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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "Of course, you'd be hard put to paint his contribution in the final as a disaster, or even close to that - he had an OK game - but like it or not, players are judged to an extent on their own high standards, and everyone knows that Clifford (though a combination of being well marked and as a consequence on occasion forcing it a bit) was not at his consistent best in the final. Nobody from Kerry is telling me that he played a stormer in the final. And, to get POTY, you generally need to be able to say that about someone. The reason why so much emphasis is placed on performance in finals is that the pressure in them is higher. A fine display in a final rightly gets more credit than a brilliant performance in a provincial first round. Very obvious point, but it sometimes gets forgotten in the debate ..." He was nowhere near his best and no one can say otherwise on that. However people, mostly Dubs, trying to claim he did nothing isn't right either.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1472 - 16/08/2023 13:26:45
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Most keepers have 100%kickouts when it's uncontested. I'm only giving the stats Joxer. Laois are hardly world beaters either and Dublin hardly have tough opposition in Leinster. As for the rest Dublin had Mayo and Monaghan we had Tyrone and Derry. Nitpick all you want Joxer but the stats are there. I get the feeling no matter what Shane Ryan did you would nt give him any credit eventhough you have nt seen all his games. Of course I'm bigging up my own but I did say I've no problem with Cluxton getting an all star either but Shane is up there too." Well Ciarrai, first of all Stephen didn't play against Laois. I believe the stats from the three knockout games for each goalie might paint a different picture and these games, especially the final, whether we like it or not, carry more weight.
I don't really get the stat on errors. I'm sure if you told Shane that he had zero errors and Stephen that he had 1, they'd say "are you having a laugh".
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 795 - 16/08/2023 14:12:04
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Most keepers have 100%kickouts when it's uncontested. I'm only giving the stats Joxer. Laois are hardly world beaters either and Dublin hardly have tough opposition in Leinster. As for the rest Dublin had Mayo and Monaghan we had Tyrone and Derry. Nitpick all you want Joxer but the stats are there. I get the feeling no matter what Shane Ryan did you would nt give him any credit eventhough you have nt seen all his games. Of course I'm bigging up my own but I did say I've no problem with Cluxton getting an all star either but Shane is up there too." Of course Mick. I was only pointing it out for a laugh and generally how opinionated a debate can be about POTY. A player can have stormers all year against very weak opposition and be in the mix for POTY but then face a strong team and be shackled or off form. Ryan had an ok final and I think most would say should have been sent off in the semi, a move from which he scored his point I think. On such small decisions awards are won and lost. No doubt he's a top 3 keeper with Cluxton and Beggan and did have a great season, as I've said in another post. I wouldn't have a problem if he won POTY, albeit he may have been lucky to escape red in the semi.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 16/08/2023 14:44:35
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Replying To oneoff: "So again by your logic Claxtons kickouts being a big deal is actually a myth? Seeing as Dublin have been hammering teams or this another thing that's different because it's Claxton?" I didn't say anything about Cluxton's kick-outs being a big deal but I'm sure that many experts would say that. Obviously he has triggered many an important attack with them in the past. I can't translate your second sentence so not sure what you're saying.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 16/08/2023 15:07:37
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would like to see a 'golden boot' award more recognised#. some great players have been championship top scorers down the years and didnt get close to POTY and sometimes missed all stars
Whestofthewest (Clare) - Posts: 177 - 16/08/2023 15:37:51
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Replying To Joxer: "Of course Mick. I was only pointing it out for a laugh and generally how opinionated a debate can be about POTY. A player can have stormers all year against very weak opposition and be in the mix for POTY but then face a strong team and be shackled or off form. Ryan had an ok final and I think most would say should have been sent off in the semi, a move from which he scored his point I think. On such small decisions awards are won and lost. No doubt he's a top 3 keeper with Cluxton and Beggan and did have a great season, as I've said in another post. I wouldn't have a problem if he won POTY, albeit he may have been lucky to escape red in the semi." I'm not for minute suggesting Ryan get POTY but he has a chance of an all star. As for semi getting sent off would be very harsh but should have got a yellow and a free out. If keepers are determined by opposition then neither Ryan or Cluxton have any hope although Ryan played against top opposition in the league. The top candidates then would be Beegan Morgan Patton and of course the Derry keeper.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3844 - 16/08/2023 15:43:04
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Replying To Whestofthewest: "would like to see a 'golden boot' award more recognised#. some great players have been championship top scorers down the years and didnt get close to POTY and sometimes missed all stars" I do think it should be acknowledged more, but I'd want it to be based on scores from play. Otherwise, it would just be all free-takers.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2187 - 16/08/2023 17:12:55
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Replying To Joxer: "I didn't say anything about Cluxton's kick-outs being a big deal but I'm sure that many experts would say that. Obviously he has triggered many an important attack with them in the past. I can't translate your second sentence so not sure what you're saying." Maybe go back to your comments dismissing Ryan because he was playing in Munster. I'm asking should Claxtons displays also be dismissed because of who Dublin play in Leinster. Is that simple enough for you?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1472 - 16/08/2023 17:21:54
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Replying To sligo joe: "Well Ciarrai, first of all Stephen didn't play against Laois. I believe the stats from the three knockout games for each goalie might paint a different picture and these games, especially the final, whether we like it or not, carry more weight.
I don't really get the stat on errors. I'm sure if you told Shane that he had zero errors and Stephen that he had 1, they'd say "are you having a laugh"." OK Sligo but he played against Louth and Sligo. Did he play against better or worse opposition than Shane? On errors I don't make the stats. The statisticians do that and the error I presume is the fluffed balled v Monaghan that led to a 45while Shane did nt. I would nt say either Shane or Stephen are having a laugh at the statistics but what would I know. You are very happy to have a Stat that says Cluxton had 100% in A1 final (altho one kick went straight to a Kerry player who punched it to a Dublin player) but you are unhappy with other stats. I don't make the stats. For what it's worth I find it laughable giving a keeper credit for kicking a ball a few metres to an unmarked player.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3844 - 16/08/2023 19:29:39
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "I'm not for minute suggesting Ryan get POTY but he has a chance of an all star. As for semi getting sent off would be very harsh but should have got a yellow and a free out. If keepers are determined by opposition then neither Ryan or Cluxton have any hope although Ryan played against top opposition in the league. The top candidates then would be Beegan Morgan Patton and of course the Derry keeper." Cluxton didn't play in the league though, nor against Laois in the LSFC but we know that these awards are only ever handed out following business end games anyway. He played against Louth, Kildare x 2, Roscommon, Sligo, Mayo, Monaghan, Kerry. With the exception of Sligo, no easy games there. Either are deserving of an AS and both are top 3 keepers. Cluxton's two pressure points in the final and distribution may shade it.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 16/08/2023 19:42:56
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Replying To oneoff: "So again by your logic Claxtons kickouts being a big deal is actually a myth? Seeing as Dublin have been hammering teams or this another thing that's different because it's Claxton?" Irrespective of this year's poty or all stars Stephen Cluxton is an absolute legend of the game from Rathlin to the Skelligs and for an anonymity like yourself to disrespect him by serially misspelling his name, incidentally a habit of our British invaders when they wanted to browbeat our ancestors says much about your standards. Goodnight.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 795 - 16/08/2023 19:51:40
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Replying To Joxer: "Of course Mick. I was only pointing it out for a laugh and generally how opinionated a debate can be about POTY. A player can have stormers all year against very weak opposition and be in the mix for POTY but then face a strong team and be shackled or off form. Ryan had an ok final and I think most would say should have been sent off in the semi, a move from which he scored his point I think. On such small decisions awards are won and lost. No doubt he's a top 3 keeper with Cluxton and Beggan and did have a great season, as I've said in another post. I wouldn't have a problem if he won POTY, albeit he may have been lucky to escape red in the semi." So it's all about All ireland finals now in your opinion. What about Con Ó Callaghan? He has failed now to score in 2 all ireland finals?, But he scores in the early rounds of leinster championship. Also Diarmuid Connolly a player i think was fantastic but by your logic he was nt much good. Diarmuid failed to score in 4 or 5 all ireland finals and never scored against Kerry in an all ireland final and played against them 4 times.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3844 - 17/08/2023 00:53:26
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On exactly what basis should James McCarthy win POTY over David Clifford? There's a lot of talk about Clifford's performance in the final not been good enough, but McCarthy had a stinker in the final. Arguably could have been sent off too. People have just bought into the whole McCarthy winning his 9th All Ireland narrative and it has somehow catapulted him to the top of the pile. Nonsense. Fenton or even Cluxton were Dublin's best players this year.
But how important is the final? I would say it's definitely a factor but certainly not the defining factor. The award has generally gone to a player from the winners, but not always. In 2010, despite not winning Leinster, and not even getting to the All Ireland Final - Bernard Brogan won player of the year for a couple of really good performances. He kicked 1-6 or so in the semis.
Andy Moran and Lee Keegan won it in 2016 and 2017 despite not winning the All Ireland too - again for some brilliant performances throughout.
Clifford's 2023 was similar to 2022 in terms of scoring, Kicked 0-5 against Tyrone, 0-9 in the semi-final, 0-3 in the final and directly assisted another 1-3 or so. Granted, he didn't meet his own high standards, but some of those wides he hit he rarely misses, another day he'd have hit 1-8 if he converted his chances.
Elsewhere int he championship - In the group stage, 2-4 against Louth, 1-5 against Cork and 0-8 against Mayo. Those are massive scores to be putting up. I can't think of a game this year where I watched Dublin and thought McCarthy was the defining factor. Don't get me wrong, he had a very solid year. You could say that about Clifford though, he was outstanding in the semis, absolutely roasted one of the best defenders in the country.
For me, 1: Clifford, 2: Fenton, 3: Cluxton.
hyperache (Meath) - Posts: 251 - 17/08/2023 00:59:36
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Replying To sligo joe: "Irrespective of this year's poty or all stars Stephen Cluxton is an absolute legend of the game from Rathlin to the Skelligs and for an anonymity like yourself to disrespect him by serially misspelling his name, incidentally a habit of our British invaders when they wanted to browbeat our ancestors says much about your standards. Goodnight." Jesus, that's a bit of a reach.
Maybe it's his autocorrect?
I didn't think the 'Jacks' had much issue with the British given the origin of that nickname.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5194 - 17/08/2023 09:58:20
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Replying To hyperache: "On exactly what basis should James McCarthy win POTY over David Clifford? There's a lot of talk about Clifford's performance in the final not been good enough, but McCarthy had a stinker in the final. Arguably could have been sent off too. People have just bought into the whole McCarthy winning his 9th All Ireland narrative and it has somehow catapulted him to the top of the pile. Nonsense. Fenton or even Cluxton were Dublin's best players this year.
But how important is the final? I would say it's definitely a factor but certainly not the defining factor. The award has generally gone to a player from the winners, but not always. In 2010, despite not winning Leinster, and not even getting to the All Ireland Final - Bernard Brogan won player of the year for a couple of really good performances. He kicked 1-6 or so in the semis.
Andy Moran and Lee Keegan won it in 2016 and 2017 despite not winning the All Ireland too - again for some brilliant performances throughout.
Clifford's 2023 was similar to 2022 in terms of scoring, Kicked 0-5 against Tyrone, 0-9 in the semi-final, 0-3 in the final and directly assisted another 1-3 or so. Granted, he didn't meet his own high standards, but some of those wides he hit he rarely misses, another day he'd have hit 1-8 if he converted his chances.
Elsewhere int he championship - In the group stage, 2-4 against Louth, 1-5 against Cork and 0-8 against Mayo. Those are massive scores to be putting up. I can't think of a game this year where I watched Dublin and thought McCarthy was the defining factor. Don't get me wrong, he had a very solid year. You could say that about Clifford though, he was outstanding in the semis, absolutely roasted one of the best defenders in the country.
For me, 1: Clifford, 2: Fenton, 3: Cluxton." "For me, 1: Clifford, 2: Fenton, 3: Cluxton"
Think the Clifford hype is a bit OTT
Dont think his point per game is even in the top 3
Whestofthewest (Clare) - Posts: 177 - 17/08/2023 10:38:34
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Replying To cavanman47: "Jesus, that's a bit of a reach.
Maybe it's his autocorrect?
I didn't think the 'Jacks' had much issue with the British given the origin of that nickname." Well he has used the wrong version 5 times on this thread, even twice in the same short post, and he hasn't noticed? Autocorrect??, let him clarify himself?
Deliberately calling someone the wrong name or deliberately spelling their name wrong habitually is insulting.
As regards your other point, is it your opinion that our capital is British?
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 795 - 17/08/2023 11:13:51
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Replying To sligo joe: "Irrespective of this year's poty or all stars Stephen Cluxton is an absolute legend of the game from Rathlin to the Skelligs and for an anonymity like yourself to disrespect him by serially misspelling his name, incidentally a habit of our British invaders when they wanted to browbeat our ancestors says much about your standards. Goodnight." So pointing out a misspelling is the best you can do multi account?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1472 - 17/08/2023 11:18:16
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "So it's all about All ireland finals now in your opinion. What about Con Ó Callaghan? He has failed now to score in 2 all ireland finals?, But he scores in the early rounds of leinster championship. Also Diarmuid Connolly a player i think was fantastic but by your logic he was nt much good. Diarmuid failed to score in 4 or 5 all ireland finals and never scored against Kerry in an all ireland final and played against them 4 times." It's interesting how Dubs are very quick to slat other players displays in All-Ireland finals while ignoring it when it's their own players. But of course the criteria is different when it's a Dublin player.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1472 - 17/08/2023 11:20:02
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Replying To oneoff: "Maybe go back to your comments dismissing Ryan because he was playing in Munster. I'm asking should Claxtons displays also be dismissed because of who Dublin play in Leinster. Is that simple enough for you?" What?? You think that Clare and Tipperary football teams were comparable to Kildare and Louth football teams this year? You didn't just say that did you? I'm sure ClAxton would love to be playing against Clare and Tipp footballers to win a provincial title. LOL
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 17/08/2023 11:26:18
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Replying To oneoff: "So pointing out a misspelling is the best you can do multi account?" Relax Sparky.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4734 - 17/08/2023 11:28:41
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