there is wonderful work still being done around the county in many clubs but I don't think its moved on much in the past 20 years. When I compare that to the strides being taken in Rugby clubs it has me a bit worried for Kildare GAA. As a county we have produced a lot more Irish International Rugby players recently than All Star footballers.

We and counties like Kildare need support - the same support that has been given to Dublin for 20 years. That is now starting to come through in the past few years.

I hope this Kildare team will breakthrough to be counted as All Ireland contenders again. There's certainly the talent in there to reach the level Dublin are playing at.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 15:02:31    2367968

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Replying To brianb:  "Nobody in Kerry or Tyrone were claiming they had a Golden Generation in the early 2000's. A lot of Dublin supporters have. All teams these days have a lot more movement in and out of panels than in the past. To me that shows Dublin's success is based on a conveyor belt of talent coming through rather than a golden generation."
Fair enough, call it what suits you, conveyor belt or golden generation, the point is the turnover of players on the Dublin 6 in a row team is broadly similar to that of multiple winning teams of recent years. Comparing the current Dublin team, as you did to a team that came together over 40 yrs ago, to make a point is not valid, too much has changed within and outside the game.
Considering the statistical acceptance that a generation includes those born within 25 years of each other I do believe probably all the Dublin players in the 6 in a row fit the bill!

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 05/08/2021 15:05:50    2367971

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Fair enough, call it what suits you, conveyor belt or golden generation, the point is the turnover of players on the Dublin 6 in a row team is broadly similar to that of multiple winning teams of recent years. Comparing the current Dublin team, as you did to a team that came together over 40 yrs ago, to make a point is not valid, too much has changed within and outside the game.
Considering the statistical acceptance that a generation includes those born within 25 years of each other I do believe probably all the Dublin players in the 6 in a row fit the bill!"
I feel its a valid point to make when the discussion is around how Dublin have managed to put 16/17 Leinster titles back to back. Its not down to one group of very talented players.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 15:36:56    2367980

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Replying To brianb:  "Nobody in Kerry or Tyrone were claiming they had a Golden Generation in the early 2000's. A lot of Dublin supporters have. All teams these days have a lot more movement in and out of panels than in the past. To me that shows Dublin's success is based on a conveyor belt of talent coming through rather than a golden generation."
I'm pretty sure every Kerry and Tyrone fan sang that from the rooftops... sure weren't they both the best team of the 00's?

TBF i think the point of comparing this period of Dublin success to Kerry's 70's and 80's team is a bit off track. That Kerry team were together from mainly being around from minor upwards and were a collectively brilliant team. The bones of the Dublin success was based around guys who were there from 2010 and before in some cases and the older guys rolled off over time and were supplemented by younger guys. But how many of the current and former squad have 6 plus all irelands in their back pockets either as starters or subs.

Cluxton, Fitzsimons, McMahon, McCarthy, MDMA, Bastick, Daly, Rock, Mcmenamon, Kilkenny and others.

The success of the senior team inspired the guys coming through which didn't happen the kerry team in the 80's. Kerry i think lost a lot of players as Micko stuck almost religiously to the same squad for 12/13 years and they then went into a lull from 86 to 97. Jim Gavin infused the team with younger players but still kept the older players involved so it's to his credit that tyhey were set up for continued success as he integrated lads over time and then they became starters. Micko didn't do that and Kerry were in limbo for almost a decade.

Yes i see the point you make about a conveyor belt, but success breeds success. In Meath we won in 87/88 and then won minor's/U21's in 90,92 and 93 which formed the backbone of teams winning all irelands in 96 and 99. Kerry missed a trick in the 80's, Dublin haven't.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1422 - 05/08/2021 16:01:44    2367998

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Replying To brianb:  "I feel its a valid point to make when the discussion is around how Dublin have managed to put 16/17 Leinster titles back to back. Its not down to one group of very talented players."
Moving the goalposts Brian, gone from generation to group. You're dead right, one group of players could not win 16 Leinsters but one generation of players could and did!

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 05/08/2021 16:44:52    2368016

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Replying To brian:  "I'm pretty sure every Kerry and Tyrone fan sang that from the rooftops... sure weren't they both the best team of the 00's?

TBF i think the point of comparing this period of Dublin success to Kerry's 70's and 80's team is a bit off track. That Kerry team were together from mainly being around from minor upwards and were a collectively brilliant team. The bones of the Dublin success was based around guys who were there from 2010 and before in some cases and the older guys rolled off over time and were supplemented by younger guys. But how many of the current and former squad have 6 plus all irelands in their back pockets either as starters or subs.

Cluxton, Fitzsimons, McMahon, McCarthy, MDMA, Bastick, Daly, Rock, Mcmenamon, Kilkenny and others.

The success of the senior team inspired the guys coming through which didn't happen the kerry team in the 80's. Kerry i think lost a lot of players as Micko stuck almost religiously to the same squad for 12/13 years and they then went into a lull from 86 to 97. Jim Gavin infused the team with younger players but still kept the older players involved so it's to his credit that tyhey were set up for continued success as he integrated lads over time and then they became starters. Micko didn't do that and Kerry were in limbo for almost a decade.

Yes i see the point you make about a conveyor belt, but success breeds success. In Meath we won in 87/88 and then won minor's/U21's in 90,92 and 93 which formed the backbone of teams winning all irelands in 96 and 99. Kerry missed a trick in the 80's, Dublin haven't."
I agree with pretty much everything you said there and 2/3 years ago I would have come to the same conclusion. That's before the likes of the Brogan, Connolly or Flynn were each arguably replaced by as good or better.

I think this is structural and is going to continue on unless something changes. There another new Dublin team emerging there with the likes of Murchan and the Basquels ready to step up.

There is a competitiveness problem at the top end of the football championship. I'm not sure how many Leinster / All Ireland titles in a row Dublin need to win before everyone will agree that is a big problem.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 21:11:53    2368111

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Moving the goalposts Brian, gone from generation to group. You're dead right, one group of players could not win 16 Leinsters but one generation of players could and did!"
According to you a generation is 25 years - so maybe a group is a better description for you; the point remains Dublin haven't had a single golden generation/group but an ever evolving team of players moving though their structures.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 119 - 05/08/2021 21:19:11    2368115

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Replying To brianb:  "According to you a generation is 25 years - so maybe a group is a better description for you; the point remains Dublin haven't had a single golden generation/group but an ever evolving team of players moving though their structures."
So you don't like "golden generation" I don't mind that. You say "group" is a better description for "me", I don't mind that either. You describe Dublin as a "conveyer belt" difficult mental image but I'm happy with that. But mostly I'm happy with the wonderful Dublin victories that have brightened up my days in 63, 74, 76, 77, 83, 95, 2011, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. Wasn't at them all but I was witness to all these groups, teams and generations of players that brought glory to Dublin, Slán go fóill agus go mbeidh an Craobh ag Cill Dara 'sna blianta le teacht.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 05/08/2021 22:34:21    2368148

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Replying To brianb:  "According to you a generation is 25 years - so maybe a group is a better description for you; the point remains Dublin haven't had a single golden generation/group but an ever evolving team of players moving though their structures."
Iv said it on here in the past that dublin are producing incredible athletes on an industrial scale, athletes that are primed and programed and ready to slot straight into the dublin "system" to follow the "process".

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13945 - 06/08/2021 10:45:22    2368195

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Replying To brian:  "I'm pretty sure every Kerry and Tyrone fan sang that from the rooftops... sure weren't they both the best team of the 00's?

TBF i think the point of comparing this period of Dublin success to Kerry's 70's and 80's team is a bit off track. That Kerry team were together from mainly being around from minor upwards and were a collectively brilliant team. The bones of the Dublin success was based around guys who were there from 2010 and before in some cases and the older guys rolled off over time and were supplemented by younger guys. But how many of the current and former squad have 6 plus all irelands in their back pockets either as starters or subs.

Cluxton, Fitzsimons, McMahon, McCarthy, MDMA, Bastick, Daly, Rock, Mcmenamon, Kilkenny and others.

The success of the senior team inspired the guys coming through which didn't happen the kerry team in the 80's. Kerry i think lost a lot of players as Micko stuck almost religiously to the same squad for 12/13 years and they then went into a lull from 86 to 97. Jim Gavin infused the team with younger players but still kept the older players involved so it's to his credit that tyhey were set up for continued success as he integrated lads over time and then they became starters. Micko didn't do that and Kerry were in limbo for almost a decade.

Yes i see the point you make about a conveyor belt, but success breeds success. In Meath we won in 87/88 and then won minor's/U21's in 90,92 and 93 which formed the backbone of teams winning all irelands in 96 and 99. Kerry missed a trick in the 80's, Dublin haven't."
Good point. Mind you he did bring Ambrose O'Donovan in in 1984 and he was made captain straight away.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1819 - 06/08/2021 10:53:55    2368197

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