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Wexford Club Hurling Championship.

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Replying To WEX98:  "There's plenty of examples where everyone thinks it's a point and the referee thinks different.

The whole issue with over turning this result regardless if Fethard won or not is the potential for huge amounts of objections in the future over disputed scores.

It also seems that they just checked what umpire though and not check if it actually was a point.

Remember the Leinster football final in 2010, who other than the referee though that the Meath goal at the end should have disallowed?"
With due respect, you're still missing the point.

The difference is that you can't overrule a score if the referee has awarded it as a score and has recorded it as a score, or vice versa. So even if the ball went ten feet wide - if the referee decides it's a score anyway, and marks it down as a score, then there's no comeback from that. Or if the ball went cleanly over the bar but the referee decides it was wide, and doesn't mark it as a score, then there's no comeback from that either.

The Meath goal in 2010 is actually a very good example to illustrate this. It clearly shouldn't have been given as a goal, but the referee did give it as a goal, and recorded it as a goal. So, no comeback from it.

Where action can be taken is where the referee keeps an incorrect record of scores he's awarded. For example, if a video clearly shows a team scoring seven points (Fethard in extra time), but the referee only records six of them, and there's no evidence of him having ruled out the other one. That appears to be the basis on which the CCC made their decision.

As stated above, I've no idea what part of their process that Leinster found to be not in order. Possible it was a very, very technical point, maybe even down to something like how or when notice of the meeting was sent out.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 18/10/2024 10:55:32    2575604

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Replying To Viking66:  "If that's the case, that noone including the 2 teams "disputes the actual true score on the day was Fethard winning by a point after extra time", if Bunclody were any good they'd concede the game.
Bunclody appealed the CCCs decision, so obviously they genuinely believe that the game was drawn on the field of play?"
My earlier comment "Seems nobody disputes that the actual true score on the day was Fethard winning by a point after extra time" was probably badly put.

I don't know what grounds Bunclody actually appealed on. Possible that they're taking an approach that referee's scoreline was correct after all, and therefore they're not actually accepting that Fethard won by a point.

My comment was based on how by all accounts, even the Bunclody sideline on the day had a scoreline that showed Fethard winning by a point, and they were as surprised as anybody when referee declared it a draw instead and ordered that penalties be taken.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 18/10/2024 11:01:15    2575606

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Replying To countyman2022:  "They have both been asked on 2 separate occasions. Both have refused."
I think you are wrong. One team agreed last Wednesday.

Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 187 - 18/10/2024 11:11:34    2575610

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Replying To Fallout2:  "It's going back to CCC level it seems. Procedures weren't correctly followed. Not sure if the independent CCC means an outside county? Either way it seems it's back to stage 1 and can still go back to Leinster then onto DRA."
Surely the county board are an "independent" arbitrator? No end in sight here

Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 18/10/2024 11:24:04    2575614

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Replying To thefinest:  "1st time poster,

I would think at this stage it might be in Fethards best interest to let this one go, Everyone knows Fethard won, Everyone in Bunclody knows Fethard won but what we have here is a very stubborn ref who is never going to admit to being wrong, and Bunclody are also being stubborn but are within their rights to be so.

Fethard are currently trying to prepare for a co final in football, If theres a replay agreed, when can this be played - This week before the football? the following week after the football final? and if they were to beat Bunclody again (which I believe they could do so very easily without a whistle happy referee full of his own importance) they will be meeting a strong St James team that have been concentrating on hurling for the past month or more since they were knocked out of the Senior football championship.

so a fresh St James Team meets a fatigued Fethard which in turn could mean this fiasco was all for nothing resulting in Rathnure missing out on a run in Leinster (thats me presuming it will be Rathnure that comes through the other side)

Fethard have a good young team which have lost a number of their top players over the past few years to lads travelling and moving to Australia/ Dubai. ( i believe 8 off the starting team 3 years ago) some of which will be back over the next year or two. Fethard are well capable of getting back up to senior hurling but i think this could be Rathnures year to get back up. Essentially what im saying is i dont think Fethard or Bunclody are going to win it out"
Every club would object in this scenario, not let it go. Knockout championship game and the referee makes a monumental error with keeping the score in extra time. It cost them (or may have) a semi final place. That referee's clarification, which coincidentally found its way to the media, has made the situation far worse. A ref putting his hand up and admitting his error might have led both teams to a replay. But neither side is going to back down now Id say. Be interesting to see how the county board deal with the referee once the dust has settled...

Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 18/10/2024 11:33:30    2575617

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "My earlier comment "Seems nobody disputes that the actual true score on the day was Fethard winning by a point after extra time" was probably badly put.

I don't know what grounds Bunclody actually appealed on. Possible that they're taking an approach that referee's scoreline was correct after all, and therefore they're not actually accepting that Fethard won by a point.

My comment was based on how by all accounts, even the Bunclody sideline on the day had a scoreline that showed Fethard winning by a point, and they were as surprised as anybody when referee declared it a draw instead and ordered that penalties be taken."
Suspect Bunclody position is that the referees score on the day is final. Sure it has to be really, they don't have a leg to stand on otherwise. Everybody else has it that Fethard won in extra time. I think Bunclody should have conceded here a while ago in all honesty, I know it leaves a very sour taste but they were beaten.

Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 18/10/2024 11:47:38    2575621

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Replying To thefinest:  "1st time poster,

I would think at this stage it might be in Fethards best interest to let this one go, Everyone knows Fethard won, Everyone in Bunclody knows Fethard won but what we have here is a very stubborn ref who is never going to admit to being wrong, and Bunclody are also being stubborn but are within their rights to be so.

Fethard are currently trying to prepare for a co final in football, If theres a replay agreed, when can this be played - This week before the football? the following week after the football final? and if they were to beat Bunclody again (which I believe they could do so very easily without a whistle happy referee full of his own importance) they will be meeting a strong St James team that have been concentrating on hurling for the past month or more since they were knocked out of the Senior football championship.

so a fresh St James Team meets a fatigued Fethard which in turn could mean this fiasco was all for nothing resulting in Rathnure missing out on a run in Leinster (thats me presuming it will be Rathnure that comes through the other side)

Fethard have a good young team which have lost a number of their top players over the past few years to lads travelling and moving to Australia/ Dubai. ( i believe 8 off the starting team 3 years ago) some of which will be back over the next year or two. Fethard are well capable of getting back up to senior hurling but i think this could be Rathnures year to get back up. Essentially what im saying is i dont think Fethard or Bunclody are going to win it out"
Good first effort thefinest.

One thing to consider is if the way Bunclody are approaching it is from the point of view the ref would never have awarded the last free to "level" the game if he had the score already level. Did Oulart take the view that regardless of if the player was sent off they would not have won anyway. Its odd that in Oularts case the Ref admitted he made a mistake (it was pretty clear that he had to) and did not do his job - another sign of arrogance, and in this case the ref won't admit that he made a mistake - another sign of arrogance.
Everyone is afraid of the we don't have enough refs brigade but the refs that are doing these games and are sideline officials who want to prove their power are the ones who are generally on the harsh end of the abuse by players or supporters. From speaking to refs I don't believe there is much sympathy for these lads and the view is this is not helping get the right people becoming refs.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1900 - 18/10/2024 12:47:37    2575634

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Replying To Timbertony:  "Suspect Bunclody position is that the referees score on the day is final. Sure it has to be really, they don't have a leg to stand on otherwise. Everybody else has it that Fethard won in extra time. I think Bunclody should have conceded here a while ago in all honesty, I know it leaves a very sour taste but they were beaten."
But they were not beaten? Ref has down the won on pen's?

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 18/10/2024 13:38:35    2575649

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Just occurs to me that an added complication as regards when games might be played is that if Fethard win the Intermediate Football Final, they'll be due to play a Leinster quarter-final on Saturday November 9.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 18/10/2024 13:43:53    2575650

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Replying To zinny:  "Good first effort thefinest.

One thing to consider is if the way Bunclody are approaching it is from the point of view the ref would never have awarded the last free to "level" the game if he had the score already level. Did Oulart take the view that regardless of if the player was sent off they would not have won anyway. Its odd that in Oularts case the Ref admitted he made a mistake (it was pretty clear that he had to) and did not do his job - another sign of arrogance, and in this case the ref won't admit that he made a mistake - another sign of arrogance.
Everyone is afraid of the we don't have enough refs brigade but the refs that are doing these games and are sideline officials who want to prove their power are the ones who are generally on the harsh end of the abuse by players or supporters. From speaking to refs I don't believe there is much sympathy for these lads and the view is this is not helping get the right people becoming refs."
My understanding is that in the Oulart case, the ref didn't admit he'd made a mistake.

He incorrectly wrote down the name Ben Edwards after the second Floyd Murphy foul. And then in his report, he stuck to his guns and said "I booked A, B, Floyd Murphy, Ben Edwards, D and E " (or however many total bookings there actually were).

The video evidence of the second booking made its way onto social media, and looks inconclusive. It's a wide angle shot into gloomy conditions. It shows a yellow card being shown all right, with both Murphy and Edwards nearby. From a legal point of view, it's not absolutely 100% conclusive beyond reasonable doubt that Edwards wasn't being booked for dissent or similar. It's unlikely that was the case, but not impossible.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 18/10/2024 13:53:47    2575653

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Replying To Timbertony:  "Surely the county board are an "independent" arbitrator? No end in sight here"
Bunclody and Fethard both have representatives on the CB

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 18/10/2024 14:16:35    2575660

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Replying To countyman2022:  "But they were not beaten? Ref has down the won on pen's?"
According to everyone else, other officials, managements, stats men, spectators and journalists, and based on the scores given as scores on the day, Fethard won by a point before a penalty was struck.......

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 18/10/2024 14:39:40    2575668

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "My understanding is that in the Oulart case, the ref didn't admit he'd made a mistake.

He incorrectly wrote down the name Ben Edwards after the second Floyd Murphy foul. And then in his report, he stuck to his guns and said "I booked A, B, Floyd Murphy, Ben Edwards, D and E " (or however many total bookings there actually were).

The video evidence of the second booking made its way onto social media, and looks inconclusive. It's a wide angle shot into gloomy conditions. It shows a yellow card being shown all right, with both Murphy and Edwards nearby. From a legal point of view, it's not absolutely 100% conclusive beyond reasonable doubt that Edwards wasn't being booked for dissent or similar. It's unlikely that was the case, but not impossible."
And with the omerta that referees stick to better than mafioso we will never know the truth.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 18/10/2024 14:41:18    2575669

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Just occurs to me that an added complication as regards when games might be played is that if Fethard win the Intermediate Football Final, they'll be due to play a Leinster quarter-final on Saturday November 9."
I honestly hope that happens.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 18/10/2024 14:42:36    2575670

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "My understanding is that in the Oulart case, the ref didn't admit he'd made a mistake.

He incorrectly wrote down the name Ben Edwards after the second Floyd Murphy foul. And then in his report, he stuck to his guns and said "I booked A, B, Floyd Murphy, Ben Edwards, D and E " (or however many total bookings there actually were).

The video evidence of the second booking made its way onto social media, and looks inconclusive. It's a wide angle shot into gloomy conditions. It shows a yellow card being shown all right, with both Murphy and Edwards nearby. From a legal point of view, it's not absolutely 100% conclusive beyond reasonable doubt that Edwards wasn't being booked for dissent or similar. It's unlikely that was the case, but not impossible."
He did not take the name of the player which he is his duty to do, which he admitted to. Therefore he admitted his error. The cause of the error - not following the rules. A senior intercounty ref think he doesn't need to take the name of the player because he thought he know the lad.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1900 - 18/10/2024 15:11:58    2575679

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "With due respect, you're still missing the point.

The difference is that you can't overrule a score if the referee has awarded it as a score and has recorded it as a score, or vice versa. So even if the ball went ten feet wide - if the referee decides it's a score anyway, and marks it down as a score, then there's no comeback from that. Or if the ball went cleanly over the bar but the referee decides it was wide, and doesn't mark it as a score, then there's no comeback from that either.

The Meath goal in 2010 is actually a very good example to illustrate this. It clearly shouldn't have been given as a goal, but the referee did give it as a goal, and recorded it as a goal. So, no comeback from it.

Where action can be taken is where the referee keeps an incorrect record of scores he's awarded. For example, if a video clearly shows a team scoring seven points (Fethard in extra time), but the referee only records six of them, and there's no evidence of him having ruled out the other one. That appears to be the basis on which the CCC made their decision.

As stated above, I've no idea what part of their process that Leinster found to be not in order. Possible it was a very, very technical point, maybe even down to something like how or when notice of the meeting was sent out."
But as I understand it the referee is saying that he recorded the scores as level for each team. How does video evidence show what the referee recorded as a score.

Does anyone have the video for the game?

WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 18/10/2024 15:24:41    2575684

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Replying To Viking66:  "Bunclody and Fethard both have representatives on the CB"
Think this might be one of the times that "County Board" is just used as a general catch-all term, and causes confusion.

Something like this wouldn't be dealt with at a full meeting of the County Board with delegates from all clubs, including Fethard and Bunclody. It would instead be dealt with by a CCC Hearings Committee that's appointed by the management committee (Coiste Bainistí) of the County Board - i.e. the Chairman and the other officials who sit at the top table.

I presume that different people will now have to be appointed to a Hearings Committee, as the same people shouldn't deal with the case again. And by the way, "independent" here just means that the committee can't include anybody with a connection to either club. It doesn't mean that the committee must be made of people from outside Wexford.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 18/10/2024 15:27:57    2575687

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Replying To Viking66:  "According to everyone else, other officials, managements, stats men, spectators and journalists, and based on the scores given as scores on the day, Fethard won by a point before a penalty was struck......."
Yes, but its not in the refs report which is supposedly gospel..

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 18/10/2024 15:55:47    2575694

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Yes, but its not in the refs report which is supposedly gospel.."
Gospel. Interesting choice of words countyman, and the nub of the problem.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13852 - 18/10/2024 18:36:14    2575720

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Is Jimmy Cooney 1998 not the reference point? Refereeing error, replay?

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 19/10/2024 12:54:41    2575806

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