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Replying To Pikeman96: "@zinny - with all due respect, seems you're the one who's still failing to see something. They were entitled to look into the circumstances of the second yellow card without an objection, but not to change the award of the game. And who's to say they didn't look into that second yellow?
So for example, if they investigated and found that Murphy did indeed give somebody else's name at the time of the second booking, they could have taken disciplinary action against him. Or as previously stated, if he'd already been sent off on two yellows earlier this year and would therefore be liable for suspension if he was sent off again, they could have imposed that suspension anyway.
The word out there however is that Murphy didn't give somebody else's name. Instead, what's said to have happened is that since the referee is one of those who likes to think he knows all the players, he didn't actually ask for a name, wrongly identified Murphy himself as another Rapps player, and wrote down that other name instead.
For what it's worth, the Wexford GAA TV commentator at first wrongly identified the player for that second booking as well. And this is not a dig at Wexford GAA TV in any way - it's just to point out how such things can happen.
Anyway, still the case that if they did all that and determined why a player wasn't sent off after seeing two yellow cards, they still couldn't overturn the award of the game to the Rapparees, and order a replay instead. For the award of a game to be investigated or overturned, there has to be a formal objection." There isn't going to be a replay Pikeman. Not sure why you are still going on about one. It would still be good to know how the mistake was made in the 1st place. And whose fault it was.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 02/10/2024 17:49:45
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A bad oversight but Oulart are to be commended on their statement. Pointing out the error but I imagine recognising that they had little basis for using an appeal as an excuse for their being beaten..
Pity to see a club with such a record facing relegation too.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3221 - 02/10/2024 17:52:52
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@Viking66 - am fully aware there isn't going to be a replay! I've just been pointing out how CCC couldn't have ordered one even if they'd wanted to, because Oulart withdrew their objection.
The post you've replied to yourself has the conventional wisdom over how the mistake was apparently made in the first place. To me, seems highly likely it may be the correct explanation too.
By the way, seems like every post on this topic does that odd thing of repeating several previous posts too if you hit "post reply", so that's why I'm starting all these ones with that @ thing instead.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 02/10/2024 18:52:44
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@zinny - with all due respect, seems you're the one who's still failing to see something. They were entitled to look into the circumstances of the second yellow card without an objection, but not to change the award of the game. And who's to say they didn't look into that second yellow?
So for example, if they investigated and found that Murphy did indeed give somebody else's name at the time of the second booking, they could have taken disciplinary action against him. Or as previously stated, if he'd already been sent off on two yellows earlier this year and would therefore be liable for suspension if he was sent off again, they could have imposed that suspension anyway.
The word out there however is that Murphy didn't give somebody else's name. Instead, what's said to have happened is that since the referee is one of those who likes to think he knows all the players, he didn't actually ask for a name, wrongly identified Murphy himself as another Rapps player, and wrote down that other name instead.
For what it's worth, the Wexford GAA TV commentator at first wrongly identified the player for that second booking as well. And this is not a dig at Wexford GAA TV in any way - it's just to point out how such things can happen.
Anyway, still the case that if they did all that and determined why a player wasn't sent off after seeing two yellow cards, they still couldn't overturn the award of the game to the Rapparees, and order a replay instead. For the award of a game to be investigated or overturned, there has to be a formal objection." I said that it may not result in replay but they had a duty to investigate the circumstances of the incident which you claimed they couldn't do under the rules. If they did then let them publish the results of it - since the raps player did not get suspended either they didn't investigate it or they did and they found that the referee made a mistake. The GAA has history in this, the Kilmacud Glenn saga was again another example where they onus is put on the other team despite clear breaches of the rules. In that case the argument could be made that the officials and the team were at fault - in this one, that is not the case. Oulart like Glenn could have objected with the Raps counter objecting if a reply was ordered as they did not breach any rule. The way the GAA is working it is that a crime is only committed if the injured party complains, which ends up with the injured party being vilified for complaining.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 02/10/2024 19:54:32
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Pikeman96 you are missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm involved in admin at various different levels, and help mentor an underage team. I help out with stats also.
I know several referees personally, both club and intercounty.
I'm 100% behind the "give respect, get respect" campaign. I also know we are short probably 30-40 referees in the county, and the treatment of referees is certainly part of the problem.
But the elephant in the room is why referees are getting this treatment. Various different reasons have been put forwards, mostly laying the blame firmly at the feet of the abusers. But the subject of why some of these lads are behaving like they are is being ignored.
Plenty of people have referenced rugby officiating in various conversations I've been part of. And why rugby referees aren't abused to anything like the same extent. The comparison was even made by a referee who referees both in this county.
What GAA people are ignoring is that rugby is refereed differently, as in rugby referees by and large are more accountable for their decisions. In big games they are miked up. In smaller games they still explain their decisions, and take ownership of their decusions/mistakes. During the game captains are allowed to approach a ref and ask him to explain a decision, or put a point across. Managers are allowed to ask afterwards.
Two words spring to mind- transparency and accountability.
In the GAA there are referee assessors. Noone knows what standards/performance requirements referees are assessed on. Noone knows the penalties referees face for a poor performance. GAA referees in general dont admit to poor performances. And dont own their mistakes. There is little or no communication. Either because they arent allowed to or dont want to. By noone I mean the public, spectators, the clubs, the managers and mentors, and the players. All the sections of the GAA where the abuse of referees comes from. Basically all these parts of the GAA, who actually make up well over 99% of all the people involved in GAA, have to take it on trust, or even blind faith, that all referees are fit, well trained, know the rules of the game, will referee every game completely impartially, and will face sanctions if they fall short of any of these. Noone actually knows what any of these sanctions are. Very rarely are any contentious decisions explained. To quote someone else, we as a group of people are great at brushing awkward things under the carpet and hoping they go away. Least said, soonest mended. Maybe that attitude worked in the past. A past where most people went to mass, happy to accept bad things because they were told their betters had it all in hand. Society has changed. That attitude's frankly just not acceptable to most people these days.
If we are really serious about wanting more referees, and wanting those referees to be treated with the respect they all deserve for doing what's nearly an impossible job, then some transparency and accountability is going to have to be introduced.
Going back to my initial question, one you answered with a guess, probably a good one but still a guess-
Why wasn't the lad sent off after getting his 2nd yellow?
And asking another question-
Why has that question still not been answered by the referee, or the referees body, or their assessors body, or by any kind of official?
It's exactly that omerta which frustrates all the victims of poor officiating, more than the poor decisions themselves. And is probably a cause of some of the abuse GAA referees receive, which their rugby counterparts generally don't.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 02/10/2024 20:58:46
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Predictions for the weekend -
Intermediate-
Rathnure V Tara R- Rathnure by 8
Bunclody V Fethard- A draw - Fethard after ET
St James V Horeswood - James by 5
Alley V Askamore - Askamore by 1
Senior
Shels V Ballymurn - Ballymurn rode by fixtures with football played on Monday - 4 days to prepare for this game so you'd can only fancy the Shels despite the fact that their form has been very patchy.
Annes V Rapps- Rapps are safe , Annes have bigger goal in mind, Gypo missing also means Annes will have too much
Martins V Ferns - Martins will have too much for a Ferns team who have been inconsistent this season
Gorey V Harriers - The game of the weekend I would think , Gorey have the best balanced side in the championship IMO but the Harriers are a dangerous opponent if they find form- Gorey to prevail.
OasisorBlur (Wexford) - Posts: 51 - 03/10/2024 10:00:06
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@zinny - I never said they couldn't investigate the circumstances of the incident without an objection from Oulart. I'm simply pointing out that without an objection, they couldn't overturn the award of the game to the Rapps, and order a replay. Have been assuming all along that a replay is what Oulart were hoping for, because any other action would have meant they were still out of the championship anyway.
Again, let's say they did investigate. What action do you think they could or should have taken other than order a replay?
- The story goes that the player didn't give a false name, and instead the referee wrote down a wrong name after not asking for a name at all. So the player did nothing wrong there. Can't suspend him for that.
- Player wasn't shown a red card and ordered to leave the field. So can't suspend him in connection with that either.
- Player wouldn't normally be suspended for being sent off on two yellows, since he hadn't already been sent off this year. So there's no reason to suspend him on those grounds now either.
The one thing they could have done is not appoint the referee again for a while, but I see he's been handed one of Sunday's quarter-finals. But other than that, what do you think could or should have been done, as allowed by the Rules?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 03/10/2024 11:22:30
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@Viking66 - a good post, but mainly dealing with refereeing procedures/assessments/etc. in general rather than the specifics of the situation here. I happen to agree with much of what you say.
But to keep it to this incident and answer your questions at the end -
1. I have it on what I'd consider to be very good authority that the explanation I put forward is accurate. Ref didn't ask for a name when showing the second yellow card because he thought he already knew who the player was, and wrote down another name instead.
2. Referee assessments and results of investigations into poor performances/controversial decisions/etc. generally aren't made public. Maybe they should be, but that's a whole other issue. And you'd maybe have to consider that if they were published as a matter of course, would we ever get new referees at all? A new referee could make a few rookie mistakes in their first few games. If those reports/assessments are published, they then get a name forever of being "a bad referee", and are likely to walk away from the job again.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 03/10/2024 11:39:35
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Not sure where else to post but a massive well
Done to the organisers of the Dublin Golf Classic today .
I was in a group that played -very badly -
this morning!! All
Slots were sold out and over 50 teams played. The
General talk was how much has changed since 14/15 teams took part five or six years ago. Spoke to
Keith Rossiter briefly and he was in great form
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 188 - 03/10/2024 15:32:53
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking66 - a good post, but mainly dealing with refereeing procedures/assessments/etc. in general rather than the specifics of the situation here. I happen to agree with much of what you say.
But to keep it to this incident and answer your questions at the end -
1. I have it on what I'd consider to be very good authority that the explanation I put forward is accurate. Ref didn't ask for a name when showing the second yellow card because he thought he already knew who the player was, and wrote down another name instead.
2. Referee assessments and results of investigations into poor performances/controversial decisions/etc. generally aren't made public. Maybe they should be, but that's a whole other issue. And you'd maybe have to consider that if they were published as a matter of course, would we ever get new referees at all? A new referee could make a few rookie mistakes in their first few games. If those reports/assessments are published, they then get a name forever of being "a bad referee", and are likely to walk away from the job again." The abuse referees are getting is likely putting more people off being referees I'd say. Everyone has bad days at the office, in every walk of life. If a lad is unable to take constructive criticism of himself, in the form of an open and transparent assessment of his performance, and use that to improve his refereeing, and likewise engage with team captains and managers, then maybe he shouldn't have been appointed as a referee in the 1st place. We don't need little hitlers on power trips with big egos, we need fair and just people who want to do the best they can, learning and improving as they go along.
It's all very well saying that we need more referees, which we do, but if the procedures we are using are leading to more referees being abused, and more unsuitable people being retained as referees, which then leads to good referees getting more abuse, then the system is not fit for purpose. From every viewpoint- recruitment, initial candidate selection, renumeration, subsequent assessment of performance, referee retention, etc etc.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 03/10/2024 16:59:19
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Replying To wexfordwin: "Not sure where else to post but a massive well
Done to the organisers of the Dublin Golf Classic today .
I was in a group that played -very badly -
this morning!! All
Slots were sold out and over 50 teams played. The
General talk was how much has changed since 14/15 teams took part five or six years ago. Spoke to
Keith Rossiter briefly and he was in great form" Was that in Powerscourt?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 03/10/2024 16:59:47
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@Viking66 - I won't claim to know the whole ins and outs of the referee assessment procedure, or how critical or constructive it might be. But what I will say is this:
It's one thing to have procedures in place to hold you to account for your performance in a job, particularly if it's a public-facing role. But it's a whole other thing to then publish the findings of those procedures for the whole world to see.
For example, I'm not long finished doing performance reviews with staff who perform their duties in a fairly public way too, and I've informed them of the findings. Some good, some not so good. But I won't be publishing the findings on the company website.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 03/10/2024 20:02:17
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Replying To OasisorBlur: "Predictions for the weekend -
Intermediate-
Rathnure V Tara R- Rathnure by 8
Bunclody V Fethard- A draw - Fethard after ET
St James V Horeswood - James by 5
Alley V Askamore - Askamore by 1
Senior
Shels V Ballymurn - Ballymurn rode by fixtures with football played on Monday - 4 days to prepare for this game so you'd can only fancy the Shels despite the fact that their form has been very patchy.
Annes V Rapps- Rapps are safe , Annes have bigger goal in mind, Gypo missing also means Annes will have too much
Martins V Ferns - Martins will have too much for a Ferns team who have been inconsistent this season
Gorey V Harriers - The game of the weekend I would think , Gorey have the best balanced side in the championship IMO but the Harriers are a dangerous opponent if they find form- Gorey to prevail." Crossabeg v Shelmaliers: A potential banana skin for Shels. They need to show some resolve after last week and if they've any intentions of winning the title they should win this by 5.
Anne's v Rapparees: Hard to know if the Anne's will find the form they were in. Knockout is different and the scars from the last encounter may still be there. Without Liam Ryan Anne's to win by 2.
Martins V Ferns: The Martins will have the youth on there side and with the likes of Rory o Connor playing well they should have enough by 3
Gorey v Harriers: Again injuries may play a big part in this. If Gorey are down players Harriers will really fancy this. Think the champions will just have enough by 1 after a titanic struggle.
WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 240 - 03/10/2024 20:21:55
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Replying To Viking66: "Was that in Powerscourt?" Yeah. The weather helped but have to say it was really well done.
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 188 - 03/10/2024 22:33:07
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking66 - I won't claim to know the whole ins and outs of the referee assessment procedure, or how critical or constructive it might be. But what I will say is this:
It's one thing to have procedures in place to hold you to account for your performance in a job, particularly if it's a public-facing role. But it's a whole other thing to then publish the findings of those procedures for the whole world to see.
For example, I'm not long finished doing performance reviews with staff who perform their duties in a fairly public way too, and I've informed them of the findings. Some good, some not so good. But I won't be publishing the findings on the company website." Maybe I didn't phrase that post right. I don't know what your line of work is but the paying job most akin to proper refereeing is probably being a teacher.
If I as a parent have a problem with a decision a teacher makes, or something they do, I can talk to that teacher, ask for an explanation, get an explanation, if the teacher is wrong they can apologise, or if I'm wrong then I can.
There is then a principal, like the CCC, who can sort out a problem if it can't be sorted by having a chat.
The problem with some referees is that they don't explain their decisions, don't engage properly with players and managers and so supporters dont understand why he has reached some of his decisions either, never apologise or even admit to a mistake, and can be quite ignorant themselves.
Going back to your post, if you had an employee who in the course of his particular job was dealing with the public, your customers, but was so poor at thar job, making mistakes he felt no need to apologise for, that many of your customers had no respect for him, and maybe didn't want to be dealing with him at all, to the point that some of your customers abused him, and one of your customers actually assaulted him and got locked up for it, whose fault would that be? Would it not be his fault? And would it not be your fault also, for A, recruiting him when maybe he wasnt suitable at all for the job, for B, not training him adequately or not finding out during the course of that training that he wasnt right for the job, for C, providing no feedback to dissatisfied customers what exactly you were doing with him to try to improve the service he was giving them before they resorted to abuse and then violence, or for D, not replacing him purely because in the current market you were struggling to find people to do his job for the company?
Can't you see the damage that all that does to your company, but more importantly also to the profession/job he is doing for you?
And no wonder you would be struggling to get applicants for that particular job, when the public can see the abuse he is getting, but dont neccessarily understand why he is getting it as they havent had to deal directly with him before themselves, and you as a company keep telling the public that " theres nothing to see here".
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 04/10/2024 09:47:12
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Replying To WexMurph: "Crossabeg v Shelmaliers: A potential banana skin for Shels. They need to show some resolve after last week and if they've any intentions of winning the title they should win this by 5.
Anne's v Rapparees: Hard to know if the Anne's will find the form they were in. Knockout is different and the scars from the last encounter may still be there. Without Liam Ryan Anne's to win by 2.
Martins V Ferns: The Martins will have the youth on there side and with the likes of Rory o Connor playing well they should have enough by 3
Gorey v Harriers: Again injuries may play a big part in this. If Gorey are down players Harriers will really fancy this. Think the champions will just have enough by 1 after a titanic struggle." Annes will win by a few, more than 2, Ferns might have the man in Bailey to keep the shackles on Rory, but I still fancy Martins to win, Shels and Crossabeg are both big physical teams, neither of which are blessed with 6 scoring forwards, but I liked what I saw from Crossabeg the last day, and like you think if Shels aren't right it could be the banana skin tie for sure.
Only game I'd disagree with you on is the last. Gorey will win pulling up if they don't underestimate the Harriers. The Harriers last game will ensure that won't happen.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 04/10/2024 09:55:19
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Replying To wexfordwin: "Yeah. The weather helped but have to say it was really well done." Fair play to you! Four of our lads went up too.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 04/10/2024 11:19:47
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Replying To OasisorBlur: "Predictions for the weekend -
Intermediate-
Rathnure V Tara R- Rathnure by 8
Bunclody V Fethard- A draw - Fethard after ET
St James V Horeswood - James by 5
Alley V Askamore - Askamore by 1
Senior
Shels V Ballymurn - Ballymurn rode by fixtures with football played on Monday - 4 days to prepare for this game so you'd can only fancy the Shels despite the fact that their form has been very patchy.
Annes V Rapps- Rapps are safe , Annes have bigger goal in mind, Gypo missing also means Annes will have too much
Martins V Ferns - Martins will have too much for a Ferns team who have been inconsistent this season
Gorey V Harriers - The game of the weekend I would think , Gorey have the best balanced side in the championship IMO but the Harriers are a dangerous opponent if they find form- Gorey to prevail." I think your assertion that Ballymurn were 'rode by fixtures' is absolutely disgraceful.
The fixtures for the hurling were made ten days ago. No one knew there was going to be a storm that was going to cause the games last Sunday to be postponed. I applaud fixtures for taking decisive action early to call off the game and re fix for Monday in much better conditions. theres been plenty of times where fixtures get it wrong but in fairness this is hardly their fault.
a cheap shot.
bystanderbill (Wexford) - Posts: 45 - 04/10/2024 11:57:37
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@Viking66 - you're gone a long way now from talking about Oulart v Rapps and what could and couldn't happen under the Rule Book.
Yes, it would be good if GAA referees were accountable in the way rugby referees are, and if the team captain (for example) could talk to them during a match, or the manager afterwards. But for that to happen, all sorts of things would have to change.
And even that's a long way from actually publishing the findings of internal assessments/reviews. Going back to my own workplace, if we find that a person isn't performing satisfactorily in a customer/client-facing role, we might find that person another role, or we might have to let them go. But we wouldn't be publishing a statement anywhere that "we've moved Mary out of the front office following a series of complaints", or "we sacked Johnny today, because he just wasn't up to it".
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 04/10/2024 13:22:31
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Replying To bystanderbill: "I think your assertion that Ballymurn were 'rode by fixtures' is absolutely disgraceful.
The fixtures for the hurling were made ten days ago. No one knew there was going to be a storm that was going to cause the games last Sunday to be postponed. I applaud fixtures for taking decisive action early to call off the game and re fix for Monday in much better conditions. theres been plenty of times where fixtures get it wrong but in fairness this is hardly their fault.
a cheap shot." Just to say I agree with this. Realistically, the options were to get the games played as soon as possible after Sunday, or put the entire championships back such that they wouldn't be finished in time for Leinster. I think they made the right decision.
And just in case there's a suggestion that the Crossabeg/Ballymurn hurling match could have been put back to Sunday, by swapping it with one of the other quarter-finals that day:
After the fixtures are issued, they can only be changed if both clubs agree. St. Martin's, Ferns & Harriers all already have their second teams in action on Saturday afternoon, at different venues. Highly unlikely any of them would have agreed to switch their senior match to Saturday as well.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 04/10/2024 13:29:03
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