National Forum

Provincial Championships 2024

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Definitely suits with 3 going through. GAA HQ want to give counties some certainty over fixtures. It seems the group stage draws will be before the provincial finals again. I think that's an advantage to non finalists, they can scout the two games that their two provincial final opponents will come from."
Not sure, I fully understand - after the group draw, how do pot 3 & 4 teams have a better sense of the pot 1 & 2 teams they will play prior to the Prov Finals?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 26/04/2024 02:18:18    2540696

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Replying To omahant:  "Not sure, I fully understand - after the group draw, how do pot 3 & 4 teams have a better sense of the pot 1 & 2 teams they will play prior to the Prov Finals?"
If a 3rd seed draw "Connacht winner" they can start planning a trip West rather than Dublin, Killarney or Ulster

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 26/04/2024 08:57:10    2540702

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Replying To omahant:  "Not sure, I fully understand - after the group draw, how do pot 3 & 4 teams have a better sense of the pot 1 & 2 teams they will play prior to the Prov Finals?"
Mayo knew last year they were playing the Munster champions. Teams missing out on the provincial finals week were being given certainty instead of the jeopardy of uncertainty for missing out on the provincial finals.
On the fields of play, Tyrone and Donegal is a tough one to call. Armagh will be favourites but Down need the win for All-Ireland qualification. Kildare and Louth could go either way. Kildare need the win for All-Ireland qualification. If Down do happen to win on Saturday, Louth v Kildare is then an All-Ireland playoff. Louth are next in line after Westmeath to miss out on the All-Ireland, depending on results.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 26/04/2024 16:34:41    2540795

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Down lost to Armagh by a point. Armagh go onto the Ulster final. Down will have to plot a course through the Tailteann Cup.
Louth should be safe in the All-Ireland now. Kildare still have to win.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 27/04/2024 19:20:15    2540994

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Game today in Clones - was just like Clones - shocking !!
Referee really was out of his depth

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1685 - 27/04/2024 20:43:44    2541020

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Down lost to Armagh by a point. Armagh go onto the Ulster final. Down will have to plot a course through the Tailteann Cup.
Louth should be safe in the All-Ireland now. Kildare still have to win."
A game Down should have won, but a young Down team on the up , but jus their manager is a happy go lucky type of fella always smiling and joking fair play to him

germac (Down) - Posts: 555 - 27/04/2024 20:44:42    2541021

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Replying To cuchulainn35:  "Game today in Clones - was just like Clones - shocking !!
Referee really was out of his depth"
I suppose McGeeney would have the excuses at the ready had ye lost, referee was bad, virus in the camp, dog ate my homework etc etc.
Hard to believe Down went so long without scoring at the end.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3029 - 27/04/2024 22:02:27    2541057

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Kildare 0-13 Louth 0-17. Louth go onto to the Leinster final. Kildare are heading for the Tailteann Cup. Louth and Dublin are the only two Leinster counties to stay above Tailteann Cup level. The Tailteann is nearly becoming the answer to what the Leinster championship will be without Dublin. Westmeath and Meath have already had Tailteann success. Possibly Kildare are next?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 28/04/2024 15:43:02    2541174

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Kildare 0-13 Louth 0-17. Louth go onto to the Leinster final. Kildare are heading for the Tailteann Cup. Louth and Dublin are the only two Leinster counties to stay above Tailteann Cup level. The Tailteann is nearly becoming the answer to what the Leinster championship will be without Dublin. Westmeath and Meath have already had Tailteann success. Possibly Kildare are next?"
Leinster have 4 teams in the All Ireland.

Dublin, Louth, Meath and Westmeath (or Offaly if they beat Dublin).

This is more teams than Connacht or Munster.

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 28/04/2024 16:01:44    2541183

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Replying To skirge7:  "Leinster have 4 teams in the All Ireland.

Dublin, Louth, Meath and Westmeath (or Offaly if they beat Dublin).

This is more teams than Connacht or Munster."
Munster has 3 of 6, Connacht 3 of 5 (sorry London and New York) and Ulster has 6 of 9. Leinster has 4 of 11.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 28/04/2024 16:22:22    2541190

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Think our lads gave a great effort. Some poor game management and very tired legs effectively cost us the match. That and McShane staying on the field for so long. Jesus but how many balls did he give away or put wide in the first half?

All in all it was still another step forward for this very young team but some of those Tyrone lads are serious ballers and will only get better by going through games like today and last week.

Hopefully we can get a good run through the qualifiers.

Fair play to Donegal and good luck in the final.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts: 922 - 28/04/2024 16:26:08    2541193

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Munster has 3 of 6, Connacht 3 of 5 (sorry London and New York) and Ulster has 6 of 9. Leinster has 4 of 11."
There is 11 counties in Leinster, and only 16 places in the entire Sam Maguire competition. Leinster is never really going to have anymore than 5 or 6.

So roughly 50% participation from each province seems the norm. Obviously that's going to vary from year to year as Ulster but that seems a good target to aim for.

Connacht has 3/6 btw, you can't discount London because technically they can qualify - London got to the Connacht final in 2013 and that would qualify them. I don't think they have doomed to the Tailteann Cup like New York are

hyperache (Meath) - Posts: 251 - 29/04/2024 10:13:48    2541392

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "If a 3rd seed draw "Connacht winner" they can start planning a trip West rather than Dublin, Killarney or Ulster"
But Dublin or Kerry as near-certain Prov Champs could equally assume the group they will play in too.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 29/04/2024 13:23:48    2541477

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AIC Group Stage
Logically, Derry should be top seeds.
As third seeds, the Prov imbalance is needlessly exacerbated in the AIC group stage.
Like the Tailteann Cup, seeding could be based on league position only, with group formation separately restricted as Prov Champs and losing Finalists are kept apart like now, regardless of seeding.

Otherwise, it might be interesting to have a group stage open draw and then seed the 'KO 12' only - have a 'Rd of 12' (1v12, 2v11....6v7 etc) - 2 best winners to SFs, 4 others to QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 29/04/2024 13:57:13    2541489

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Kildare 0-13 Louth 0-17. Louth go onto to the Leinster final. Kildare are heading for the Tailteann Cup. Louth and Dublin are the only two Leinster counties to stay above Tailteann Cup level. The Tailteann is nearly becoming the answer to what the Leinster championship will be without Dublin. Westmeath and Meath have already had Tailteann success. Possibly Kildare are next?"
I would like to see Oisín and Wicklow do it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 29/04/2024 15:10:11    2541530

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Replying To omahant:  "AIC Group Stage
Logically, Derry should be top seeds.
As third seeds, the Prov imbalance is needlessly exacerbated in the AIC group stage.
Like the Tailteann Cup, seeding could be based on league position only, with group formation separately restricted as Prov Champs and losing Finalists are kept apart like now, regardless of seeding.

Otherwise, it might be interesting to have a group stage open draw and then seed the 'KO 12' only - have a 'Rd of 12' (1v12, 2v11....6v7 etc) - 2 best winners to SFs, 4 others to QFs."
The problem is that seeding being based totally on the league would give absolutely zero incentive for teams to get to a provincial final. Rightly or wrongly, the provincials are still part of the championship so it would be very odd to have the outcome of a separate competition (the league) overriding the outcome of part of the championship. Although, actually to some extent, that's already happening. For example, Cavan beat Monaghan in the championship and yet they will be in a lower seeding pot (4) to them (pot 3). It's all a bit of a mess.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 122 - 29/04/2024 15:45:02    2541541

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The problem is that seeding being based totally on the league would give absolutely zero incentive for teams to get to a provincial final. Rightly or wrongly, the provincials are still part of the championship so it would be very odd to have the outcome of a separate competition (the league) overriding the outcome of part of the championship. Although, actually to some extent, that's already happening. For example, Cavan beat Monaghan in the championship and yet they will be in a lower seeding pot (4) to them (pot 3). It's all a bit of a mess."
Maybe not crystal clear but my words below intended to keep the Prov link, with each Finalist earning a Sam "berth" albeit without a seeding influence.

"....with group formation separately restricted as Prov Champs and losing Finalists are kept apart like now, regardless of seeding...."

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 29/04/2024 18:58:14    2541609

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The problem is that seeding being based totally on the league would give absolutely zero incentive for teams to get to a provincial final. Rightly or wrongly, the provincials are still part of the championship so it would be very odd to have the outcome of a separate competition (the league) overriding the outcome of part of the championship. Although, actually to some extent, that's already happening. For example, Cavan beat Monaghan in the championship and yet they will be in a lower seeding pot (4) to them (pot 3). It's all a bit of a mess."
The problem is provincial championships are not fit for purpose and never have been. It's so absolutely ridiculous that anyone thinks they should stay.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 29/04/2024 19:51:22    2541614

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "The problem is provincial championships are not fit for purpose and never have been. It's so absolutely ridiculous that anyone thinks they should stay."
Each province is free to organise it's own championship any way it sees fit.

Whats really anyoning is Leinster counties complaining about Dublin beating them, yet allowing them play at home all the time.
Why they haven't arranged their championship to have everyone else play off for a place in the final v Dublin is beyond me.
What's the point of Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow, Longford all getting a chance to get whooped by Dublin.

Some goes for Munster and Kerry for the likes of Waterford

Ulster have an open draw which usually contains a Ulster championship contender in the prelim round. This making the whole thing down to luck. Then they all complain that it's too tough.

Each province should sort out their own championship and stop winging about how unfair the whole thing is

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 04/05/2024 17:11:14    2542847

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The problem is that seeding being based totally on the league would give absolutely zero incentive for teams to get to a provincial final. Rightly or wrongly, the provincials are still part of the championship so it would be very odd to have the outcome of a separate competition (the league) overriding the outcome of part of the championship. Although, actually to some extent, that's already happening. For example, Cavan beat Monaghan in the championship and yet they will be in a lower seeding pot (4) to them (pot 3). It's all a bit of a mess."
Very fair point CP that that's the system we have for 2024 so we'll live with it. But if Donegal or Armagh win Ulster will they be given the Anglo-Celt Cup or blazers for everyone in the squad and backroom with a 'We got top seed in the group status' badge on it? Do Galway and ourselves, already through to the round robin, not want to win the Nestor Cup? The provincial finalists status is skewing league finishing positions in terms of seedings, not the other way round. The seeding system, depending on motivation to win either, kinda diminishes both the League and the Provincials. The current system continues raising the questions 'Who really wants to win the league', Who really wants to win provincials' when qualifying for Division 1 in 2023 guarantees you an All Ireland spot in 2024.

I don't know how it could be tweaked but it's worse than the back door All Ireland for me. Not until the group games are over will we really see knockout football. And hurling are straight into intense games with the threat of missing out on path to Liam McCarthy after a few games in April and May. Too many meaningless football games to determine the final 12 teams. For the All Ireland and Small Ireland Championships.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 04/05/2024 21:29:15    2542966

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