Cavan Forum

Time For Mattie To Move On?

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "Seanie was played as a playmaker because hes one of the very few players that has any sort of football brain. The others run into tackles and lose the ball and lack ability to spot a pass. This isn't on the manager, the players are responsible on the pitch, its up to them to carry out the managers tactics."
Surely part of the managers job is to identify weaknesses (ie carrying the ball into the tackle and getting turned over), then address this in training sessions by creating drills to help the players improve their decision making in game situations.

It's true some players will have better footballing brains and abilities but with the proper coaching the others can and will improve.

Reasons for Mattie to stay:
- He got us promoted back to Div 1

Reasons to go:
- Bad decision making on the line.
- Not addressing weaknesses in training.
- Not getting best players in county to commit.
- Tipperary & Cork are the highest ranked teams we have beaten in the last year.
- When the chips were down - he reverted to the last managers tactics - hoping the players muscle memory would pull them through.
- Defending by shear numbers with no transition to attack.

I'd love a manager that has real passion in his voice - I'm thinking the likes of Sean Boylan, Liam Griffin, Brian Cody, Pete McGrath - I'm not suggesting these people - maybe a younger version of them is needed! I always love listening to them talk about the game - I can only imagine how they would get a dressing room wound up before a game.

I think we need someone from outside the county and a bit of a reputation in the game - James McCarten, Jack O'Connor, James Horan. Someone who could have the effect Mick O'Dwyer had in Kildare/Laois and Paudi had in Westmeath.

Of course whoever comes in needs to know that there is expectation in the county from the supporters (afterall football is all we have!!) - I often look at other counties forums over the summer and we here in Cavan nearly always have the most active board (apart from the main forum on the Home page).

There's a lot of negative posts on our forum about the state of Cavan football but there's a hell of a lot of counties would like to be in our position - been a Div 1/2 team for past number of years.

radiotower (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 06/07/2018 15:48:20    2119159

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "Seanie was played as a playmaker because hes one of the very few players that has any sort of football brain. The others run into tackles and lose the ball and lack ability to spot a pass. This isn't on the manager, the players are responsible on the pitch, its up to them to carry out the managers tactics."
I agree he was supposed to be a playmaker back in his own 45 however blame does not lay with SJ you have to question not the management but the players who failed to run on and give him an option. Not once did they do this. How many times was CM on the half way line and made no effort to run on or even our wing half's it was crazy. I thought this would have been addressed but nothing at half time.
Everyone need to be sat down in front of a selected board to answer these questions. Management and players this way one will know if it's players calling the shots or management not having a clue.
I don't mean a board of officers from the CB board but selected from clubs that will return with the truth. Then and only then will everyone know who was at fault.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 06/07/2018 15:57:20    2119164

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Replying To radiotower:  "Surely part of the managers job is to identify weaknesses (ie carrying the ball into the tackle and getting turned over), then address this in training sessions by creating drills to help the players improve their decision making in game situations.

It's true some players will have better footballing brains and abilities but with the proper coaching the others can and will improve.

Reasons for Mattie to stay:
- He got us promoted back to Div 1

Reasons to go:
- Bad decision making on the line.
- Not addressing weaknesses in training.
- Not getting best players in county to commit.
- Tipperary & Cork are the highest ranked teams we have beaten in the last year.
- When the chips were down - he reverted to the last managers tactics - hoping the players muscle memory would pull them through.
- Defending by shear numbers with no transition to attack.

I'd love a manager that has real passion in his voice - I'm thinking the likes of Sean Boylan, Liam Griffin, Brian Cody, Pete McGrath - I'm not suggesting these people - maybe a younger version of them is needed! I always love listening to them talk about the game - I can only imagine how they would get a dressing room wound up before a game.

I think we need someone from outside the county and a bit of a reputation in the game - James McCarten, Jack O'Connor, James Horan. Someone who could have the effect Mick O'Dwyer had in Kildare/Laois and Paudi had in Westmeath.

Of course whoever comes in needs to know that there is expectation in the county from the supporters (afterall football is all we have!!) - I often look at other counties forums over the summer and we here in Cavan nearly always have the most active board (apart from the main forum on the Home page).

There's a lot of negative posts on our forum about the state of Cavan football but there's a hell of a lot of counties would like to be in our position - been a Div 1/2 team for past number of years."
What Counties would like to be in our position? league position means nothing to the big teams, its championship that matters and for the life of me, I cant think of any County who would envy any of our championship positions over the last decade or more.

Your either silly or ignorant if you cant see the way Cavan Football has declined and continues to do so. Big clubs in Cavan now amalgamating at most underage levels because they cant field teams, if thats not a warning sign for the County Board, it will be too late to do anything in a few years.

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 06/07/2018 18:07:33    2119179

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Replying To Inaroundehouse:  "Playing Johnston between the 2 45s giving 5 yr kick passes across the park because there was no one up front CAN be blamed on management .
As CAN putting on a big full forward at half time and failing to kick the ball into him. That's a management blame too.
That's 2 major no no's that's happened umpteen times this year. In saying that players need to be able to think on their feet too. Something that I never saw Cavan players do.
You won't win games without forwards inside their own 45. And you certainly won't win them if you don't take a shot at the posts hence the turnover in the tackle so often.
You won't walk the ball into the net against teams like Tyrone. You might against Wicklow .
Cork WILL beat Tyrone yet they were never out of 2nd gear against us.
That's how tactically inept we are.
Sad thing is there not a Manager in the county capable of bringing us forward.
Yes we have so good individual players both on the panel and not on it.
But they are individuals , not able to gel together as a team. It's every man for himself. That's not how football works anymore"
"Cork WILL beat Tyrone yet they were never out of 2nd gear against us.
That's how tactically inept we are."

Right...... Maybe Cork didn't read the script.
Oooopps.....

shamrock10 (Cavan) - Posts: 41 - 08/07/2018 08:09:41    2119502

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Tyrone were in second gear against Cavan as they have beaten Cavan regularly and probably knew what they had to do. They look liked a team pacing themselves for the super 8s. Playing week after week.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 08/07/2018 11:12:35    2119542

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Lets keep a little perspective, we lost to 3 teams between the League and Championship this year. All three teams made it to the super 8's. The only two teams in next year's Division 2 of the League that i would not be confident against would be Kildare and Donegal, I am pretty sure we would beat most of the rest. We are a top 12 team, unfortunately at the wrong end of the scale and not currently close enough to challenge for an Ulster title. Ulster may not produce the All Ireland winners this year but if things go as expected in Navan today it will produce 3 teams who will make it to the Super 8's.

kildare blue (Cavan) - Posts: 578 - 08/07/2018 11:25:02    2119544

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Replying To shamrock10:  ""Cork WILL beat Tyrone yet they were never out of 2nd gear against us.
That's how tactically inept we are."

Right...... Maybe Cork didn't read the script.
Oooopps....."
Cork were never going to beat Tyrone and I don't know who thought they would. Cork like Cavan don't have a plan especially when it comes to playing the boring game that Ulster teams are playing this mass defensive s***E. Now however they are in the last 8 they will be found wanting thats for sure. If you were in Brewster you would have seen how bad Tyrone were and how Cavan could not move the ball forward. It's not because Tyrone stopped Cavan but that Cavan seem to think it's fine playing lateral and backward football. I don't blame the players for this or should I for I am sure they can see that the management we have are inept so If McVeety took the bull by the horns and decided a more forward thinking type game there was a very good chance Cavan could have turned over this very poor Tyrone team.
Cork have won Sam six times and Cavan 5 so not much difference between them.
The bookies had it spot on, they seldom get it wrong.
Roscommon 8/13
Tyrone 1/3
Kildare 4/9

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 08/07/2018 11:49:42    2119554

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "Cork were never going to beat Tyrone and I don't know who thought they would. Cork like Cavan don't have a plan especially when it comes to playing the boring game that Ulster teams are playing this mass defensive s***E. Now however they are in the last 8 they will be found wanting thats for sure. If you were in Brewster you would have seen how bad Tyrone were and how Cavan could not move the ball forward. It's not because Tyrone stopped Cavan but that Cavan seem to think it's fine playing lateral and backward football. I don't blame the players for this or should I for I am sure they can see that the management we have are inept so If McVeety took the bull by the horns and decided a more forward thinking type game there was a very good chance Cavan could have turned over this very poor Tyrone team.
Cork have won Sam six times and Cavan 5 so not much difference between them.
The bookies had it spot on, they seldom get it wrong.
Roscommon 8/13
Tyrone 1/3
Kildare 4/9"
Yeah we're not in the worst place to be fair but the frustration is understandable from supporters. Ulster medals are a long way off but if we don't take little steps forward now then we'll never get there. I thought we could have done a bit better this year but team selections at times would leave you scratching your head. Disappointed we didn't see more of C O'Reilly this summer. Looks to have great potential but that won't develop from the bench and he's probably been set back a bit now. Mattie's team sheets and tactics look very scatter gun to me and it looks more like hoping to hit on a formula more than any sort of master plan. Not being afraid to make big calls is one thing but at some stage you have to back yourself and go with some sort of plan to develop consistency. If he's constantly second guessing himself then I don't see why players would have any confidence in him. We also need to get some players back in to rejoin the panel but again that will be a bit harder if there's no confidence in the manager. Players will talk among themselves and that includes players not currently on the panel who will be well aware of the lay of the land.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 08/07/2018 13:46:23    2119594

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Perspective is indeed warranted.

Some may believe that Mattie deserves a third season because we got promoted back to division 1. To those people I say, look at how division 2 teams fared in this years championship. Most of them shipped hidings of 8 points plus (ourselves included). Cork in fact shipped two hidings. It was a desperate weak division 2.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 08/07/2018 14:10:22    2119600

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Top 12 does't really mean anything. There is a lot of average teams after the top 3 or 4. Down should probaly have beaten Cavan twice this year ,and they aren't 'Top 12'.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 08/07/2018 15:04:43    2119617

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Yeah we're not in the worst place to be fair but the frustration is understandable from supporters. Ulster medals are a long way off but if we don't take little steps forward now then we'll never get there. I thought we could have done a bit better this year but team selections at times would leave you scratching your head. Disappointed we didn't see more of C O'Reilly this summer. Looks to have great potential but that won't develop from the bench and he's probably been set back a bit now. Mattie's team sheets and tactics look very scatter gun to me and it looks more like hoping to hit on a formula more than any sort of master plan. Not being afraid to make big calls is one thing but at some stage you have to back yourself and go with some sort of plan to develop consistency. If he's constantly second guessing himself then I don't see why players would have any confidence in him. We also need to get some players back in to rejoin the panel but again that will be a bit harder if there's no confidence in the manager. Players will talk among themselves and that includes players not currently on the panel who will be well aware of the lay of the land."
I am not sure C O'Reilly is ready yet for the big time yet. I watched him a few times and he finds it hard to take a knock from a strong back. He will however in time be a stronger player and will for sure with the right management that will use him wisely and nurture his natural talent. I have to say we have too many players that sadly will not make the grade. I watched the Tyrone match and the Down match and several others and my observations of these matches is that Mattie makes no substitutions these appear to me to be made by those doing stats and Lorcan Martin from what I can see works to their instructions. I am fine with stats ect but they should have no place during a game. I noticed two individuals and from my observations were very disappointing. I saw one of the so called coaches going up to them for instructions. If the manager cannot see whats wrong well then he is in the wrong place or job.
The late Joe McCarthy was responsible in a huge way for Cavan winning the U21 titles but he never gets the praise for his ability to read a game. Sadly we don't have one person in Cavan today that can read a game as he did.
Sadly if the management have no respect for the set up they are really well gone from Cavan.
Whats the old saying to get respect you must show respect it's that simple. I know having people that will break a gut for you that you are well on the way to being successful.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 08/07/2018 15:08:44    2119618

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "I am not sure C O'Reilly is ready yet for the big time yet. I watched him a few times and he finds it hard to take a knock from a strong back. He will however in time be a stronger player and will for sure with the right management that will use him wisely and nurture his natural talent. I have to say we have too many players that sadly will not make the grade. I watched the Tyrone match and the Down match and several others and my observations of these matches is that Mattie makes no substitutions these appear to me to be made by those doing stats and Lorcan Martin from what I can see works to their instructions. I am fine with stats ect but they should have no place during a game. I noticed two individuals and from my observations were very disappointing. I saw one of the so called coaches going up to them for instructions. If the manager cannot see whats wrong well then he is in the wrong place or job.
The late Joe McCarthy was responsible in a huge way for Cavan winning the U21 titles but he never gets the praise for his ability to read a game. Sadly we don't have one person in Cavan today that can read a game as he did.
Sadly if the management have no respect for the set up they are really well gone from Cavan.
Whats the old saying to get respect you must show respect it's that simple. I know having people that will break a gut for you that you are well on the way to being successful."
Of course C O'Reilly is raw but he looked our biggest outlet in the league and against Donegal. I cannot see what he done wrong to be relegated to the bench.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 08/07/2018 16:02:21    2119637

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Of course C O'Reilly is raw but he looked our biggest outlet in the league and against Donegal. I cannot see what he done wrong to be relegated to the bench."
He was taken out of the game easy Hartimes I expect thats reason why. Also if the management are playing all behind the 65 is there any point in half forwards and full forwards. for they will never get a ball should they stay forwards which they don't do.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 08/07/2018 17:54:17    2119708

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Replying To The Quiet Man:  "He was taken out of the game easy Hartimes I expect thats reason why. Also if the management are playing all behind the 65 is there any point in half forwards and full forwards. for they will never get a ball should they stay forwards which they don't do."
He scored 1-3 I think against Donegal and was taken off. Dropped after Wiclow game and made brief sub appearances thereafter. He's not going to be consistent at his age but he has talent and I think management should have shown some perseverance and maybe setup better to get more out of him. It's not as if we are spoiled for choice in this area.
I don't know, this year we seemed to go from system to system and back again at the drop of a hat. I don't know how that will develop confidence or consistency within the team going forward. League final was bizarre. I know it was a one off game and I wouldn't blame management for throwing caution to the wind. Lessons were learned and some tweaking in defense following up from our league performances could have set us up in better stead. But it looked like management lost all confidence in themselves and the team after that and the Donegal game and did a complete U-turn.
I can only imagine what the players are thinking. If management stay on till next year, again, God only knows how we will approach the league or what the panel may be. I hope they don't go ultra defensive, focusing more on half back/forward options instead of trying to develop on our inside play. Mackey and Johnston will be a year older if still involved so we could have a very very green forward unit. Some more experience and a vote of confidence to lads like O'Reilly would have been no harm at all this year.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 08/07/2018 19:22:53    2119749

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "He scored 1-3 I think against Donegal and was taken off. Dropped after Wiclow game and made brief sub appearances thereafter. He's not going to be consistent at his age but he has talent and I think management should have shown some perseverance and maybe setup better to get more out of him. It's not as if we are spoiled for choice in this area.
I don't know, this year we seemed to go from system to system and back again at the drop of a hat. I don't know how that will develop confidence or consistency within the team going forward. League final was bizarre. I know it was a one off game and I wouldn't blame management for throwing caution to the wind. Lessons were learned and some tweaking in defense following up from our league performances could have set us up in better stead. But it looked like management lost all confidence in themselves and the team after that and the Donegal game and did a complete U-turn.
I can only imagine what the players are thinking. If management stay on till next year, again, God only knows how we will approach the league or what the panel may be. I hope they don't go ultra defensive, focusing more on half back/forward options instead of trying to develop on our inside play. Mackey and Johnston will be a year older if still involved so we could have a very very green forward unit. Some more experience and a vote of confidence to lads like O'Reilly would have been no harm at all this year."
Hard to say this but this time next year I expect we will be in division 2 wondering how we are going to survive in that division. There are strong teams in Division 2 this coming year only two of them can get promoted and should we continue to play the S***E that has been played for the last 4 matches we sadly are in deep s**t and heading for division 3 so unless the management are moved on and a decent panel is formed we are going only one way. Look at Kildare and what a bit off passion can do for a team. Cian O'Neill is getting the best out of them. They will not win the All Ireland but they are in the super 8 where everyone wanted to be for next week.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 08/07/2018 20:34:57    2119777

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It clicked for kildare in the Mayo game. They had been on a slippery slope before that. They lost every game in the league and hammered by Carlow

They have serious pace and power. Daniel Flynn, Paul Cribbin, Paddy Brophy all had spells in the AFL which helped with their conditioning. Kevin Feely was a pro soccer player in England

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 08/07/2018 21:13:43    2119795

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What Counties would like to be in our position?
cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 293 - 06/07/2018 18:07:33

What I mean by others liking to be in our position, is that we should have an advantage over other counties when selecting a new manager.

A new manager should recognise that there is potential in Cavan - they have got promoted twice in 3 years under 2 different managers using at least 30 different players. There were some decent results while in Div 1. Remember its only 4 years ago we were Div 3 - Rome wasn't built in a day!!!

Add in the number of players who have had success at U-21, Minor and U-16 (Gerry Reilly cup) we should have managers knocking at our door looking to take us to the next level.

I think we need a manger that will get players to commit - go and talk to these players and try and convince them to come back into the fold. I'm not saying to beg players but a manager with an aura about him who can sell his vision for the team going forward. (Of course he'll have to back up the talk with results!)

radiotower (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 09/07/2018 10:20:28    2119898

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we thought Cavan had reached crossroads over the years but this is THE one. i see an awful lot of Donegal pre Mc Guinness in Cavan at the moment, not just the team but in everyone, the pride has gone out of the county, i don't say this lightly but as far as i can see not an awful lot of people were too worried about getting knocked out last week which is really sad. Cavan have a history and we all know it, but that's all it is, is history. its time we as a county started a new chapter rather than harping on to the good days and giving a Monaghan man a dig for having no all irelands..........
Anyway the culture is wrong and all it'll take is one group of lads to put the wagon straight on the road again. As for Mattie, he seems like a very decent, likeable man who clearly loves his football, but that doesn't say he should be in the job. he has won us promotion back to division one but in my opinion we're further back than when Terry left. or at the very least we're in the same position, as the saying goes if you're not moving forward you're moving backwards.
One the physical side of things they're is a large group of lads on the squad that aren't near big enough. The Donegal game was a big eye opener. Starting now there's a few lads that could do with putting on at least a stone to be anywhere up to physical standard of County football, some are only holding their own physically in club football.!!!
Next Cavan Co Board need to pull out all the stops to get a big name. Someone like Horan or Mc Guinness. It's vital we get someone who changes the mindset as i believe that is hands down the biggest issue at the moment

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 09/07/2018 13:11:19    2119979

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The problem with Cavan is not the manager, its not the tactics or the lack of planning, its not about strength, the problem is and has been for a very long time, the players. There simply isn't enough quality players in the County, and by quality, I mean, players with good footballing brains that can change change games, that make the difference in a split second. I'll point to the Tyrone game, and whilst Mcvitty is a good footballer, he lacks intelligence on the pitch, he's fit and he can run at defenders, but more often than not, he runs into tackles and makes a lot of errors, we were on top of Tyrone with 15 minutes left, and we got a kickable free, and rather than putting the ball down, he take's a quick free which was intercepted and rather than Cavan going a point up, we go a point down. This was the same in the Donegal game, players running into tackles, getting turned over, giving sill passes away. These are the little things that most of the top quality players do not do.
If I was the Cavan manager, I would be approaching many of the Gaels players to come into the panel. They have now gone unbeaten in the ACFL in 2017 and 2018, with the semi-final and final to come. The is a massive achievement by a brilliant team.

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 09/07/2018 13:52:09    2120000

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "The problem with Cavan is not the manager, its not the tactics or the lack of planning, its not about strength, the problem is and has been for a very long time, the players. There simply isn't enough quality players in the County, and by quality, I mean, players with good footballing brains that can change change games, that make the difference in a split second. I'll point to the Tyrone game, and whilst Mcvitty is a good footballer, he lacks intelligence on the pitch, he's fit and he can run at defenders, but more often than not, he runs into tackles and makes a lot of errors, we were on top of Tyrone with 15 minutes left, and we got a kickable free, and rather than putting the ball down, he take's a quick free which was intercepted and rather than Cavan going a point up, we go a point down. This was the same in the Donegal game, players running into tackles, getting turned over, giving sill passes away. These are the little things that most of the top quality players do not do.
If I was the Cavan manager, I would be approaching many of the Gaels players to come into the panel. They have now gone unbeaten in the ACFL in 2017 and 2018, with the semi-final and final to come. The is a massive achievement by a brilliant team."
I'd agree with most of what you said there.
Getting the Gaels players to commit would be a bigger job than finding a top class manager.
There are at least 6/7 Gaels players good enough for that panel. Fortune, 2 Murray's Maloney Derham, k Meehan, SJ, Dunnie, O Connor Paul Graham. Are all worth their place on the panel.

Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 09/07/2018 15:48:11    2120073

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